The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Revelation discussion

There is an interesting discussion going on here:

From post #527 by Oldmantook.

From post #538 by Oldmantook:

1 Like

Here are some of my thoughts.

The kingdom process

There seems to be a break in chronology between chapter 22 v 15 and v 17. Meaning, v 15 seems to be about the world post-‘final judgment’, and then v 16 brings the revelation back to John’s day, so that v 17 is about people in John’s day and up until the end. With that said, if we admit that John chronologically leaps around in his revelation, then we must be open to the possibility that 5:13 is a vision of things after the lake of fire judgment.

So no threat to universalism.

I believe 5.13 is a quote of a quote. Paul had quoted this from the OT & John either quotes Paul or the original OT verse, but I believe it is prophetic for a time after the LOF. 22.16 is interesting as it could be a flashback but not necessarily & 22.17 is my favorite bible verse as I take it as an invitation to folks still in the LOF.

Post #820 by Oldmantook:

Some added remarks by Oldmantook from the same discussion:

post # 542:

You have abysmally failed to deal the the text of Rev 22:14. You quote “doing his commandments” as if that changes the meaning of the verse. It is still in the present tense is it not?? FYI those in the new Jerusalem have ALREADY DONE HIS commandments. They have kept the faith and persevered despite being persecuted by the antichrist.
“Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.” Rev 12:17
“Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.” Rev 14:12
Because they endured by having kept the commandments and their faith in Jesus despite the antichrist’s persecution, the saints are the overcomers who now reside in the new Jerusalem. Thus they cannot be the ones washing their robes or doing his commandments in Rev 22:14. Since the saints are already in the new Jerusalem, how can they be the ones who WILL HAVE (future tense) the right to the tree of life and SHALL ENTER (subjunctive with result clause) the city gates? Only those outside the city in the LOF will have the right to the tree of life and shall enter the city - as they continue to wash their robes/continue to do His commandments. The saints who are in the city already have the right to the tree of life and have already entered the city gates.

post #545:

You have just repeated your same claims like a broken record. The wicked are indeed outside the city - in the lake of fire. However, they do not remain there. because they are washing their robes as opposed to the saints in the city who have already washed their robes. Rev 7:14 which you cited makes it clear that the saints have already washed their robes and have made them white. Since their robes are already white, how can the saints in the city continue to be washing their robes which have already been made white?? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Furthermore, you have avoided addressing the verb tenses in this verse as it states that this group WILL HAVE THE RIGHT to the tree of life and SHALL ENTER the city by its gates. The saints are already in the city so it is not possible that this verse refers to them as they already possess the right to the tree of life and they have already entered the city gates. This leaves only the sinners in the LOF who will have the right to the tree of life and shall enter the city gates. You continue to ignore this inconvenient detail.

post 652:

I find it quite revealing that you refuse to answer my question about about who are those that WILL HAVE THE RIGHT to the tree of life and who SHALL ENTER the city gates when the saints by definition already possess the right to the tree of life and have already taken up residence in the new Jerusalem. Your avoidance in answering my direct question to you certainly doesn’t do much to support or advance your belief.

post 689:

Actually not helpful at all. I could have missed it but I do not see anywhere in your posts that you have addressed the fact that since the saints ARE ALREADY IN THE CITY, how can you claim that they are the same ones who WILL HAVE THE RIGHT to the tree of life and SHALL ENTER the city gates. The saints in the city already have their reward. Your reply is no where to be found.

post 890

Your post #533 does not even address the Greek text. Why is that? Instead you assume things about the Greek that are simply not true which betrays your unfamiliarity with the Greek. Are you not aware that the English translations do not always line up with the original language yet you continue to rely on them without bothering to check for yourself? That amounts to presumption, if not laziness. As I wrote earlier and have repeated several times BOTH “wash robes” and “do his commandments” ARE PRESENT TENSE PARTICIPLES. Thus they are translated as “washing” or “doing.” Those in the new Jerusalem have already WASHED their robes/DONE God’s commandment thus it is impossible for v.14 to be referring to them.

Again, you rely on quoting others which does not even address the issue. The saints in the city have already washed their robes per the requirement of Rev 14:12. Therefore they cannot be the ones washing robes/doing his commandments in Rev 22:14 as you have already admitted that the prophecy is completed in this verse and v.15. You have not addressed the fact that the sinners in the LOF are the only ones left to go about washing their robes/doing his commandments. Someone has to be the one doing his commandments in v.14 and it certainly cannot be the saints who have already done his commandments and kept their faith in Jesus. Care to address this discrepancy with your view?

While you think about that, I’ll toss you another bone to chew on.
Question to you: Why and how do the “kings of the earth” referenced in Rev 21:23-27 enter into the new Jerusalem?

23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Oldmantook responded to your (qaz’s) remark above as follows:

post #905 at:

Are you copy/pasting things I write on here onto other forums?

If you follow the link i posted here to post #904 there you can see the one & only “thing” i posted.

If you want me to engage your friend (and him engage me), I’d prefer you invite him here. I find it preferable to playing telephone.

My post had a link to this thread, so i guess if he wants to come here he will.

Personally i haven’t yet had the time to look at the discussion closely enough to form any opinion, but just glancing at it it looked like maybe there - might - be something to his position.