The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Rejected by the orthodox church

Practices Church
#21

Aaron37: “All due respect”

With all due respect I respond to you, Aaron. For quite a few years I too believed as you now believe, taught what you now teach, walked where you now walk. For this reason, I am patient with those that still believe that God will burn alive most of his creation eternally. Without a doubt, there is not a doctrine taught anywhere that distorts the character of God more than charging Him with such sadistic behavior, as well as making Him out to be the ultimate failure. Nevertheless, with all due respect, I ask you to seriously consider the consequences and the far reaching ramifications of the eternal hell premise.

Aaron37: “Not only do you lift up 1Tim 4:10 out of continuity of verses 1-9, but you have put words in the Lord Jesus’ mouth that he did not say.”

Aaron, I merely quoted the words of the inspired Paul. I Timothy happens to be one of the books I committed to memory when I was 19 years old, so I am not ignorant that there are other truths alluded to in the injunction, “these things command and teach.” Having said this, the following contextual truth still remains:

“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.These things command and teach.”

I might also ask you where in the above passage does it state that God is the “potential” Saviour of all men? If He saves only a handful of humanity, is he really the saviour of all? If a fireman saves 5% of the perishing from a burning building, could it be said of him that he is the saviour of all?

Aaron37: “My prayer is not only for you, Larry, but everyone on this discussion board”

I welcome your prayers Aaron, as I will pray for you. I’m sure that most on this board would welcome your prayers as well. I am convinced that the “effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”

Aaron37: “but everyone on this discussion board who believes in or teaches any false doctrine ( including UR) to come to their senses and repent, and return to sound biblical doctrine.”

Is there any teaching that makes less sense than the eternal torment teaching? His love is infinitely above and beyond ours and yet he chooses to roast billions alive forever! Sir, that’s nonsense!

You would agree that God longs to save all. Yet after the cross, the resurrection, His ascension, His mediatorial work, His reigning until EVERY enemy is made the footstool of his feet. Yes, after all God could do he salvages only a meager percentage of those for whom Christ died. What nonsense!

“Come now and let us reason together, saith the Lord.”

Aaron37:
“Btw, this is why we have so many denominations and cults…people trying to interpret the bible with the mind of their flesh”

Are you insinuating that I have not the Spirit? Jude 19) If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his says Romans 8. Aaron, are you saying that all who believe that God will indeed save the whole world as he wills are lost? I’m curious as to which denomination has the Spirit according to Aaron?

Aaron37: “lifting up verses individually out of continuity and making doctrine out of them. Sound familiar, Larry? Geeesh, for the love of God, do not start another denomination out of the flesh.”

Yes, it sounds familiar, for I did so for 20 years. In order to stay in harmony with the eternal torment theology, it was necessary that I do violence to His Holy Word! May God forgive me of doing so.

Aaron37: " Geeesh, for the love of God, do not start another denomination out of the flesh."

Aaron my dear brother, the love of God is the very reason that I must proclaim the glad tidings! How could I remain criminally silent with an understanding of the love of God?

“For the LOVE OF CHRIST constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

Blessings.

Larry

#22

Larry

Most cults ( Jehovah’s witness, Mormons, etc) claim to have an inside track on God’s love…God’s plan of salvation, etc…yet UR’s claim to have the same thing… I would guess less than 1% of Christianity believe in UR…hmmmmm. Red Flag! Let that sink in a little bit.

God bless,
Aaron

#23

Thank you rainzbow. I sincerely appreciate the info and suggestions. Perhaps I could find a limited fellowship among some of those you mentioned.

As far as reading WIDELY through the theologians, I can assure you that the teachings of their theologians doesn’t necessarily trickle down to the preachers, much less the parishioners. I have yet to find a single denomination in my area (that uses the bible as it’s authority) that are in any sense sympathetic to UR.

In spite of my universalism, I would rather attempt assembling with those that use the scriptures as their authority and believe in the necessity of the new birth, than those that trash the bible and “lean to their own understanding.”

Let’s get this great truth out of the closet and “go tell it on the mountain, over the hills and everywhere!”

Larry

#24

And what? You think Lutherans and the Orthodox don’t use the bible as its authority??? No wonder you’re out on the street. Sheesh.

#25

“As far as reading WIDELY through the theologians, I can assure you that the teachings of their theologians doesn’t necessarily trickle down to the preachers, much less the parishioners. I have yet to find a single denomination in my area (that uses the bible as it’s authority) that are in any sense sympathetic to UR.”

My point (in the above paragraph) was that there are no bible believing churches in my community that have any sympathy towards the belief in UR.

"In spite of my universalism, I would rather attempt assembling with those that use the scriptures as their authority and believe in the necessity of the new birth, than those that trash the bible and “lean to their own understanding.”

My point (in the above paragraph) was that I would rather fellowship with bible based churches (which deny UR) than attend with those that do not use the scriptures as their source of belief (though accepting UR)

I am quite aware that the Greek Orthodox as well as the Lutherans use the scriptures as their source.

#26

Larry

you said: My point (in the above paragraph) was that there are no bible believing churches in my community that have any sympathy towards the belief in UR.

Aaron: Ya don’t say… Bingo… you have answered your own dilema…“There are no bible believing churches that have sympathy towards the belief in UR” That is because UR is nowhere in the bible for your community churches to believe in it…Again, less than 1% of Christians believe in UR…sure you can throw together some verses and take them out of context, but the BIBLE believing Christians ( that intrepret scripture line upon line and precept upon precept) know too much of the truth to fall for taking scriptures out of context.

God bless,
Aaron

#27

RanRan, the early Christian church, the Roman Catholic Church, the Reformers, etc all bapized infants. Why? Because they believe that baptism replaces circumcision as the sign to mark out a child for God. The various sects have different versions of what actually happens at this event. All three of these groups hold to various versions of biblical inerrancy and have sought answers to the question of how baptism should be adminstered in the scriptures, and have done so in good faith. It is not a clear issue. Sure, the biblical authors are unclear enough that you can force a nice little proof text your way as well. Jesus Christ came to save, not test us on our ability to harmonize scriptures and create proof texts. I wouldn’t worry about when people have been baptized.

#28

You are the one taking things out of context if you don’t consider the genres that the Biblical writers were writing in (apocalypse? letter? history? poem?), their assumptions, their biases based on their own particulars, their setting, their audience, etc. The Bible is not a book of prophetic writings meant to be decoded solely by the wit of Aaron37, twenty-first century pentecostal.

#29

Aaron37, you proclaim your personal insight into the new birth with quite a loud trumpet, but this in itself does not imply that you have the pedigree to back up your statements.

Remember what Jesus told his disciples James and John when they asked if he wanted them to call down fire from heaven on the dirty unremorseful hard-headed unbelievers? “You do not know what spirit you are of.” He kept trying to teach them mercy, but they were just all too willing to make those who didn’t agree with them suffer.

Just something to think about, bro.

#30

Steller

I’m glad you bring up Luke 9:51-54. Why do you think Jesus said " Ye know not manner of spirit ye are of" The spirit Jesus was referring to was their spiritual dead or sinful nature spirit. You see, James and John had not been born again or made spiritually alive because Jesus had not gone to the cross. James and John reacted out of their spiritually dead or sinful nature spirits. This is the primary reason for Jesus going to the cross…to set mankind free from the power of sin and the sin nature. You go from death to life when you put your faith in Jesus’ sacrifice…you are spiritually born again with the very life and nature of God himself in your spirit. Glory to God.

God bless,
Aaron

#31

Rain

Interpreting the bible is simple… You don’t have to be a theologian or bibical scholar to properly interpret the bible…all you do is interpret line upon line and precept upon precept and do not lift verses individually out of continuity or context and you will come to the meaning. When one does this…UR cannot stand because the verses that were lifted up individually to support UR are put back in continuity with the rest of the chapter and the original meaning comes to fruition… UR exits because of bad exegesis of scripture.(.lifting verses out of context) This is how all false doctrine are started.

God bless,
Aaron

#32

And you no longer talk all day about how others are condemned or judge them. Right?

#33

AMEN!! I don’t have words enough to express how I praise God for teaching me these things. I was a Bible-believing-reading-studying Christian for nearly 30 years before I became aware of the teaching of UR in scripture. Funny how one can read the passages over and over and be blind to what they are saying! I had the passages memorised, sang of it in hymns, and never noticed–

(A young and ardent Calvinist friend of mine posted that hymn on her blog recently with high praise :exclamation: )

I’ve been convinced for several years now that God’s plan to reconcile all things in Christ is the plain and obvious teaching of scripture. And I am glad it was hidden from me for so long, because now I rejoice in it all the more! I’m humbled that I just read right over the passages for so long without seeing it–that goes to show the power of indoctrination by systematic theologies! There was once–about 15 years ago–when I was studying Romans–where I brought ch 11 to my husband and said ‘doesn’t it look like Paul is saying that all the Israelites will be saved? but how could that be? He must just mean all the ones living at a certain time–but it sure sounds like he saying all of them!’ :laughing: :laughing:

Sonia

#34

Sonia

All due respect, your a perfect example of people interpreting scripture who use the “because it sounds like” approach. I’m sorry, but you do not interpret scripture with the “sounds like” approach. The “sounds like” approach is using the mind of your flesh to interpret scripture to say what you want it to say. Romans chapter 9,10,11 flow in continuity…when you interpret line upon line and precept upon precept you will see that your “sounds like” interpretation of Romans 11:26 is wrong.

God bless,
Aaron

#35

LOL, A37–with all due respect–I am aware that Rom 11 is the culmination and climax of the entire first 11 chapters of that letter, and I was also aware of that fact at the time I mentioned above. My point above–which you seem to have either missed or chosen to ignore–was that I was at that time perfectly willing to ignore what I understood and acknowledged Paul to be saying because I was convinced that he couldn’t possibly mean what he said.

In other words I was willing to twist or reject what I understood scripture to be saying because I was unwilling to believe that the systematic theology I had been taught could be in error. Therefore, at that time I rejected the plain and clear teaching of scripture in favor of the teachings of men. I didn’t realize that I was doing this (and would have been shocked and offended if someone had told me I was!) – but that is what it comes down to.

With all due respect, you seem to be implying that anything you happen to disagree with is the result of ‘the mind of the flesh’ interpreting scripture. Is that what you believe? Are you sure your ‘mind of flesh’ is not biasing your understanding? Are you infallible in your understanding, Aaron? Are you certain that your ability to understand truth is so far beyond the rest of us here? What exactly gives you this certainty?

When it finally dawned on me that UR might possibly be true, I felt like I had been whacked over the head with a big stick. I had to do that to a young goat of mine yesterday. He was stunned for a moment, staggered a few steps and stood there wobbling–obviously re-evaluating his entire world–and I thought, “I know what that feels like.”

Anyway, I’ve spent too much time talking here already today–I’m off to do some living…

With all due respect :wink: … and may the Lord bless you this day,
Sonia

#36

Sonia

By no means have I arrived being a bible scholar, and yes, I have entangled myself into some false doctrine ( by trusting in man and lifting up verses out of context). Since then… I have learned how to properly interpret scripture line upon line and precept upon precept and relying on the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me into all truth… If we all were being led by the Holy Spirit there would be no denominations or cults, or UR.

Sonia, UR exists because people take verses out of context to put their own interpetation to them. Every verse that you believe supports UR if you were to put them back into context your interpretation would disappear.

God bless,
Aaron

#37

Larry, you are not alone. I can’t even have the discussion with my wife.

#38

Nimble

No offense, but Praise God for your wife! Stay anchored in the truth Mrs. Nimblewill! (Jude 3)

God bless,
Aaron

#39

My Dear Aaron,

You are guilty of the very mistake you warned us about. You have taken your proof-text out of context. I would not want to use Isa. 28 as my guide for scriptural study for the following reasons:

  1. The words “sav lasav, sav lasav, kav lakav, kav lakav, zeer sham, zeer sham” lead to one falling backward, being broken, snared, and taken.

  2. The words are elementary, even childish.

The word “tsav” “signifies a little precept, such as is suited to the capacity of a child.” (Adam Clarke)

“And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
For ye are yet carnal:”

“Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.”

“When I became a man, I put childish things.”

sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav

"The phrase ‘precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little’ is built up from very small one-syllable words, repeated systematically, parrot-fashion.

In Hebrew, this verse sounds as though one person is saying a letter or word, then someone else is repeating it back. This is repeated for the other phrases. It is as though someone is monotonously learning the Tanakh – without care or understanding, simply repeating what they are told to say or believe.

This is the meaning of the verse. It is a warning against learning the Torah or Tanakh with no understanding – as an academic exercise, with the heart far from YHWH, without caring what it really means, simply repeating what you are taught by tradition." allthingshebrew.com

  1. The message was given to the drunken prophets that would NOT hear the Word Of The Lord.

Notice below that BECAUSE they would not hear his words regarding the resting place, then the word of the Lord to them would will become “line upon line…”

"to whom he said,
“This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
and, “This is the place of repose”—
but THEY WILL NOT LISTEN

   So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
   Do and do, do and do,
   rule on rule, rule on rule;
   a little here, a little there—
   so that they will go and fall backward,
   be injured and snared and captured."

Aaron, I don’t point this out to shame you. My hope is that you will realize that you (like myself) are not infallible in your understanding. I can produce many clear passages that when taken contextually cannot but teach the greater hope which we affirm and you so vehemently deny.

Aaron, are you willing to even consider the possibility that God may indeed save all those for whom Christ died? If you answer is yes, then we have made invaluable progress.

Blessings,

Larry

#40

Larry

Sigh…Larry … Isaiah 28:9-10 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little.

This is how God wants us to interpret the word of God to understand doctrine…which UR’s do not do because they lift up verses individually out of context to make them say what they want them to say.

Larry, you seem not to understand that God has already provided salvation for all who willingly put their faith in Jesus’ sacrifice. God has done his part, Larry. Now man must appropriate God’s grace by faith to be a partaker of the salvation Jesus paid for… Btw, you do not obtain salvation by the unbiblical way of the lake of fire…

God bless,
Aaron