The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Responding to a Calvinist


#1

My promotion of universalism has, as I expected it would, led to not a small amount of hostility. What would your response be to this person critiquing me?

What we tell people will happen to the wicked IS a salvational issue, because it is a core part of the Gospel.

What makes something a salvational issue is if it would cause a person to trust in false Christ because they are believing in a false Gospel.

That is why Paul wrote such hard words to the Galatians, warning they had been deceived by a false gospel that would cost them salvation if the continued in it. As Paul warned, everyone who preaches a false gospel is under a curse (Gal 1:8-9)

Universalism, which says that there will be a second chance to repent after death, or that final punishment won’t be eternal, but that the wicked will someday come out of the lake of fire, IS a distortion of the Gospel… a deceptive false gospel that will cost many their souls.

What would happen with the wicked was also at the heart of the fall. It is the Serpent whispering all over again, “Did Yahweh really say that? Can you really be sure? You will not surely die… it won’t be as serious or dreadful as you have been told.”
Should we be surprised that the Serpent would repackage the same lies and try to offer them again today?

Christ’s warning for the wicked is clear - to fear Him who can destroy body and soul in hell. (Matthew 10:28). Christ Himself will resurrect the wicked to a resurrection of judgment, disgrace and everlasting contempt (John 5:29, Daniel 12:2 ). In the Parable of the Talents, He warns that after He has returned and judged His servants, He will call for those who rejected His Lordship to be slaughtered before Him (Luke 19:27)

Yah’shua (Jesus) said “Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.” (Matthew‬ ‭13:40-43‬ ‭ESV‬‬)

We are warned “the Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.” ‭‭(2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭ESV‬)

“For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,”(2 Peter‬ ‭2:4-9‬ ‭ESV‬‬)

Nowhere in Scripture is anything that says anyone will be given another chance to repent after death, or that anyone will be released from the final punishment, namely the lake of fire… and to tell people otherwise is to lay a snare for their souls.

Thanks in advance for any comprehensive suggestions as to how to respond to this.


#2

Is the author of the above quote implying that the Christ who will save all humanity is a different Christ and a “false Christ” from the Christ who will send many humans to be tormented for endless ages? Is the Christ who will annihilate for eternity many people also a “false Christ”? Will those who believe in such a “false Christ”, i.e. Christians who advocate universalism and annihilationism, be lost forever if they don’t repent & believe in the teaching of endless conscious torments (ECT) before they die? Will those Christians who are hopeful universalists also be damned? The author didn’t define “the gospel” or support his statements with Scripture. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul shared the saving gospel which he preached. This gospel saves those who believe it. The question is, though, saves them from what? From Love Omnipotent tormenting them for all eternity? From being annihilated forever? From going to torments in Hades and/or the lake of fire?

How many millions of souls has the teaching of endless tortures influenced to turn away from believing in Christ because they could not in good conscience accept such a horrific caricature of Love Omnipotent? OTOH universalism presents Him as He truly is, a just, righteous & loving God.

How would the teaching of universalism “cost many their souls”? Do humans not have free will to choose, or reject, Christ in this life? And if their free will decisions are for the truth rather than against it, will not God lead them to the truth, inspite of many false doctrines being taught by false teachers? Then, therefore, universalism or annihilationism, even if they were false teachings, would not keep any truth seeker from being saved.

What will “happen with the wicked” will be “as serious as you have been told”. But we disagree with our interpretations of what has “been told”. Adam & Eve were told they will “die”, not be tortured forever and ever.

To be “slaughtered” or killed or cast into the lake of fire or stoned to death is - nothing - compared to being burned alive endlessly. And quite lame language if Christ really were a believer in ECT.

Regarding the author’s alleged anti universalist “proof texts”, they have been addressed many times on these forums, as a search of the search engine will reveal. Here’s some of my own comments on Daniel 12:2-3:

.https://www.christianforums.com/threads/how-do-people-who-believe-in-eternal-torture-in-fire.8041369/page-30#post-72154410

and Matthew 10:28:

.Malachi 4:3 doesn't that promote annihilation

How does the author see that passage as being inharmonious with Biblical Universalism?

This is another of the author’s alleged anti universalist “proof texts” which have been addressed many times on these forums, as a search of the search engine will reveal. Here’s some of my own comments re 2 Thess.1:9:

.Malachi 4:3 doesn't that promote annihilation

How does the author see that passage as being inharmonious with Biblical Universalism?

Nowhere in Scripture is anything that says anyone will never be saved, or Love Omnipotent’s love expires like a carton of milk when an unbeliever dies, or that the blood of Christ shed for their sins becomes ineffective at a certain time, or that anyone will not be released from torments in the lake of fire. In fact there is much that indicates otherwise. For example:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/index.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.html

.https://www.christianforums.com/threads/if-endless-conscious-torments-were-true-is-god-a-monster.8042349/page-4#post-72154705

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2925037-lord-jesus-there-few-saved-87.html#post52183263

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

.https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as “endless”, “no end” & “never be saved” as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2937070-how-scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Jesus didn’t use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn’t believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

.https://www.christianforums.com/threads/could-an-eternal-punishment-simply-mean-that-once-instituted-it-will-not-change.8070705/page-2#post-72885429

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into “the ages of the ages”) being finite:

.https://www.christianforums.com/threads/for-the-lord-will-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038


#3

Thank you very much indeed! The author is actually an annihilationist though the response was to an article in which I was critiquing both ECT and annihilationism


#4

The verses the author chose - especially Mt.10:28 & 2 Thess.1:9 - do tend to be cited by annihilationists rather than ECTers.


#5

It is a part of the Gospel message only to the extent that you and the other party believes.

You can’t react to a Calvinist while believing the very thing Calvinist’s believe… We are not wicked. I will say that again, people are not wicked. We are crazy, we are stubborn, and not compliable in many circumstances, as social burdens bear down on us we sometimes act irrational. We are WHAT GOD CREATED US TO BE.

What will happen to the Wicked is what will happen. Calvinist, Arminian, Islamic, Catholic, nada nada nada will all have their views. If you re align your view with a positive belief in God and us as His creation, great things can and will happen.

I hope you enjoy a Christmas full of love and cheer.


#7

I see Dave’s post is put out to pasture so to say, but would be interested Dave in your input.
:grinning:


#8

I send this thread from the forum to the Calvinist:

Evangelical Universalism
Arguments for Evangelical Universalism

Berserk
Aug 10
For 3 reasons the pre-Pauline hymn in Phil. 2:6-11 might be viewed as one of Paul’s visions of cosmic reconciliation and universal salvation:
“Therefore, GUniversalism in Pauline Theologyod also highly exalted Him and gave Him the name that is above every other name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in Heaven and on Earth and under the Earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”

(1) “Every knee…under the Earth” designates everyone in Hades, not everyone in Australia.
(2) For Paul, the confession “Jesus Christ is Lord” makes one a Christian and cannot be sincerely uttered apart from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3).
(3) Most importantly, the hymn as a whole is based on the invitation to universal salvation in Isaiah 45:22-23: “Turn to me and saved, all you ends of the Earth! For I am God and there is no other…To me every knee shall bow and every tongues shall swear.”

Future posts will discuss other pro-universalist Pauline texts.

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Berserk
Aug 10
in 9:11 the Greek word “hina” (“in order that”) begins a purpose or result clause that specifies not what ought to happen, but what in fact will happen. That is confirmed by the use of Isaiah 45:22-23 as the source of inspiration for the Philippian hymn: “Turn to me and be save, all your ends of the earth!..To me every knee WILL bow and every tongue WILL swear.” Here God predicts not what every knee and tongue ought to do, but rather what they actually will do.

This universalist interpretation finds independent confirmation in the cosmic redemption text in Romans 11:32, 26: “God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He might have mercy on all…For from Him and for Him and back to Him are all things.”

3 points demonstrate a vision of universal reconciliation here:
(1) The 2 “alls” are parallel and universal."

(2) In 11:32, 36, Paul does not consider the Fall from the perspective of our willful disobedience, but from the perspective of God’s providential plan in which human is imprisoned and about which humanity therefore has no choice. In this respect, it is important to note that only the Fall empowers humanity to become “godlike” and thus to be able to discern the difference between good and evil (Genesis 3:22). Do you actually believe that God would have preferred Adam and Eve not to become godlike and not to be capable of discerning good from evil?

(3) Paul grounds the goal of divine mercy on all on the triumphal cosmic reconciliation in which all the creation that drives from God will ultimately be reconciled and restored to Him: “For from Him and for Him and back to Him are all things (11:36).”

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Berserk
Aug 11
Paul takes for granted God’s desire to save everyone, not just the elect: “God our Savior who desires everyone to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).” This divine desire raises the question of whether God’s will can be permanently thwarted by our disobedience. Paul excludes this possibility in his bold declaration of divine providence: “God has imprisoned all in disobedient so that He might have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).” Here Paul considers the Fall from the perspective that it was always God’s plan to imprison us with a fallen nature that would make us disobey Him. Most Christians assume that God wanted Adam and Eve to resist the forbidden fruit, but this assumption implies that God didn’t want them to become “like God” and to become capable of discerning good from evil (Genesis 3:22). How, then, can God be just if our sinful nature is guaranteed by divine decree? Because God’s purpose is that all of us ultimate benefit from His mercy and grace!

In that sense, God is not merely the potential Savior of all humanity; He is their actual Savior: “God who is the Savior of all people, especially (Greek: “malista”) of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10)” “Malista” means “especially” in the sense of “most immediately” or “most certainly,” and leaves open the potential for the ultimate salvation of all.

Similarly, Romans 11:32 seals the promise that God “will have mercy on all” (11:32) with an assurance of cosmic restoration: "For from Him and through Him and back to Him are all things (11:36). Universalism may also be implicit in the pre-Pauline hymn in Colossians 1:15-20: “…in Him [Christ] all things hold together…Through Him God was pleased to reconcile all things to Himself, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross (1:20).”

It is against this background that the pre-Pauline hymn in Phil 2:6-11 is so relevant to universalism. Every knee in Hell bows before Christ and every tongue in Hell makes the saving confession “Jesus Christ is Lord.” Scholars recognize that these allusions to “every knee” and “every tongue” are inspired by Isaiah 45:22-23, where the professed allegiance is inevitable, not just prescribed. [Paul’s own quotation of Isaiah 45:22-23 is irrelevant to this point.]

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DaveB
Aug 11
Well said.

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Origen
1
Aug 14
in 9:11 the Greek word “hina” (“in order that”) begins a purpose or result clause that specifies not what ought to happen, but what in fact will happen. That is confirmed by the use of Isaiah 45:22-23 as the source of inspiration for the Philippian hymn: “Turn to me and be save, all your ends of the earth!..To me every knee WILL bow and every tongue WILL swear.” Here God predicts not what every knee and tongue ought to do, but rather what they actually will do.

Donald, I assume by 9:11 you meant Phil.2:9-11, or more exactly verse 10 where the word “that” (hina) occurs. You claim that this refers to what will in fact happen.

Would you agree that in Jn.3:16 where the “hina” occurs again with the subjunctive that for those who are believing such belief will definitely (not merely possibly or potentially) result in them obtaining aionion life?

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian (aionion) life. Jn.3:16

In the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive:

Berean Literal Bible
For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Here again, like in v.16, is there any doubt about what the “hina” is referring to, and that the world - shall - be saved?

BTW, evidently EO scholar David Bentley Hart thinks John 3:17 is a clear proof text for universalism:

“While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology).”

Eclectic Orthodoxy – 11 Feb 18 5

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version
by David Bentley Hart Garry Wills reviewed my recent translation of the New Testament in the February 8th issue of the New York Review of Books. I am grateful for his article, both for the praise i…

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DennisTate

DaveB
Oct 8
I agree! It looks to me that Paul’s theology developed from the time of II Corinthians 12:2-4 when he felt that what he or a friend of his had been shown during a near death experience… (or at least an out of the body experience)… to the time years later when he wrote Romans chapters 9 - 11 and comes very close to teaching Eventual Uniserval Reconciliation.

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AllThingsReconciled
Oct 9
For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Just wanted to point out Ive been told, but not confirmed myself through research, that the word “might” there isnt even in the original text. That it just states “but that the world be saved”. anyone confirm?

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Berserk
1
Oct 31
PLAYING WITH THE GREEK: A POSSIBLE UNIVERSALIST PAULINE TEXT

“So as ALL die in Adam, even so ALL shall be made alive IN CHRIST. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ, then the FULFULLMENT (Greek: “to telos,” i. e. the rest), when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father ( 1 Corinthians 15:22-24)r.”

(1) The first 2 “alls” are parallel and hence universal. Since beiievers and unvelievers alike are raised “in Christ,” they will ultimately be saved.]
(2) “But each in his own order:” In other words, don’t get the sequence wrong. Now such a cautionary statement would be absurd, if the intended sequence were confined to first Christ, then Christians at Christ’s coming. But it becomes meaningful if it points to a 3-fold sequence–Christ, then Christians at His coming, then the fulfilment or everyone else. But a 3-fold sequence would imply the prospect of universal salvation.
(3) Paul’s phrase “then to telos” is always translated “then comes the end.” But there is no verb ‘comes" in the Greek and “to telos” can also mean “the fulfillment” and can thus refer to a completion of the resurrection process that includes unbelievers.
(4) Later in this chapter Christ’ act of handing over the kingdom to the Father entails the result that “God may be all in all (panta en pasin)” or "everything to everyone (15:28). Part of that restoration is proxy baptism for the unrighteous dead (15:29). Paul argues that such proxy baptisms would be pointless if God were not destined to become all in all.

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qaz
Nov 1
Now such a cautionary statement would be absurd, if the intended sequence were confined to first Christ, then Christians at Christ’s coming

How would it be absurd?

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Berserk
Nov 1
ow would it be absurd?

No reader needs a reminder that Christ was raised before the resurrection of believers at His 2nd Coming. So the phrase “But each in his own order” cab be informative only if it points to a 3rd item in the sequence (“then…then”) and that 3rd item is “then the fulfilment” or completion."–in other words, the resurrection of nonbelievers. Since those nonbelievers would be raised “in Christ,” their ultimate salvation would then seem assured.


#9

And this is the response I got back (plus to an article I wrote advocating Molinism or Middle Knowledge):

Paul was not a universalist, nor did he teach universalism. It’s easy to be deceived when verses are taken out of their context, and this article takes many verses out of context.

In Philippians 2:10, Paul isn’t saying there will be universal salvation, but universal submission. Willingly or unwillingly, every knee is going to bow and acknowledge Christ is Lord and Master of all- including the dead and the demons under the earth.

Yes, Philippians 2:10 is quoting from Isaiah 45:23 … but this is not promising universal salvation.

Rather, after the call for all the ends of the earth to turn and repent to be saved (Isaiah 45:22), Isaiah 45:23 is given as a warning for those who will not head the call of repentance- to tell them Yahweh will humble and bring all into submission everyone. No rebellion will remain- every knee will bow and every tongue will acknowledge His authority and rule. He continues in Isaiah 45:24 to warn that all who were angry at Christ will be put to shame, but that all that are counted as Israel through faith will be justified and glorifed (Isaiah 45:25).

The warning of Isaiah 45:23 is being used as an argument for why the peoples should turn and be saved in the previous verse (v22). The same is still true with the gospel- people are urged to repent and be saved, and part of the argument Yah’shua and the apostles give is that Christ rules and will return to judge the living and the dead. All will be humbled and acknowledge His authority in the end, but it will be a terrible day for those that did not repent and be saved.

This complete submission is indeed a sure prophecy- for the Father has promised to make Christ’s enemies His footstool (Psalm 110:1) , and that on the Judgement day, the day of His wrath, nations will be judged and their corpses will fill the earth (Psalm 110:5-6). For the wicked, there’s the promise they will be smashed by Christ with a Rod of iron, to be shattered beyond repair (Psalm 2:9-12)

1 Cor.12:3, which tells us that no one can say Jesus is Lord except through the Holy Spirit, is referring in its context to discerning true believers, and is speaking about those who believe in Christ in this life- and is never applied to people after death.

As to what Paul was saying Rom 11:32 and Rom 11:36, he wasn’t teaching universalism. To understand what he was teaching, we must consider the context of the verses.

Paul had written huge and precious promises for believers in Rom 8.
In Rom 9, Paul shifts gears to begin to explain how YHWH’s word has not been broken to Israel when so many are not believing and being lost (Rom 9:1-3)… because if His promise to them was broken, how could the Romans trust the promises that Paul had just given them in Rom 8?

Through Rom 9 - Rom 11, Paul explains that not all the physical offspring of Israel are counted by Yahweh as children of promise (Rom 9:4-12). He explains how Yahweh has always saved through His grace and choosing, not based on what people have or haven’t done (Rom 9:13-16). He continues to explain that Yahweh hardens whom He wills, including the Jews who don’t believe, and that this was a part of his own plans and purposes, for His glory, as much as His choice was to show mercy to those whom He grants mercy (Rom 9:17-29).

He points again how salvation is through faith in Christ alone, which is why the proclamation of the true gospel is crucial (Rom 9:30-Rom 10:21)
Paul explains how Yahweh has kept some of the Jews as a remnant, namely those believing Jews who are saved through faith(Rom 11:1- 6). He shows how the hardening and removal of the unbelieving Jews was part of Yahweh’s plans that the Gentiles could be saved and included. Paul then explains how the Gentiles being saved is part of making some of the Jews jealous, and part of Yah’s plan for the Jews to be saved. He warns the Gentiles not to be proud, and to know this partial hardening will be removed at some point, that all the Jews that remain may repent and be saved. (Rom 11:8-27)

It at this point that Paul says:

“From the standpoint of the gospel they [the Jews] are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you [the Gentiles] once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these [the Jews] also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all [Jews and Gentiles] in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Jew and Gentile].”
Romans 11:28-32 NASB

The ‘all’ Paul was using was not pointing to all individuals, but pointing to both Jews and Gentiles, without distinction.
Paul was finishing 3 chapters of explaining why so many Jews ARE lost and hardened, and yet how them being lost could be Yahweh’s purpose. The point being made is that both Jews and Gentiles at some point (through Yahweh’s own hand) had been handed over and ‘shut up’ in disobedience, with the purpose that all the Jews and Gentiles that would be saved, would be saved through Yah’s mercy. Neither Jew nor Gentile believer had the right to boast against each other- for both had been shut up in disobedience and both had needed and been granted mercy.

It is in response to what Paul has been explaining from Rom 9:1 - Rom11:32 about Yahweh’s sovereignty in salvation (and even those that reject the Gospel), and how these things work together to Yah’s glory, that Paul finally worships Yahweh for how deep His wisdom and inscrutable His ways are, how He does everything perfectly without councillor or owing anything to anyone. It’s this doxology that he then closes by saying:

“For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.”
Romans 11:36 NASB

Why was Paul saying this? In the light of Rom 9-Rom11, He was saying that everything - who comes to Christ and who doesn’t come Christ, everything that happens, and how all things work together through the depth of His wisdom - is from Him, and through Him, and to Him, for His own glory.

It’s true that in Romans 11:32, Paul is saying that The Fall of Man was always a part of Yahweh’s design in creation. This accords with Ephesians 1, where it says that Yahweh works all things according to His will – and that even the fall was a part of His plan and purposes.

However, Rom 11:32 does NOT mean that every individual will be saved. Such a universalist interpretation is in direct contradiction with what Paul said in Romans 9, which not only explains that there are some have been prepared for destruction, but also explains how the saved and the lost are both a part of Yahweh’s purpose to get glory:

“What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”
Romans 9:14-24 ESV

For 1 Tim 4:10, the context:

“If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.”
1 Timothy 4:6-10 ESV

Paul is admonishing Timothy to discipline himself for the sake of Christ, to be shown approved when He appears. 1 Tim 4:10, Paul isn’t saying there is one group who ‘is saved now and toil’ and one that will be saved later after death who didn’t. Rather, Paul is expressing that their sacrifices and toil to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles will not be in vain, because Christ is not only Saviour to the Jews, but ‘all people’ (namely, the Gentiles also)… specifically those who believe. Paul is no saying all individual people will be saved… but rather like John wrote, people “from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages", who had believed on Christ in this life will be saved (Rev 7:9)

Regarding the Hymn in Colossians 1:15-20, John Piper recently took a more in depth view to show this hymn does not preach universalism. I won’t reproduce it here (for the sake of space), but those interested can read/ listen to the interview here:

What about John 3:16-17? What are their context?

Yah’shua has been speaking to Nicodemus about how someone needs to be born again to see, let alone enter the Kingdom of Heaven. While speaking about these things, Yah’shua tells him:

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
John 3:14-18 NASB

Yah’shua was pointing Nicodemus back to Numbers 21:5-9, when the Israelites had rebelled and Yahweh sent fiery serpents as judgement, killing many. When the people cried out for mercy, Yahweh told Moses to make a bronze serpent and lift it on a pole, and that all that would look to it would be saved.

Yah’shua was telling Nicodemus that not only would He be lifted up like that bronze serpent, but those that looked at Him in faith like the Israelites had looked at the bronze serpent would be saved (John 3:14, 16). Yah’shua was also using Numbers 21:5-9 to make clear that whoever do not look at Him in faith will perish- because Yah’s judgement is already upon them, as it was on the Israelites who had been bitten.

Those who refused to look to the bronze serpent weren’t given another chance to be saved from judgement after they died- their only chance to be saved was to believe and look to the bronze serpent while they were alive. The same is true with Christ- the person who will not believe and look in faith to Christ while they are still alive, won’t be given another another chance after death, but will finally perish under Yah’s judgement.

What about Yah’shua saying the world would be saved through Him? He was saying this to show this judgement and salvation isn’t just for the Jews, but also for the Gentiles- for the’world’.

Dr James White, an apologist and professor of Greek, notes about the word ‘world’ used here:

“The great controversy that rages around the term “world” is wholly unnecessary. The wide range of uses of /kosmos/ (world) in the Johannine corpus is well known. John 3:16 does not define the extent of /kosmos/. However, a few things are certain: it is not the “world” that Jesus says He does /not/ pray for in John 17:9, a “world” that is differentiated from those the Father has given Him: “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours.” It is not the “world” that is arrayed as an enemy against God’s will and truth, either, as seen in 1 John 2:15: “Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” Obviously, the “world” we are not to love in 1 John 2:15 is not the world God showed His love toward by sending His unique Son. The most that can be said by means of exegesis (rather than by insertion via tradition) is that the world is shown love through the giving of the Son so that a specific, particular people receive eternal life through faith in Him. Since we know that not all are saved by faith in Christ, it is utterly unwarranted to read into /kosmos/ some universal view of humanity: how is God’s love shown for one who experiences eternal punishment by the provision of salvation for someone else? Surely, then, this is a general use of /kosmos/, with more specific uses of the term coming in the following verses. That is, the common meaning of world that would have suggested itself to the original readers (Jew and Gentile), and this is born out by the parallel passage in 1 John 4, as we will see below.”
https://www.aomin.org/aoblog/2002/05/04/blinded-by-tradition-an-open-letter-to-dave-hunt/

How can you claim the fate of the wicked wasn’t a primary concern to the Saviour? How could He be a Saviour without it being one of His primary concerns- a concern vital enough that He would lay His life down for everyone who will trust in Him?

Through Romans 2, Paul is arguing that NO ONE is good enough, nor will ever be accepted apart from being made righteous through faith in Christ. Paul’s saying that “there will be glory, honour, and /shalom/ (peace) for everyone who does what is good” is in the context of believers - namely, that both Jew and Gentile believers who believe in Christ and submit to the Gospel will receive glory, honour and peace, for God is showing no partiality or favouritism between the Jewish and the Gentiles believers. Paul is telling the believers that Gentile believers aren’t ‘second class’ in Christ’s eyes, and that the Jewish believers shouldn’t boast.

To say everyone all those who reject Christ in this life will be saved in the end, and that “…there will be glory, honour, and /shalom/ (peace) for everyone who does what is good…[because] Elohim (God)…shows no partiality”, is to completely contradict what Paul has been arguing through Romans 2. It is to deny the gospel and to say salvation can be earned by ‘good works’… even though Scripture tells us our best ‘good works’ are filthy rags before Him. It’s saying a ‘work salvation’ is available apart from Christ.

In this same chapter Paul warns the wicked who reject Christ:

“But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

…to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth [of the Gospel], but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.”
Romans 2:5-6, 8 NASB

What about 1 Cor 15:22-25?

“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.”
1 Corinthians 15:20-25 NASB

In 1 Cor 15, Paul has been reasoning with those who deny the physical resurrection, and showing them that if there was no physical resurrection, then Christ wasn’t truly risen, which would mean those people were without salvation from sin and Death, because they would not have been overcome. Paul has been reasoning why the physical resurrection is real, and what that will mean for resurrected bodies.

In 1 Cor 15:21, Paul is not claiming that all people will be saved spiritually and made eternally alive… rather he is pointing out that the physical death of all men came through a man (Adam) and physical resurrection will come to all men through a man (Christ, who has been given authority to raise the dead on the last day).
Yah’shua (Jesus) himself said that He will resurrect both the righteous and the wicked on the last day - but only those made righteous through faith in Christ while he raised to eternal life / immortality, but the wicked to a resurrection of judgment, shame and and everlasting contempt (John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15, Dan 12:2)

Paul was NOT saying in 1 Cor 15:20-25 that spiritual salvation and eternal life was coming to all men through Christ.
Just as death came to those who are Adam’s offspring, salvation and eternal life are inherited by those who are counted by faith as offspring of Christ, the second Adam.

You asked how those who hold to an annihilist view can say Yahweh would finally destroy the wicked after they are resurrected for the resurrection of Judgement… or, how ‘those who are immortal after resurrection can die’.

Firstly, it is a mistake to believe that just because someone is resurrected from the dead, that they will be resurrected as an immortal being. Lazarus is a clear example from Scripture that someone can be resurrected from the dead, yet be resurrected as a mortal. The dead man resurrected after touching Elisha’s bones is another example if this (2 Kings 13:21)

Secondly, the Scriptures says man isn’t by nature created immortal, but fallen man has a soul that can ultimately and finally perish at Yah’s hand (Mat 10:28). As its Paul words it, its ‘the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord’ (2 Thes 1:9)

Eternal life or immortality, is the gift of Christ to all who believe in Him in this life- and to them alone.

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Romans 6:23 NASB

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
John 3:36 ESV

“but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,”
2 Timothy 1:10 NASB

This is why some annihilists prefer to be called ‘conditionalists’ (rather than ‘cessationists’) - because the Scriptures say immortality or eternal life is conditional, a gift only for those trusting Christ with true saving faith.

It would be foolish to ignore what Paul DOES write clearly about the fate of the wicked:

“For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,dealing out retribution to thosewho do not know God and to thosewho do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed-for our testimony to you was believed.”
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 NASB

Those who reject the gospel, after they have been resurrected with a mortal body to the judgement of the wicked, will be judged in the flesh, and be given to suffer before their souls are final destoyed/ put to death().

This is why Isaiah, when he saw the new heavens and the new earth (which comes after the final judgement) he described the corpses of the wicked outside the New Jerusalem:

““For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure. “And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD. “Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.””
Isaiah 66:22-24 NASB

(Regarding a ‘Cosmic Jubilee’, it should be noted that in the original Jubilee, Yahweh commanded only that Yahweh’s covenant people have their debts cancelled, be released from slavery and allowed to return to their inheritence. Israel was NOT required to cancel the debt or release slaves that were not one of Yahweh’s covenant people.
In the same way, in the true ‘Cosmic Jubilee’ it is Yahweh’s New Covenant people, chosen by His grace, that have their sin debt cancelled, that are released from slavery and allowed to return to the inheritance Yahweh had granted them in Christ. There is however NO promise of the canceling of the sin debts of those who are NOT His covenant people, nor of them being released from slavery.)

(Re: Molonism, Molonism has has no Scriptural basis, but is a manmade philosophy created to attempt to save the libertarian view of free will.
However, the reason so many Armenians cannot embrace Molonism is because Molonism actaully denies true libertarian free will. Why? Because, if as Molonism claims, Yahweh created the world knowing exactly what choice a person would make in every given situation, it gives the following question – could that man make a different choice in that given situation, and so prove Yahweh’s ‘middle-knowledge’ wrong? If you hold to YHWH being Omicient, then your answer must be no… which means, a person never had true ‘libertarian freedom’ in that situation to make a different choice. This means he never had true libertarian free will to choose the gospel. This shows that the Molinistic philosophy is still deterministic – believing that man cannot truly ‘make a different choice’ and so through his own will alone, determine to be saved… but that his being saved or not was predetermined by Yahweh’s choice to ‘actaulise this world’, rather than another. All this, while Molinism limits YHWH’s choice in what He can and cannot do in man, and the ‘counterfactuals’ limiting His choices to create don’t come from within Himself but some ‘other’ outside, uncontrolled source.)

You mentioned that Yahweh always gets what He wants. This is true…

So the question is (especially in light of Rom 9- Rom 11), does Yahweh want and intend all individuals to be saved?

What about 1 Tim 2:4? What is the context for this verse?

“First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:1-4 NASB

Paul is admonishing the believers to make prayers for all [kinds] of men- even the kings and authorities, who had been key in their persecutions, so they may live quiet lives. He continues to say this is good in Christ sight, who desires ‘all men’ to be saved. This is the same kind of ‘all’ as in the earlier verse- namely that Christ desires all kinds or classes of men to be saved, without distinction.

Perhaps you find this difficult to believe. My next question would be, does Scripture say anywhere that Yahweh wills or decrees that some people NOT believe, so they won’t turn and be saved?

Yah’shua (Jesus) spoke about how spiritual blindness and deafness was given to some by Yahweh:

“And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’””
Mark 4:10-12 ESV

Jesus (Yah’shua) was quoting Isaiah, where Yahweh had decreed and given people over to be spirtually blind, deaf and dull of heart, that they might not turn to Him to be forgiven/ healed:

“And I heard the voice of the LORD [Yahweh] saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.” And he said, "Go, and say to this people: “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.””
Isaiah 6:8-10 ESV

John also points to Isaiah 6:8-10, showing that this is the reason for people’s inability to believe:

“But though He [Jesus/Yah’shua] had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: " LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?" For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, " HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM." These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.”
John 12:37-41 NASB

(Indeed, Yah’shua [Jesus] said no one is able to believe in Him unless it is given to them from the Father- John 6:43-44, John 10:25-28)

What about Paul? He confirms that Yahweh Himself has given some people over to be hardened and blinded, that they might not repent and be saved, but receive His righteous judgement:

“What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, " FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.”
Romans 9:14-24 NASB

“What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.” And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.””
Romans 11:7-10 ESV

“But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.”
Deuteronomy 29:4 ESV

“If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?" But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the LORD desired to put them to death.”
1 Samuel 2:25 NASB

“So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”[a]
8 and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.”
1 Peter 2:7-8

I would be interested in your reaction to this


#10

Let me comment on the response to the Philippians verses, (Philippians 2:10-11) "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.*

Some critics–blatantly ignoring the phrase to the glory of God the Father, who desires that all be saved–claim these verses say nothing about all being saved because the confession is just an unwilling statement of acknowledgment or submission by some! But that’s not at all what the relevant Greek word exomologeō in Philippians 2:11 implies when it is translated as confess in the New Testament. One can see that, in addition to Philippians 2:11, all such verses, cited below, are positive and some are uplifting, conveying the hope of salvation. Clearly, they do not convey unwilling acknowledgment or submission.

Romans 14:11, *For the Scriptures say, 'As surely as I live,’ says the LORD, ‘every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God."

Matthew 3:5, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mark 1:5, *And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins."

Act 19:18, *Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices."

Romans 15:9, *And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name."

James 5:16, *Confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much."

Revelation 3:5, *He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."


#11

You’re fighting the good fight!!


#12

Your friend is mistaken. Paul gives the reason why some people were blinded, and it wasn’t for the sake of punishing them…

Romans 11
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

Romans 11:15
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?


#13

Regarding John 10, I’m still waiting for @jasonpratt to post his exposition.


#14

Apologies; I finished the first draft (finally) some weeks ago, but took a break to come back to it later for a redraft. Then holidays happened and end-of-year busyness at work.


#15

I want you to know how much I appreciate your help in all of this. To fill you in, the ‘Calvinist’ is my wife, who comes from a Reformed background so when I shared universalism with our church and our church embraced it, she lost it, accused me of being a heretic and damning souls to hell (or at least to her annihilationist version of it), resigned her membership from our congregation and went back to her parents on the other side of the world - her whole family is Reformed, So we’re currently separated because of this. So this has been a tough time for me, especially as I am due for open-heart surgery in the next 1-4 weeks. She is the only one in our congregation who has rejected the change and is attacking me in public over this which is why I have come here and to tap into your expertise. I am using your research to construct a series of articles defending universalism. My wife is extremely intelligent and strong-willed, and being younger and healthier than myself, has a greater and faster output so you will appreciate what I am up against. Anyway, I felt you should all know.


#16

Here is my draft article on the current topic:

**Pauline Universalism II Philippians 2:10 - Universal Submission or Universal Salvation?

*The following is an apologetics series of responses to critiques made proponents of [eternal damnation]
OBJECTION

"Paul was not a universalist, nor did he teach universalism. It’s easy to be deceived when verses are taken out of their context, and this article takes many verses out of context.

In Philippians 2:10, Paul isn’t saying there will be universal salvation, but universal submission. Willingly or unwillingly, every knee is going to bow and acknowledge Christ is Lord and Master of all - including the dead and the demons under the earth."

Philippians 2:9-11, ESV

T he background passage in this debate is Philippians 2:9-11. As the critic prefers the English Standard Version (ESV) we shall be using a messianised version of that translation for the most part, with variant translations in (‘parentheses and quote marks’) added when needed:

“Therefore Elohim (God) has highly exalted Him (Yah’shua/Jesus) and bestowed on Him the Name that is above every other name, so that at the Name of Yah’shua (Jesus) every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Yah’shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) is Master (Lord), to the glory of Elohim (God) the Father” (Phil.2:9-11, ESV).

Unwilling Submission?

Some critics, blatantly ignoring the phrase " to the glory of Elohim (God) the Father " (Phil.2:11, ESV), "who desires all people to be saved " (1 Tim.2:4, ESV), claim these verses say nothing about all being saved because the confession is just an unwilling statement of acknowledgment or submission by some!

Exomologeó is Positive and Uplifting

But that’s not at all what the relevant Greek word exomologeó in Philippians 2:11 implies when it is translated as “confess” in the Messianic Scriptures (New Testament). One can see that, in addition to Philippians 2:11, all such verses (cited below= are positive and some are uplifting, conveying the hope of [salvation]( Clearly, they do not convey unwilling acknowledgment or submission:

“…for it is written: 'As I live, says Yahweh (the LORD), every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise ( exomologeó = ‘confess’) to Elohim (God)” (Rom.14:11, ESV, quoting Is.45:23)

Confession is Giving Praise in Both Greek and Aramaic

This is a quotation from Isaiah 45:23, the same citation made by Paul to the Philippians (see above). The ESV notes that “confess” here is also translated “give praise” in several Greek MSS (manuscripts). Why? Presumably because this was how it was worded in the original Aramaic:

"As I live, says Master YHWH, to Me every knee will bow; and to Me every tongue will give praise " (Rom.14:11, AENT)

To Confess is to Give Praise and Vice Versa

What is particularly interesting is that in the Aramaic of Philippians 2:11, Paul uses the word for “confess” (AENT) so that the apostle translates this phrase in Isaiah 45:23 as both “confess” and “give praise” so that we may know that the two words are synonymous or different shades of the same meaning. Every single human being is confessing and praising Elohim (God). Therefore we know that this is positive, affirmative, and joyful, and not under any kind of bitter compulsion. The undelivered do not praise the Creator, they curse Him.

MRC Translations

The Messianic Renewed Covenant (MRC) translation of the Messianic Scriptures (New Testament), which uses a Greek NT ground text as opposed to an Aramaic one, also translates the phrase “and every tongue shall give praise to Elohim (God)”(Rom.14:11, MRC). Likewise, in the Philippian citation, he renders exomologeó as “confess” adding the footnote that this word also means “agree”, thus bringing our further nuance.

Other Translations

As you carefully study the literature on the use of exomologeó it becomes clear that this Greek word means a combination of ‘confess’, ‘agree with’, ‘praise’ and (as we shall presently see) ‘swear’. Scholars are pressed to choose between them (since they are all true) which is why they tend to use a mixture of ‘confess’ and ‘praise’, as with Benjamin Wilson’s translation of Vatican MS 1209 according to Dr.J.J.Griesbach’s Recension . Wilson renders exomologeó as “praise” in Philippians 1:11 and "confess"in Romans 14:11. A great many translations now use both terms as in the Revised New American Revised Bible (RNARB), which follows Wilson, as does the scholars’ favourite, the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), which indicates in its footnotes that both ‘confess’ and ‘praise’ are valid.

Back to the Tanakh Isaiah

In the end we must return to the source of the quotation, which is Isaiah 45:23 where the word is the Masoretic text is “swear” as in ‘swearing allegiance’ - see the Jewish Publication Society (JPS, 1917), Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB), Hebraic Roots Version (HRV), Old Testament - British & Foreign Bible Society , etc… Presumably this is why the Greek Septuagint (LXX) also renders the word as “swear”, as in taking an oath . This is an oath of allegiance being taken ! You don’t go and execute or torment those who have just sworn an oath of allegiance to you and are praising you out of the fullness of their hearts!

Repentance and Sin Confession

Though this ought to be enough to settle the matter, let us take a look at some other passages of Scripture so as to unambigiously seal the correct meaning exomologeó :

“Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan were going out to him (John the Baptist), and they were baptised by him in the river Jordan confessing ( exomologeó ) their sins” (Mt.3:5, ESV).

Confession as an Act of Genuine Worship and Praise

Does anyone believe for one moment that these peeople were either making a false or resentful ‘confession’, gritting their teeth because they were being forced to by John? Of course not! And why not? Because their confession ( exomologeó ) is an act of worship, and expression of praise! Mark 1:5 says exactly the same thing.

Believers’ Confession Post-Resurrection

The same thing was being said and done post-resurrection:

“And many of those who were believers came, confessing ( exomologeó ) and divulging (disclosing) their practices” (Ac.19:18, ESV).

Exomologeó as a Work of the Ruach Elohim

Will anyone assert that these were forced confessions also? These were, after all, bona fide believers “confess[ing] their evil deeds” as part of their [repentance] upon conversion. There was nothing fake or forced here. Their hearts were broken and their spirits contrite - the Ruach (Spirit) had moved them to do this. And that’s the whole point: exomologeó (confession) is a work of the Ruach Elohim (Spirit of God)acting on a tenderised heart. This is not a forced confession by a Gestapo- or KGB-like agent because our Elohim (God) does not work like that even if the Calvinist cariature might.

Exomologeó Among the Gentiles

“For I tell you that Messiah (Christ) became a servant to the circumcised to show Elohim’s (God’s) truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify Elohim (God) . As it is written, 'Therefore I will praise ( exomologeó ) You among the Gentiles, and sing to Your name '” (Rom.15:8-9, ESV).

The latter is a quotation from 2 Samuel 22:50 and Psalm 18:49 where ‘praising’ is the Hebrew verb (see also Rom.3:29 for context). Exomologeó Leads to Healing

The apostle James speaks of voluntary confession and the healing that this leads to:

“Therefore confess ( exomologeó ) your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed . The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working (can accomplish much)” (Jas.5:16, ESV).

And is not universal salvation a final healing - a repair of the breach - ince justice has taken its course? Yah’shua’s Confession

“The one who conquers (overcomes) will be clothed thus in white garments and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess ( exomologeó ) His name before My Father and before His malakim (angels)” (Rev.3:5, ESV).

Isaiah the Universalist

The idea that there is anyone being compelled to ‘confess’ against their will under the lash of a metaphorical whip is pure fiction and belongs to the world of an over active imagination inspired my mediaeval Catholic theology. You cannot force Scripture into a man-made doctrinal ssystem but must allow it to speak for itself. Without a shadow of a doubt, Paul’s two quotations from the navi (prophet) Isaiah are universalist, just as Isaiah himself was universalist. Only by a major theological contortion act can you make exomologeó out to be anything other than positive, just as the confession of sin in an act of repentance is postive.

Let Elohim Be True

And whether Mr.Calvin or anyone else doesn’t like it or not is no concern of mine.

“Let Elohim (God) be true through everyone were a liar, as it is written, ‘That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged’”(Rom.3:4, ESV)

Conclusion

Is Paul talking about universal submission or universal salvation? Both.


#18

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian (aionion) life. (Jn. 3:16).

In John 3:16 there is no question that those who are believing - shall - not perish. Even though the subjunctive “should” is used. For it is used with the hina (so that) indicating purpose or result.

Likewise, in the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive, just as it does in John 3:16:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

There we see God’s reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the “divine will”:

“In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” https://translate.academic.ru/ἵνα/el/xx/

More literal versions of John 3:16 say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for “perish” is used of the prodigal son who was “lost” but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as “eternal life”. Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They go to “hell” until they repent & are saved, since God becomes “all in ALL” (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), “the Saviour of the world” (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers “perish”, not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say “perish endlessly” there was a Greek word for “endless” He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words “no end” (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

“While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology).”

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life’s justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between “the many” who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

“He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.” (Isa.53:11).

For how “many” (not few) did He “bear their iniquities”? All.

“Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ’s obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam’s fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the ‘qal wahomer’ (“from minor to major”) form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by “much more”…cf. earlier use at 5:9,10…And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ’s death has abounded “for the many” (5:15b), which corresponds to the “all” of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it…”

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam’s trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ’s “act of righteousness” results in “justification of life” (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as “justification” (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has “acquittal”) - the opposite of “condemnation”. The word ζωῆς (“of life”) is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered “justification resulting in life”. 108

  1. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): “acquittal that brings life”. The construction is variously called a “genitive of apposition”, an “epexegetical genitive” or “genitive of purpose”. Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

“The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ’s “act of righteousness” is the opposite of Adam’s “tresspass” and equivalent to Christ’s “obedience”, which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ’s righteous action and obedience are “justification resulting in life for all persons”…5:18…and “righteousness” for “many” (5:19). The term “many” in 5:19 is equivalent to “all persons”, and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, “many were made sinners” applies to all mankind, so “many will be made righteous” applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which “many” refers to “all”; and (4) the phrase “for many” is a Semitism which means “all”, as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark…10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul’s expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that “the righteous one”…the Lord’s servant, shall make “many” to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins …Isa.53:11…”

“It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith’s accepting it.”

(Paul’s Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)


#19

What is she suggesting with those comments? The Reformed limited atonement doctrine? That Love Omnipotent, i.e. God, doesn’t love all human beings & is not interested (nor ever was interested) in saving all human beings? That “world” in Jn.3:16 only means the elect, i.e. those who believe in this brief lifetime, whether they heard the gospel or not?

1 Tim.2: 3 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 the One having given Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony in their own proper times,

Scripture says obedience is required to obtain salvation (Heb.5:9; Mt.7:21-23, etc). Likewise Romans 2:5-16 contrasts the obedient with the disobedient.

What would be the point of Love Omnipotent raising those who cannot be saved to suffer judgement & torments in the lake of fire? Is He a sadist? Or are postmortem judgments & punishments of the lost corrective & for their good?

Rom.2:7 to those, indeed, who by endurance in good acts are seeking glory and honor and incorruption, life eonian (CLV)

https://studybible.info/CLV/Romans%202

Paul can be interpreted as contrasting those who get aionios life (Rom.2:7) with those who get wrath on a certain “day”, the “day of wrath” (Rom.2:5). Not ‘the eternity of wrath’. Endless wrath is not mentioned in this context, but “indignation… ,tribulation and distress” (v.8-9). BTW, those who have ceased to exist forever, as in the Conditionalism theory, would not be in “distress”.

Also as regards a “day of wrath” (2:5), we understand that a “day” of punishment is not an endless punishment, though in Scripture a day can be 1000 years to the Lord (2 Pet.3:8). And 1000 years is the length of the millennial age eon kingdom of the Lord. So why couldn’t this passage be contrasting eonian destinies in the future millennium? The gift of eon-ian life [life in the millennial age eon] being to those who seek “glory, honor & purity” or incorruption (of soul & spirit, in this life).

Concerning the objection “but only God gives them life for a limited age. Not very encouraging!”, neither Paul, Scripture or Universalists use the word “only”. Not that anyone deserves a future life of endless bliss, or even for 1000 or 25,000 years, but there are many other statements in Romans, in Paul’s other writings & the NT as a whole in support of an endless life being the gift that Love Omnipotent shall grant to those who are His in this world, e.g. Romans 8:31-38. Ultimately, IMO, all shall obtain such a life:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL mankind for life’s justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Rom.8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

P.S. “no more than 3 consecutive posts in a thread” rule required i add to this post rather than create a new post. I’ll add more later.

I provided a link with comments re Daniel 12:2 earlier in this thread. As regards 1 Cor.15:

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be “under His feet”? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to “all” to be “put…under his feet”. Then God will be “in” “all”, hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

The following was from a discussion on another forum:

The context does not speak of one “Final Resurrection”, but multiple resurrections at different times. Verse 23 says “each in his own order”:

22For as indeed in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming, 24a then the end,…

Three “orders” of resurrection are given:

  1. Christ’s (v.23)
  2. those that are His at His coming (v.23)
  3. the end (v.24) (i.e. the rest of humanity)

Together #2’s & #3 make up the entirety of those “in Adam” (v.22). These will “in Christ” be made alive, as per the parallel of verse 22. And “in Christ” in Scripture indicates salvation. So all “in Adam” will be saved.

Fortunately, no “eternal death” ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

“Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead.”

it’s not just “enemies under His feet” (v.25), but ALL (cf. v.22, ALL) will be in subjection “under His feet”:

27a For “He has put in subjection all things under His feet.”

The only exception being God:

27b But when it may be said that all things have been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all things to Him is excepted.

Again in v.28 we see - all - in subjection, & here even the Son is in subjection:

28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

All in all. See again v.22 “all”.

1 Cor.15:22-28 takes us beyond Revelation 20-22:

"In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
• No more rule
• No more authority
• No more power
• No more enemies
• No more reigning
• All subjected
• No more death, death destroyed.
• All made alive, immortal

In Revelation 20:21-22, we have:

• Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
• Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
• Authority (21:24,25)
• Power (21:24,25; 22:2
• Kings (21:24-26)
• Saints reign (22:5)
• Second death still exists (21:5)
• The nations still mortal (22:2)"

http://lovewins.us/388/an-analytical-study-of-words/

"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

  1. Christ the Firstfruit;
  2. Then they that are Christ’s, at His coming;
  3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
    up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
    have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
    For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
    under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
    IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.).

…But each in his own order. Not a “but” of exception,
rather a “but” of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. “Each in his own order.” Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

  1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days after His death.
  2. Then those who are Christ’s — At His coming.
  3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
    kingdom.

http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/asinadam.html

There is still reigning after people experience the second death:

“Let us see: “The throne of God and of the Lamb shall
be therein” (Rev. 22:3). “And his servants shall serve
him” and “they shall reign for the ages of the ages”
(Rev. 22:3-5). “The Kings of the earth bring their
glory into the New Jerusalem” (Rev. 21:23, 24). Yes,
rule, authority, and power are still present on the New
Earth. The Lord Jesus is still reigning,”

Death is not abolished while there is still reigning:

1 Cor 15: 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Therefore death is not abolished with people still dead in the lake of fire. Death is yet to be abolished after people are cast into the lake of fire:

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

God as “all in all” (1 Cor.15:28) has nothing to do with authority, but God “in” every being who ever lived. “To say that “all in all” signifies “the manifestation of God’s supremacy”…is very far indeed from the truth…When we say “Christ is my all,” what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness–He is everything to us!..And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!..Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!..we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all…The “kingdom” is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a “supremacy” will God “fully manifest” which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His “mediatorial” work. Instead of God’s supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love.”

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!’ (Rev.11:15)

9 And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name. (Rev.14:9-11)

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev.19:20)

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night – into the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10)

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning “into the ages of the ages”, including the millennial age & the age when the lake of fire (= the 2nd death) is abolished. But 1 Cor.15:25 says Christ’s reign is UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither is God yet “All in all” (1 Cor.15:28) nor is death [e.g. 2nd death] abolished yet.

So death is not abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ’s reign (v.25) & will not happen till He quits reigning. Also those humans who died a second death in the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

Neither is “all rule and authority and power” yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God “all in all” (1 Cor.15:28). God cannot be “all in all” (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing?

Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be “in all” (1 Cor.15:28).

The LOF is second death. When that death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) then God will become “All in all” (v.28) including everyone who was ever in Adam (v.22), i.e. universal salvation.
Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be “in all” (1 Cor.15:28).

The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection “in Christ” as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of “every creature” & to emphasize this again he repeats “and all that are in them”:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - “the Lamb that was slain” (v.12 & 13).

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

Of course, like all sinners, which all men are before salvation, they must be saved before they can enter the New Jerusalem. That’s why it’s gates will never be shut.

On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. (Rev.21:25)

The kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it:

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

How can they do that unless they were outside the city gates before?

“In the Book of Revelation, the phrase “kings of the earth” appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the “kings of the earth” will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where “nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life” (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem.”

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

She posted no Scripture to support her opinion that “immortality…is the gift to all who believe…in this life…alone”. Nowhere does Scripture say anyone will never receive immortality. OTOH Christ is the firstfruit of those raised immortal which will include all human beings (1 Cor.15:22-28). As for Romans 6:23, the following discussion is from another forum:

Everyone has sinned, so every fallen human being receives the wages of sin, which is death. Does that, then, mean by “death” that everyone is annihilated forever? Obviously not.

Scripture knows nothing of any endless death, but says that death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

“Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead.”

1 Cor.15: 28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Beyond all that, your translation is misleading, as the OP of this thread implies. A more literal honest version is:

Rom_6:23 “For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord.” (CLV)

Romans already revealed that everyone will obtain “life” & be “constituted just”:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life’s justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between “the many” who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Hebrews 9:27 does not say there are “no second chances after death”. If there’s no postmortem salvation, what happens to those who die as infants? Does God’s love have an expiry date like a carton of milk? If Love Omnipotent doesn’t save all, is it because He is unable or because He doesn’t want to?

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

What is the point of this suffering? Sadism?

This lame argument by Piper claims Col.1:20 refers to the new heavens & new earth & excludes those in the lake of fire. He ignores the parallel of the context:

Col.1:16 For by Him ALL was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ALL to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

“The passage in Colossians couldn’t be any clearer. The “all things” that were created in verse 16 are the same “all things” that are reconciled in verse 20.”

.The Mystery according to Paul in Ephesians

P.S. “no more than 3 consecutive posts in a thread” rule required i add to this post rather than create a new post. I’ll add more later.


#20

Why the f… don’t you just write a freekin book. Publish it and we’ll all buy it.

:roll_eyes:


#21

Yep… I shudder to think how much bandwidth gets chewed up and wasted on this site by so much brainless and needless repetition. :open_mouth:


#22

Isa.66:23 And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.
Isa.66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched;
and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(1) First of all, Isa.66:22-24 makes no mention of what has become of the souls of the “corpses” referred to:

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall
be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(2) Secondly, nothing in verses 22-24 says verses 23 & 24 refer to the lake of fire or the new earth. Consider Option A at the following re a premillennial take on Isa.65 & 66:

(3) I wonder how “corpses” (v.24) would survive in a lake of fire. Or worms (v.24) . OTOH worms could survive in a millennial eon garbage dump called Gehenna. As could “corpses” survive that were in parts of the garbage dump that were not completely consumed by fire.

(4) If it were the new earth, why does verse 23 refer to new moons and the sabbath?

“The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee; but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory” (Isa.60:19)

Rev.21:22 But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God
illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.
25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

(5) Even if the reference is to the new earth, if there are still “corpses” of the dead in the lake of fire, how is it that death has already been abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28)?

“Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead.”

(6) For an interesting take on our passage, there is this alleged view:

“It is interesting that many of these comments touch on the concept that is well-articulated by C.S. Lewis’ mentor, George McDonald, in his sermon, “The Consuming Fire.” The concept is that God himself is the consuming fire and he will burn away all our iniquities, including those of Satan, who will emerge from the experience as the purified Lucifer, as he was created to be. This is what is pictured in Isaiah 66:24 where all beings will look upon their old selves as carcasses burning in God’s eternally consuming fire. To understand this picture one must realize that the perspective is that of a totally redeemed eternal being looking back on his or her past life and sensing some regret for their own sins.”

  1. In any case, when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28) & all are made new (Rev.21:5, 5:13), the dead in the second death (lake of fire) will rise back to life “in Christ” & God will be “all in all” (1 Cor.15:22,28). IOW there will be universal salvation of every person that has ever lived since Adam was created.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Mark9:49 “For everyone will be salted with fire.”

Nothing there says tortures are endless. Instead it refers to a fire and worm. And a fire that is not quenched can end or burn out on it’s own, as proven by:

"Let us see how the word “asbestos (unquenchable) was used by the Greeks. Strabo calls it the lamp in the Parthenon, and Plutarch calls the sacred fire of a temple “unquenchable,” though they were extinguished long ago. Josephus, the Jewish Priest who saw the destruction of Jerusalem says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was “always unquenchable” abeston aei, yet he was there when the fire on the altar was forever extinguished. Eusibius, the church historian who lived in Constantine’s day says that certain martyrs of Alexandria “were burned in unquenchable fire.” The fire was put out within an hour! Homer speaks of “unquenchable laughter” asbestos gelos, (Iliad, I: 599)”

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew5/D5-BibleThreateningsExplained.html

Nothing here says they stay in Gehenna for endless ages, so can’t come out. Neither does it say that while in Gehenna there is no salvation. In the book of Revelation the gates into the
city of God are always open. God says He is making “all” new (21:5).

unquenchabe is limited not endless…ancient examples given here:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=6V-A1h0EoEAC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=josephus+unquenchable+fire+temple&source=bl&ots=CcRUZODIis&sig=W7xttrBMezXGJ0eB3k-VBR4R1WU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPwqfAuZLOAhVK6IMKHfGXC8UQ6AEIHzAB#v=onepage&q=josephus%20unquenchable%20fire%20temple&f=false

Mark 9:43: “into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire.” First, the word “unquenchable” in the Bible is translated from the Greek word asbestos which simply means “not quenched.” In itself, that is not the same as “not ABLE to be quenched” or “unquenchable.” It is similar to God’s judgments being without appeal “until they have finished all his plans:”

“The fierce anger of the LORD will not diminish until it has finished all his plans. In the days to come, you will understand all this…”(Jer 30:24).

As for an immortal worm that never dies, some ECT commentators say it refers to the immortal soul. ECTers can’t agree amongst themselves what it means & Jesus didn’t elaborate. In Isaiah 66 the worm is spoken of in the same verse that speaks of “corpses”. So, they could be eating dead bodies during the millennial age eon.

“Perhaps unbeknownst to many traditionalists who cite this verse as a challenge to conditionalism, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 here, in which it is said explicitly that it is corpses being consumed by fire and maggots—not living beings. Those traditionalists who are aware of this nevertheless insist that the worm is depicted as never dying and the fire as never going out. But this is not what these idioms communicate.”

“The phrase “does not die” is used several times in the Hebrew scripture and does not mean will never die (Genesis 42:20; Exodus 30:20; Jeremiah 38:24). It means that someone or something will not die at a particular time or in a particular context.”

So such references could be about eating sinners sins or evil flesh nature till it is gone.

"Interesting aside, for what it may mean to anyone… Maggots are making a comeback in modern medicine. They gently debride wounds in a way no surgeon, however subtle, could possibly achieve. (http://www.monarchlabs.com/mdt) They nibble away the dead and decaying cells, allowing healthy, new, regenerated cells to thrive instead. Maggots only eat dead tissue, leaving the living tissue to thrive. I think there’s a big parallel there, but maybe I’m taking the “book of nature” to extremes. My husband’s doctor at Mayo told me they had them there, available by prescription only–special hygienic ones, of course! :lol: "

"All these things we consider to be bad (by knee-jerk reaction at least) can also be seen as good–judgment, brimstone (aka sulfur & also used in medicine then and now), even maggots. Fire also is used in scripture as symbolic of purification–and we mustn’t forget the nature of our God, who is, we’re told, “a consuming fire.”

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7523

“Now, salt too, just as the divine fire, is associated with the eschatological test in Mark 9:49, a text I have already analysed, where this fire is presented as purifying and performing the disinfecting function of salt: “all will be salted by this fire,” if they have lost their salt in this life.”(Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp., p.53)

“Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there [Gehenna] until you have paid up the last cent. The word ―until unmistakably confirms Gehenna is of a limited duration. Once the penalty is exacted, release follows, but not before. Note He addressed these words to a mixed audience of believers and unbelievers (Mt. 5:1;7:28; 8:1). (See also Mt. 18:34-35).” http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

4:39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”