The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Request for some help in a discussion

Hi everyone,

I go to a church where ECT is taught. In a recent sermon series on Isaiah, the preacher seemed to say things that sounded a bit too good to be true for what I know he believes. I asked him about it and he clarified what he said in a way that is more consistent with ECT.
I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for any questions or comments that may be good to follow on from this, that may perhaps get him thinking. Here is the conversation so far.

I asked

He replied to me

I would like to gently prod him to think some more about the problems with his view, and the possibility of UR, without being too objectionable. Thanks for your help,
Craig.

I think we have to consider the fate of those who die as unbelievers because they never heard the gospel, and those who are unbelievers because the only form of Christianity they ever came across was the oppressors’ religion.

In either case if unbelief leads to ECT God is being monstrously unfair. If it doesn’t then UR or something like it is true.

Can’t have it both ways.

How to “gently” prod someone, now that’s the question!

All humanity rebels against God. All rebels will be killed. But at precisely the same time, all humanity will come to worship.

In the same way, the bodies of all who rebel (every one of us) will be a horror to all who worship (every one of us.)

How can this be?

At the end of time, all humanity will be both alive and dead, alive in Christ and dead in Adam. The living will gaze on the dead with loathing. The dead, the inner demons against which we struggle, will be cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed forever. (The smoke of that fire will rise forever.) The true self, the part of us born of God, will be liberated, never more to endure the bitter weight of sin.

Paul (the worshiper) was horrified by Saul. Saul was his “body of death”. The “body of death” that Paul endured was the sin that lived within him. Paul struggled against his shadow self, his inner demon, a dead thing that was somehow alive. Paul longed for the day when Christ would set him free by destroying Saul, once and for all.

What was true for Paul/Saul is true for us all. All of us are rebel/worshiper, dead/alive, in-Adam/in-Christ.

Well said Allan, of course God will not allow liars and adulterers…
or Sauls in the Kingdom, but he will let Pauls enter the Kingdom. :slight_smile:

notice John saw the Dead in the 2nd resurrection.

Thanks everyone for your helpful thoughts.

Thanks Allan for a possible UR reading of Isa 66:24. This passage is one I have thought of as difficult for both ECT and UR and easier for Anni. Your explanation sounds plausible - at least as plausible as the way some OT passages are treated by NT authors :slight_smile:

I agree with you Sherman that gently prodding is difficult, but it is something I am attempting to do. Several in the church, including the minister, know of my Christian Universalist leanings and I still haven’t been thrown out yet. :slight_smile:

May God bless you Eric. It is challenging to pour new wine into an old wineskin.

Concerning Isaiah, I think that he likely did not believe or not believe in Universalism. He probably understood his vision to speak of the Messianic Age to come, where all alive would worship God and those who opposed God would be dead with their bodies decaying in Hinnom Valley. The Hebrew scriptures deal primarily with what happens to people in this life and say little if any about post-mortem life.

I agree Sherman. Often in the OT, the great blessing spoken of after death seems to be not about post-mortem life for yourself, but that your descendants would be blessed and be numerous on the earth.

What do you think about Daniel 12:1-3? Do you think this is an exception?

maybe, it has a lot of mistranslations in various editions

but only Paul knew about the MYSTERY, and it is the belief of universalism, that
is why he didn’t talk most about hell, ECTers wonder why? and they don’t know,
Jesus didn’t teach that while he was on earth, that’s why he said in John 16:12
“I still have many things to tell you, but you can’t bear them now.”

unfortunately many Christians believe in Doctrine of hell and trinity, something that even Muslims don’t believe
it, and many obeying God because of hell, not because of Love, many can’t bear the burden of Universalism,
even Matthew didn’t know about it that many ECTers insisting on the Matthew 25:46

what about below? :slight_smile:

Psalm 22:27,28
“All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.”

and another secret: source of the eternal life is just Jesus, and one day there will be no more sorrow, pain
and …, Jesus is not the source of eternal misery life :sunglasses:

the darkness will be destroyed one day, ECTers believe hell will be somewhere in the universe, where? :smiley:
but notice God will create new earth and new universe :wink:

Craig,

unless your pastor is denying the resurrection of the wicked, that hasn’t happened yet in his account, nor in Isaiah’s vision there. So the story isn’t over yet.

Jesus does pick up this vision as an example of a fire applying to all people, in Mark 9, but when He applies it to all people He specifically says that all will be salted by the unquenchable fire of Gehenna, and that salting is the best of things leading to peace with one another.

If an extrapolation of Isaiah 66 as an example of final judgment doesn’t include Jesus’ own explanation of the purpose of the unquenchable fire, how can that extrapolation be legitimate?

(Granted, Matthew doesn’t report that saying in his account of the final gathering in Capernaum at GosMatt 18, but he does report Jesus giving another 100 sheep parable, and epilogues with the warning to the apostle Peter about trying to find some limit to repentance and forgiveness: those who are unmerciful slaves will be sent to the tormentor themselves until they pay the final cent of what they owe, namely mercy on other people! – their refusal to pay that being the reason they are sent to prison after all. That might be prodding too hard. :wink: But I mention it in case your pastor tries to get around Mark 9:49-50 by saying Matthew includes something else instead.)

Thanks Jason for your helpful thoughts.

Yes. They look upon “dead bodies”. It takes a bit of interpretation to get from “dead bodies” to people who have been raised and judged and are consciously suffering forever in the lake of fire as my pastor believes.
Sherman has suggested that Isaiah would have understood them as the literal dead bodies of those who rebel against God in the coming Messianic age.
Alan has suggested that the dead bodies are our old sinful selves, our body of death that we will all look upon with loathing in the coming age. (I hope I have understood you both correctly).
I was wondering if you have any more thoughts Jason as to who/what/when about the the “dead bodies” of v24?
Thanks very much everyone.

Yeah, I originally had a longer post there, but then worried I was adding too much.

As far as I can tell, Isaiah is foreseeing the results of the coming of YHWH for an earthly reign in the Messianic age, what we’d call the Millennium Reign. That’s pre-resurrection. The “abhorrence” comes from survivors of Jerusalem being sent out in groups over the next several months to gather and bury the remains of the army (Syrian if I recall correctly!) that had been staging a siege on Jerusalem and was about to over-run it when Christ touched down on the Mount of Olives outside the city and proceeded to nuke the invading army (inspiring surviving soldiers from Judah to charge out and help a little, too).

The survivors go out in squads to shovel the dead bodies into a mass grave, mainly a trench many miles long extending from Gehenna Valley north toward Tar Meggido (Armageddon) where the invading soldiers were staging their siege (and possibly through a split in Olivet Hill caused when Christ touches down there). They also pick up firewood and other fuel to help burn the bodies, as well as for their personal needs for years afterward, during this time.

However, this isn’t meant entirely as a disgrace to the enemy. Once the mass bodies are buried in the Gehenna extension, groups are still sent out for a long time to scout for left-over corpses and even for bone pieces, marking them for proper burial in Gehenna later – the idea apparently being that they should be buried with the same hope of resurrection as the Jews themselves in principle want! Other prophets talk about this situation in much more detail, and I don’t recall offhand where, but Winchester (the Baptist universalistic evangelist from the days of the Revolutionary War and the early Napoleonic period) does in detail in his lectures on prophecies yet to be fulfilled. He tied the details together impressively enough for me to currently favor this theory (even though some of his other attempts are not so great and turned out to be patently wrong, to be fairly critical of his efforts).

It’s possible something similar (on this theory) is intended for the even larger army which masses in Edom (led by the ten kings or their survivors, expected to be the largest army ever assembled) for assaulting the Messiah soon afterward, which He goes out personally to slaughter hand to hand (rather than nuking them from a distance as during His arrival), leading to the Edom area’s ruin. Eventually the area recovers (and the people YHWH wounds/kills there will be eventually healed!), but before it has fully recovered a highway is made through it for pilgrims coming to Jerusalem, and they’re astonished and revolted and terrified at the destruction.

That’s my take on it. It may have been fulfilled in a superficial way at Jerusalem in 70 (although you should be able to see some hugely important and different differences, to say the least – starting with Jerusalem being saved from invading besiegers by YHWH’s personal direct intervention instead of wiped out by the Romans! (And again a generation later.)) But the details point to a very different kind of fulfillment that hasn’t happened yet.

And Jesus takes that fulfillment (as well as the oncoming 70 disaster for Jerusalem) to stand as examples of coming judgment for everyone.

Thanks Jason. That certainly is some “more thoughts” you have there! :slight_smile:
I can see that there is a lot more study for me to do to follow all that you have said and see how Isaiah and people of his time may have understood these things, and then how the NT picks up on them.
I think I can recall some passages you may be getting the details from in Isaiah and the other prophets and history books of the bible from around that time. You also mentioned Winchester.
I will start digging :slight_smile: