The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Redemption from the lake of fire?

Evangelical Universalism
#1

Universalism is a radical shift in thinking from the traditional approach to hell. It is very appealing and seems to resolve a number of apparent contradictions that a belief in “eternal torment” produces.

Universalists are quick to point out that hell is never mentioned in the Old Testament. However, if Universalism is true, it is also striking that the New Testament, and especially the book of Revelation, does not mention souls repenting and being redeemed from the lake of fire.The mere mention of one person being plucked from their torment, having their name added to the Lamb’s book of life, and entering the city of God would shed so much light on this subject.

- Why doesn't God explicitly state that such a thing will necessarily happen? 

- Does not the absence of such a statement undermine the Universalist view?
Mt. 25:46
Mt. 25:46
#2

Indeed! My arguments precisely! :smiley: It absolutely undermines the Universalist view…along with the sin that Jesus said “HAS NEVER FORGIVENESS” to blaspheme the Holy Ghost with UNBELIEF! Mark 3:28-29. Heb 6:1-6; 10:26-29.

No where in the bible does it record souls being redeemed from the lake of fire after the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15. No where in the bible does it record souls being redeemed from hades or hell. UR’s twist scripture in Rev 21 and 22 in a desperate attempt to hold on to this man made doctrine. I pray you can open their eyes to be teachable and show them their error. Praise God!

#3

I have already visioned Mr.Pratt, and Sonia grabbing for their tap shoes, so you they can begin tap dancing around this dilema that flies in the face of UR. :laughing: :laughing:

#4

That is because the Lake of Fire is nothing to repent from, and has nothing to do with ‘hell’.

#5

Since Aaron doesn’t believe that everyone will be salted with fire, which is something (for him) to escape from, rather than go through, he is not going to understand a word of what you just said. When the Gospel speaks universally - he finds ways to exclude himself or others. Uber-belief is its own idol.

#6

Firedup,
These things have just been discussed at length, so I’m sure folks are less than eager to hash it all over again. It might make for better discussion if you take a look at those other threads first, and come back with some comments on the arguments made there.

Here’s some of them:
evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=945&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=931&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
[JRP on the Final Chapters of John’s Revelation)
[On the Final Chapters of RevJohn (“Hostile Witness” version))

Sonia

#7

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: I knew it…tap dancing again, huh Sonia? You did not answer me in those discussions…give firedup biblical answers to his questions, Sonia! :laughing: What a joke! :unamused:

Can any UR’s step up and answer firedup’s post biblically? Answer this post: Universalists are quick to point out that hell is never mentioned in the Old Testament. However, if Universalism is true, it is also striking that the New Testament, and especially the book of Revelation, does not mention souls repenting and being redeemed from the lake of fire.The mere mention of one person being plucked from their torment, having their name added to the Lamb’s book of life, and entering the city of God would shed so much light on this subject.

  • Why doesn’t God explicitly state that such a thing will necessarily happen?

  • Does not the absence of such a statement undermine the Universalist view?

#8

Aaron, do you imagine that we are intimidated by your comments or something? You sure seem to bounce and skip around as if we are. Nothing could be further from the truth, except for the meager few (don’t even know if they exist here) who have just begun to try to look into the matter of universal reconciliation. Thing is, the evidence is so astounding to anyone with a head for the truth that it takes very little time for them to be confident of this belief, nothing more than the stripping away of bark.

#9

Let’s bring the whole thing to and end.

Aaron37 is not convinced of the truth or validity of the arguments provided by board members here that none will eventually be lost. He is particularly convinced by there being no direct mention of anyone repenting after being thrown into the lake of fire.

Universalists here are not convinced of the truth and validity of the arguments provided by Aaron37 as to the truth that not all persons will be saved. They are not convinced by there being no direct mention of anyone repenting after being thrown into the lake of fire - this is due in part to the testimony of other parts of scripture but also in part to passages in the book of Revelation that deal with different groups being able to enter the New Jerusalem and partake of the living waters (and some other stuff).

After a long time of trading arguments on this and other subjects it is blatantly obvious that Aaron isn’t going to convince the Universalist and that the Universalists aren’t going to convince Aaron so I see no point in either side continuing with this as it is going around and around in circles. Once the arguments have been put (time and time again) and then endlessly (oh! the irony of that word :wink: ) regurgitated with no change of mind on either side then it’s time to move on.

Maybe as a last resort we should do what is sometimes done in school debating societies which is to get the proponents of 2 sides of a debate to argue for the opposition’s premise and not their own :smiling_imp: So for example we could have a thread entitled something like ‘Will God save all people?’ - Aaron37 would argue for the motion and a universalist (Jason maybe) would argue against (complete with opening statements and rebuttals and closing remarks - and no interference from the rest of us).

#10

Really, then respond to firedup’s post and answer the questions biblically, Justin. Put scripture where your mouth is.
Universalists are quick to point out that hell is never mentioned in the Old Testament. However, if Universalism is true, it is also striking that the New Testament, and especially the book of Revelation, does not mention souls repenting and being redeemed from the lake of fire.The mere mention of one person being plucked from their torment, having their name added to the Lamb’s book of life, and entering the city of God would shed so much light on this subject.

  • Why doesn’t God explicitly state that such a thing will necessarily happen?

  • Does not the absence of such a statement undermine the Universalist view?

#11

Respond to firedup’s post biblically or don’t respond, Jeff. :wink:

#12

Gehenna isn’t even the fire we are salted with. :wink:

Gehenna was a symbol for a coming judgment, for as long as the desecrated valley burned it remained a symbol of a coming judgment. It served as a warning by throwing the bodies of dead criminals, garbage, feces, carcass of animals, etc. to remind them of what was coming because they had turned from the Lord and sacrificed to other gods. There was nothing to repent from because the judgment was already in action. If the fires still burn, that means the judgment has yet to take place, but if the fires are out (which they are) then the judgment has already come to pass.

It had nothing to to do with an eternal destiny, it had to do with a particular people. It had nothing to do with where ‘unbelievers’ go when they die, it was a judgment that was caused by the unbelieving Hebrew people who were going to see everything God gave them, taken and given to the Gentiles and the people who were not His people would then be called Sons of God.

Still too many people thinking that Gehenna has to do with afterlife punishment or reformation, or something. When it simply was a ticking clock symbolizing salvation to all humanity because of the disobedience of Israel.

Romans 11:30-32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Just as you who were at one time [regarded] disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

It will take a awhile for that to sink in.

#13

A37 aka Firedup,

I’ll give you a concrete example of somebody being saved from hellish suffering. You leave the board permanently. Our suffering will end and you’ll have your example.

Just a thought.

(Oh wait, let me put a smiley face here to magically make everything I wrote nice and cumfy to insulate myself from any accusation of rudeness … :slight_smile: … there, all better now.)

Tom

#14

Don’t you ever dare to tell me what I can and can’t respond to.

#15

Funny how firedup2000 posts the topic and then it’s only Aaron37 who has responded to the Universalists - seems firedup2000 (I shan’t descend to the level of calling him FU2 for shorthand convenience) isn’t interested in the replies to his own thread.

Firedup2000 isn’t your alter ego is he Aaron37?

Of course we know nothing about you firedup - perhaps you’d like to tell us about yourself over in the Introductions section.

#16

Tom, you are a typical rude, arrogant Universalist that has nothing to offer other than erroneous comments. Your behavior is very disappointing and immature, but what do you care. :wink:

#17

Nope, not me. :wink:

#18

Seems we’ve all been rather jaded by our experience with Aaron37… Firedup may well be genuinely interested in these questions, and simply had the misfortune to arrive here on the heels of A37’s travesty of a ‘discussion’ on the same questions. Perhaps he will reply once he’s read through the previous discussions which I referred him to–or perhaps he’ll find those discussions sufficient in themselves.

In spite of Aaron37’s mocking accusations that we have not provided scriptural support for our position, I think we did cover the issues fairly thoroughly. :sunglasses:

An intro from firedup would be welcome!

Sonia

#19

Travesty? Maybe for you and your mentor because you were presented with challenges that you had no biblical answer for.

You did not provide scriptural support for the very same challenges I presented to you and your mentor that firedup has presented. Your mentor, Jason Pratt has already declared…Paraphrasing… No where in the bible is this recorded…So, why don’t you stop with the tap dancing games, Sonia.

#20

No, it’s a ‘travesty’ because of your unwillingness to engage with the arguments being made.

And, actually, I did provide scriptural support–as anyone who reads my posts will easily see. BTW, I also explained to you that I could not honestly call Jason my ‘mentor’ at this time–though I do respect his abilities and mostly agree with what I’ve read of his posts, and I told you who could qualify as such in my life. Perhaps you forgot–or perhaps you think I’m lying. I’ve been a universalist for nearly 5 yrs now, and only known of Jason’s existance for 8 months.

Aaron, I would like to see your answer to Roofus’ question here.

Firedup–I’m sorry your thread has been so derailed. If you come back to discuss more, I guess you better start another thread. :frowning:

Sonia