The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Responding to a Calvinist


#23

I’ve linked to responses re these verses in my first post of this thread. Additionally, there is nothing in Mt.10:28 that mentions the human opinion that anyone “can ultimately and finally perish”. And further to 2 Thess.1:9, to be “away from the presence of the Lord” is to still exist, not be endlessly annihilated.

Romans 6:23 was addressed earlier in the thread. As for John 3:36:

The disobedient are under God’s wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, “He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him.”

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): “He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him.”

Young’s Literal Translation: “He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him.”

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God’s love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is “after eonian life” (mistranslated in the KJV “eternal life”):

“…in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127).”

http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/view/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord’s WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Clearly it is “time limited”. All were at one time “unbelievers” with the “wrath of God” on them. Yet many of those unbelievers became believers. These believers no longer have the “wrath of God” on them. There - was - a “time limit” to how long the “wrath of God” was on them. And likewise there was a “time limit” till those who “shall not see life” did in fact “see life”.

Even apostates who had once believed are being sought by God for salvation & being corrected for their own good:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

Origen even makes so-called “eternal life” (“eonian life” in literal translations) finite when he speaks of “after eternal life” & “beyond eternal life”:

(19) “And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.” (Origen’s Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=TuHTu3BJyywC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for “shame everlasting”(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong’s Greek: 152. ??? (aischuné) – shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: “For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget”.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:


http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as “endless”, “no end” & “never be saved” as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2937070-how-scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Jesus didn’t use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn’t believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into “the ages of the ages”) being finite:


#24

Christ is the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world (Cf. Jn.1:29). That is even greater than canceling a sin debt. It is the removal of sin. That makes the world sinless, i.e. saved from sin. And this is for the entire human race, every individual that ever existed. Similarly there is Mt.1:21; 2:6, which speaks of the saving of Israel from their sins.

They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)

This states the purpose of Love Omnipotent’s - divine will - in sending His Son:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

There we see God’s reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the “divine will”:

“In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” https://translate.academic.ru/ἵνα/el/xx/