The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Rasputin - a universalist?

Granted Rasputin, as “The Mad Monk”, might not be the first historical personage one would want to appropriate in defense of universalism; he still presents sort of an enigma to Christianity - a licentiousness healer who, despite his obvious corruption and corrupting, was nonetheless a deeply faithful and intense man of God. Moreover, his theology, though controversial, seemed to be universalist imo, or at least tending that way.

Rasputin was reputedly a Khlyst: an offshoot of the Orthodox who believed, just as God became incarnate in Christ, that Christ was incarnate in all men and women. A corollary of this, to the Khlysty, was that nothing we do in Adam, our in our human selves, can warrant us salvation. Salvation and goodness are wholly other than our human selves on this teaching; therefore (though certainly not all the Khlysty practices can be strictly logically deducted from this insight), pride and hypocrisy are worse sins than indulgence. So, trying to free the Christ from our human selves, the Khlysty alternated in extreme asceticism (Rasputin evidently would go to a swamp, for example, all day and eat nothing and pray) to extreme indulgence (drunkenness, debauchery, free love, etc.)

Rasputin was a “holy fool” - someone who lived conspicuously oppositely than others, to demonstrate the pretentiousness and insufficiency of conventional morality. Naturally, this “holy foolery” could become justification for much that was wrong (and Rasputin no doubt went too far on many occasions, though he admitted that God had used him, “a very broken vessel”); yet, if pride is truly worse than “animal” sins (sex, drunkenness, partying), then one could see how, by being externally controversial, he was revealing our internal spiritual maladies.

Now, I don’t know if Rasputin ever speculated as to whether all people will be saved. However, being an Eastern Christian, he was more likely to believe this. Moreover, his rebuke of pride is quite similar to Christ. In fact, most of the univs. I know claim that this is the essence of Jesus’ preaching - that Christ was deadset against self-righteousness (and Christ was accused of being a drunkard and a glutton). I would never claim that Christ was as debauched as Rasputin, but I also don’t think that Christ was as squeaky clean as tradition paints Him. It just doesn’t fit with the tenor of his ministry.

What do people think (other than me being off my rocker :smiley: )?

Well to be fair the context in which Jesus was being accused of being a drunkard and glutton was in the context of John the Baptist, and the fact that he fasted and kept separate and ate only locusts and honey (I think lol) and was accused by having a demon, and Jesus then pointed that He did not fast during His ministry and had fellowship among Israel, including those who were sinners and tax-collectors, and was was being accused of being a drunkard and a glutton, as John had been of having a demon. In both cases, they were being accused of being unclean and not maintaining the proper badges that marked Israel out as the redeemed people of God, of keeping separate and maintain necessary distinctions to maintain holiness and live as people of God so Yahweh would return and forgive Israel’s sins and defeat the pagan nations and bring redeem Israel, in-bringing His Kingdom. Of course, the gospel and NT portray holiness or purity as something to keep from being contaminated, but rather it now goes the other way, holiness makes unholiness clean, so Jesus is not made unclean by the leapers, He cleanses them, and when He fellowships with sinners (as seen in the eyes of Israel, those who had abandoned or comprised and were not maintain the proper badges and living as God’s elected people) He cleansed and forgave them (as with Zaccheaus or the woman who anointed him with oil (and interesting side-note, that was a priestly act, so it’s significance and shock Jewish readers would have at that, of a unclean women of all people, doing that and given that role is lost on us 21st century Western readers). So even if you aren’t sure of Jesus sinlessness, it definitely isn’t really the same thing here, at least not what the NT documents are talking about as such, He is unpredictable and outrageous and revolutionary, far more then any of us would like sometimes (and in different ways to :wink: ) so it is not exactly the same thing, as Jesus was confronting evil and hurt at all levels and bringing healing and redeeming justice, Rasputin’s ideas are to give into it would expose it, but that kind of collusion with what de-humanises people is a but muddled to me, and only adds to leaving people hurt (not least the women he used). Afterall, if I stole from you and mugged you, to prove stealing and mugging was wrong, I’m not sure you would think I was doing you a favour :wink: .

It does remind of of some of the situations going on in Corinth that Paul was facing, though there it was based on the idea some seem to have got that the resurrection had already happened, or that there was none, so what they did in their bodies didn’t matter, only spiritual experiences, and his trying to deal with that and with the alternative strategy some were trying to apply of enforcing the old Jewish badges and distinctions to attempt to deal with the problems. Not quite the same idea as the Khlyst had, though it sounds that they might have some common ground with some neo-Calvinist formulations (in that humans are helpless in Adam, and were are all reprobates who can do nothing without God’s special grace, hmm interesting connection, was Rasputin a proto-Calvanist O_O I’m just kidding lol). Still no matter what, he is an interesting figure, it really a but muddled in his ideas in opinion, which then lead him to cause significant harm, but perhaps he did tend towards univeralism, still I think from what I am seeing in Orthodox teaching, most Christians in the Eastern churches would react to Khlysty ideas, particularly as modeled by Rasputin, with horror as a tragic twisting of Orthodox understanding, particularly those who are hopeful to full univeralists in their theology and thinking. But then it’s not like Western Christianity doesn’t have a long history of very weird cults and such as well, we humans are an odd lot, it is sometimes amazing that God not only puts up with us, but loves us like He does :slight_smile: .

(and completely irreverently, and in no way to disrespect the serious nature of the discussion at all, and it isn’t part of my response, but I can’t leave a thread about Rasputin without posting a Boney M link : youtube.com/watch?v=SYnVYJDxu2Q :wink: not part of the discussion, sorry I couldn’t resist :wink: )

Ah, Rasputin, Russia’s greatest love machine. Now there was a cat that really was gone.

A fascinating person, but from what I can tell - which isn’t much, admittedly - it’s very hard to distinguish the fact from the fiction about his life. And specifically as regards his religious beliefs, his daughter wrote a memoir about him, imaginatively titled Rasputin, My Father, in which, it seems, she denies that he was ever actually a member of the Khlysty sect. Certainly the extremely accurate Hammer Films’ 1966 biopic, starring Sir Christopher Lee in the title role (so uncannily true to history it could almost be classified as a documentary) makes no mention of the Khlysty. Still, it would be nice to think he had Universalist leanings.

Oh, those Russians …

Do svidaniya!

Johnny

Weren’t there also fun tales about his near immortality? I’m sure there were numerous poisoning attempts and possibly some shooting that he walked away from?
a Fascinating character anyway…
I do think he missed that bit in Romans?] where Paul said that we shouldn’t sin JUST to make grace abound…

Yes James :smiley: he did kind of scare the wits out of his assassins by refusing to die :laughing:

The Russian Fools for Christ/Yurodivye - the orthodox ones – were not on the whole known for sexual licentiousness. Rather they would live in filth, do outrageous things like chucking eggs at the Church Congregation during the Eucharist and ranting in the market place in gibberish on Holy Days, but at the same time be very gentle to animals and refuse food from anyone but the poor etc… Raspustin played on the Holy Fool myth and charisma – but didn’t quite fit the mould.

The Khlysty are one of a number of groups known as ‘The Spirituals’ that arose from Russian Orthodoxy and rejected the authority of the Church hierarchy for a belief in the direct access of each believer to the Spirit. Their worship included ecstatic dancing and speaking in tongues. They also practised self flagellation. Other ‘Spiritual’ sects had their own distinctive emphases too – Molokans drank milk during the fast of Great Lent, the Dukhobors were Adamite nudists, the Skoptsy practised self castration to be like angels while yet alive in the flesh.

The Khlysty were rumoured to sometimes take part in orgies - by their enemies – but whether or not this is true is difficult to say.
As for the eschatology of these sects they may well have been exclusivist believing in the election of sect members only.
Dear old Rasputin was accused of being a Khlysty – but according to his daughter denied this (as Johnny says above - and I missed his far more exciting post first time around :blush:). He had many enemies for good reasons.

Och well – that’s’ all I know for sure. :slight_smile:

Night Revan I watched a documentary on Boney M last year (saddo :open_mouth: ). Apparently the pneumatic male member of the band doesn’t actually sing on the records; that’s the voice of the German producer. He’s in the band because he’s nifty on his pins. And indeed he is :laughing:

That is interesting (as is yours and Johnny’s information on Rasputian and the Khysty above), so he isn’t responsible for the deep voice, but he does have the moves :wink: lol

He’s crazy like a (holy) fool; what about Daddy cool?

Thanks Prince that was fun - I believe one of the assassins of Rasputin was a Russian Prince. Is there anything you want to tell us? :laughing: ( And I am joking :wink: )

Sobornost,

No… I wasn’t around in 1917 :smiley: . Johnny Parker was talking about Rasputin’s daughter’s bio. I believe the Prince you are talking about, Prince (or Grand Duke?) Felix Yusupov, incredibly wealthy (evidently the Yuzupovs, relatively speaking, were as wealthy as any royal family in the last several hundred years), and a handsome hedonist (tho he didn’ t consider the hypocrisy for judging Rasputin’s immoderations) wrote a bio of Rasputin as well, entitled Why I killed Rasputin.

Yuzupov’s tale (where they lure Rasputin to a party on pretenses of a liaison with a relative of Yuzupov, and then poisoned the eclairs and Madeira, shot him and threw him in the river) interesting side ?. Undoubtedly Rasputin had some sort of miraculous powers. Even when the recovered his body from the frozen river, his corpse was frozen in a struggle (after he’d been poisoned and shot who knows how many times!). Couple this with his ability to heal the Tzarevich, and you have some pretty impressive, fairly documented miracles. Perhaps he had some sort of calming affect from his mysticism, perhaps he had cirrhosis of the liver and this insulated from the effects of the poison… but these explanations are a bit reaching. I think the miracles of Rasputin may be among the best documented in history. In fact, few people denied his powers, even his detractors and assassins such as Yuzupov, but they just claimed the source of his power was Satan instead of God.

Assuming the veracity of these miracles, is it possible that they were from God? Rasputin admitted constantly that he was a “broken vessel”, that God had given him gifts in excess of his ability to manage them. Would this fit Jesus/Paul’s claim that God chooses the humble to confound the wise and worldly?

Johnny Parker,

That Hammer video (you are English, right?, so ur probably are familiar with all the Hammer flix? they’re pretty big in the States too among people who enjoy cheesy, but period and intensely acted, horror movies, I love Christopher Lee’s Draculas) - Rasputin “The Mad Monk” is great! I love the scene where he dances after winning the drinking contest or when they drag him back to the monastery in the beginning after he severs a guy’s hand with a scythe (though he also healed a woman from a great sickness) and he tells his Superior (I don’t know Orthodox term for an Abbot) that cloistered in the monastery he couldn’t really sin, so he had to go out and really sin. But, I do think that film (I can’t tell from ur post if your were being-tongue-in-cheek) portrays him as decidedly evil, where the historical evidence, if you split biographical evidence b/w his daughter’s book and, say, the book by Felix Yuzupov, is divided. Certainly he wasn’t mostly or wholly good by any conventional definition, but he might have been good according to Kierkegaard’s defintion of a good man, as someone who is aware of how bad they can be and readily admits it instead of hypocritically judging others.

Hi Prince - I don’t know enough about Rasputin to say. He obviously had great charisma and people with the quality can work ‘miracles’ I understand. He seems to have had hypnotic skills also. There is nothing wrong with charisma – but it can be used for both good and ill. It sound as if he didn’t completely know how to handle his natural gifts – and he did have self awareness about this. I wonder what his miracles were and if they actually left people free to be themselves and no dependent on Rasputin and his charisma?

Rasputin had self knowledge about being a ‘broken vessel’ – but did he act with humility towards others because of this self knowledge?
I think Paul’s claim is about the foolish wisdom of the incarnate Lord and his embrace of the cross.

Interesting stuff about Prince Yuri Yusopov :smiley:

If you are interested here is the link to an essay by Berdyaev, a Russian Christian Universalist, on the sectarians and Spiritual Christians in pre-revolutionary Russia.

berdyaev.com/berdiaev/berd_l … _252a.html

His essay suggests strongly that these Russian sectarians had a sectarian idea of salvation.

The wiki article on Rasputin has two interesting parts regarding this thread -

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Ra … ontroversy

(disputes his affiliation to Spiritual sectarianism)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Ra … assination

(pours strong doubts on the accounts of his assassination)

Hi Prince

Indeed I am English, and indeed I am a big - make that massive - Hammer Film fan :smiley: . (Don’t know if you spotted it, but my current avatar is the late, great Peter Cushing, in one of his best roles in the Amicus portmanteau horror movie Tales From the Crypt.) In fact, I was lucky enough to meet Christopher Lee about 20 years ago. I interviewed him about a talking book version of Dracula he had done.

But much as I love Hammer, I have to admit they weren’t the most assiduous in being faithful to their source material. Lee has often bemoaned the liberties they took with the Dracula character - to the point where he eventually refused to do any more Dracula movies (although the cycle was moribund by then anyway). And Rasputin: the Mad Monk is no exception. History it ain’t :smiley:!

I think Lee’s portrayal of Rasputin is more nuanced than many give him, and the film, credit for. But ultimately Rasputin is ‘the bad guy’, and bad guys always come to a sticky end in Hammer films: right up until their bitter end, when Lee bowed out of horror films for good in Hammer’s 1976 horror swansong To the Devil a Daughter (a truly terrible film), good always triumphed decisively over evil - in stark contrast to the modern, and utterly deplorable trend for horror movies to end either ambiguously or with evil untamed and undefeated.

Whether the real Rasputin was ‘good’ in some Kierkegaardian sense is a question I don’t think we have enough reliable, independent evidence to answer definitively. But there’s no doubt he had some strange, seductive power. And where, I wonder, did that come from?

Cheers

Johnny

Hi Johnny -

‘To the Devil a Daughter’ was based on a novel by Dennis Wheatley. I read a biography of Wheatley once. He was basically a Manichean in his religious views and a complete and utter fruit and nut case :laughing:

Sobornost,

Thanks for the links! Very interesting…

Johnny,

Yes, I noticed your Cushing pic :smiley:

Glad you enjoyed them Prince :smiley: