Revelation discussion

Origen · April 30, 2020, 6:25am

There is an interesting discussion going on here:

From post #527 by Oldmantook.

Origen · April 30, 2020, 7:05am

From post #538 by Oldmantook:

Okay apparently you don’t know Greek so I’ll help you out.

Let’s get some things straight first.

The new heaven and new earth appear (Rev 21:1) and the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven (Rev 21:2). The saints live in the New Jerusalem and obviously they have no need to wash their robes as they have already washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:14).

With that understanding we come to Rev 22:14 which states:

Blessed are those washing their robes, that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter into the city by the gates. (BLB)

We know that this verse cannot be referring to the saints living in the New Jerusalem because they have already washed their robes. The word for “wash” in v.14 is plynontes, which is a present tense participle accurately parsed as “washing.” So the germane question is: Since the saved saints in the city have already washed their robes, who are the persons still washing their robes? There is only one group of people other than the saints and that is the group of people who live outside the city in the lake of fire as described in the very next verse.

Outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving and practicing falsehood. Rev 22:15 (BLB)

Thus v.14 refers to v.15 as they are the only ones yet to finish washing their robes as those in the city have already washed their robes. The sinners in the lake of fire are the only ones washing/plynontes their robes. V.14 states they are “blessed” for washing their robes. V.14 states their right “will be” to the tree of life. “Will be” is translated from the Greek word “estai” which is a future, indicative verb. This verb in the future tense and indicative mood indicates that those in the lake of fire will have the right to the tree of life as the indicative mood conveys a statement of fact and the future tense conveys that this action/right will occur in the future. Furthermore, the Greek word eiselthōsin translated as “shall enter” is a aorist, subjunctive verb. When the subjunctive mood is used in a purpose or result clause, then the action should not be thought of as a possible result, but should be viewed as a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action. Thus as a result of the action of washing their robes, the sinners in the lake of fire will DEFINITELY experience the outcome of shall enter the city by its gates.

Thus your claim that no one gets a second chance in the lake of fire is false as this passage evidences otherwise. Those dogs, sorcerers, sexually immoral, etc. have to go through the lake of fire and wash their robes in order to have the right to the tree of life and enter the city gates.

Bowsixtysix · April 30, 2020, 4:24pm

Here are some of my thoughts.

The kingdom process

steve7150 · May 1, 2020, 2:28am

I believe 5.13 is a quote of a quote. Paul had quoted this from the OT & John either quotes Paul or the original OT verse, but I believe it is prophetic for a time after the LOF. 22.16 is interesting as it could be a flashback but not necessarily & 22.17 is my favorite bible verse as I take it as an invitation to folks still in the LOF.

Origen · May 1, 2020, 8:31pm

Post #820 by Oldmantook:

Your explanation still makes no sense based on your reply. You stated that Rev 22:1-10 is John’s vision of what is to come. Thus vs.14 & 15 happen after the vision has been completed. As a result of that completed vision, the saints are rewarded and the wicked are punished as described in vs. 14 & 15.
The completed picture is that the saints are now living happily ever after in the new Jerusalem while the sinners outside the city, in the the lake of fire, are eternally condemned to either punishment or annihilation. So far, so good. However:

As proof you quote Rev 22:14:BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

The big problem is that that is not how the verse reads. It is an INACCURATE translation. Instead v.14 properly reads:
Blessed are those washing their robes, that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter into the city by the gates. (BLB) As I wrote earlier pay attention to the participle and verb tenses.
You have stated that the vision is completed and consequently the saints have received their reward and already dwell in the new Jerusalem. How then can v.14 be descriptive of the saints? The prophecy has been fulfilled. The saints are already in the city while the sinners in the LOF are at the same time outside the city. The saints have already kept the commands and their faith in Jesus per Rev 14:12. They have washed their robes. Thus the saints cannot be the ones being referred to in v.14. The only group yet having to wash their robes/do the commandments are those in the LOF; thus v.14 refers to them and them alone. Do you care to explain why you use an inaccurate English translation to justify your belief?

Origen · May 2, 2020, 5:27pm

Some added remarks by Oldmantook from the same discussion:

post # 542:

You have abysmally failed to deal the the text of Rev 22:14. You quote “doing his commandments” as if that changes the meaning of the verse. It is still in the present tense is it not?? FYI those in the new Jerusalem have ALREADY DONE HIS commandments. They have kept the faith and persevered despite being persecuted by the antichrist.
“Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.” Rev 12:17
“Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.” Rev 14:12
Because they endured by having kept the commandments and their faith in Jesus despite the antichrist’s persecution, the saints are the overcomers who now reside in the new Jerusalem. Thus they cannot be the ones washing their robes or doing his commandments in Rev 22:14. Since the saints are already in the new Jerusalem, how can they be the ones who WILL HAVE (future tense) the right to the tree of life and SHALL ENTER (subjunctive with result clause) the city gates? Only those outside the city in the LOF will have the right to the tree of life and shall enter the city - as they continue to wash their robes/continue to do His commandments. The saints who are in the city already have the right to the tree of life and have already entered the city gates.

post #545:

You have just repeated your same claims like a broken record. The wicked are indeed outside the city - in the lake of fire. However, they do not remain there. because they are washing their robes as opposed to the saints in the city who have already washed their robes. Rev 7:14 which you cited makes it clear that the saints have already washed their robes and have made them white. Since their robes are already white, how can the saints in the city continue to be washing their robes which have already been made white?? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Furthermore, you have avoided addressing the verb tenses in this verse as it states that this group WILL HAVE THE RIGHT to the tree of life and SHALL ENTER the city by its gates. The saints are already in the city so it is not possible that this verse refers to them as they already possess the right to the tree of life and they have already entered the city gates. This leaves only the sinners in the LOF who will have the right to the tree of life and shall enter the city gates. You continue to ignore this inconvenient detail.

post 652:

I find it quite revealing that you refuse to answer my question about about who are those that WILL HAVE THE RIGHT to the tree of life and who SHALL ENTER the city gates when the saints by definition already possess the right to the tree of life and have already taken up residence in the new Jerusalem. Your avoidance in answering my direct question to you certainly doesn’t do much to support or advance your belief.

post 689:

Actually not helpful at all. I could have missed it but I do not see anywhere in your posts that you have addressed the fact that since the saints ARE ALREADY IN THE CITY, how can you claim that they are the same ones who WILL HAVE THE RIGHT to the tree of life and SHALL ENTER the city gates. The saints in the city already have their reward. Your reply is no where to be found.

post 890

Your post #533 does not even address the Greek text. Why is that? Instead you assume things about the Greek that are simply not true which betrays your unfamiliarity with the Greek. Are you not aware that the English translations do not always line up with the original language yet you continue to rely on them without bothering to check for yourself? That amounts to presumption, if not laziness. As I wrote earlier and have repeated several times BOTH “wash robes” and “do his commandments” ARE PRESENT TENSE PARTICIPLES. Thus they are translated as “washing” or “doing.” Those in the new Jerusalem have already WASHED their robes/DONE God’s commandment thus it is impossible for v.14 to be referring to them.

Again, you rely on quoting others which does not even address the issue. The saints in the city have already washed their robes per the requirement of Rev 14:12. Therefore they cannot be the ones washing robes/doing his commandments in Rev 22:14 as you have already admitted that the prophecy is completed in this verse and v.15. You have not addressed the fact that the sinners in the LOF are the only ones left to go about washing their robes/doing his commandments. Someone has to be the one doing his commandments in v.14 and it certainly cannot be the saints who have already done his commandments and kept their faith in Jesus. Care to address this discrepancy with your view?

While you think about that, I’ll toss you another bone to chew on.
Question to you: Why and how do the “kings of the earth” referenced in Rev 21:23-27 enter into the new Jerusalem?

23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Origen · May 2, 2020, 7:13pm

Oldmantook responded to your (qaz’s) remark above as follows:

Correct. V.15 is final judgment status where the sinners end up in the lake of fire. However, I don’t agree with the supposition that v.17 then reverts back to John’s day prophetic word, prior to the end as you wrote. I believe it occurs after that. V.17 occurs after v.15 when we know that the judgment of sinners has already occurred. Thus the sinners are already in the LOF - yet the invitation to “come” in v.17 is still being extended. Most notably, the participles in this verse are in the present tense:
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And the one hearing, let him say, “Come!” And the one thirsting let him come; the one desiring, let him take freely the water of life. (BLB)

So the whole picture we have is this. The sinners are in the LOF in v.15 but the invitation to come to partake of the waters of life is still being extended in v.17. The saints have no need to come as they have already partaken of the waters of life. Thus it is the sinners who are still in the LOF who have to come by hearing, thirsting and desiring the waters of life. This verse is another one that disproves the false notion that those in the LOF don’t get a second chance.

post #905 at:

Origen · May 2, 2020, 10:56pm

If you follow the link i posted here to post #904 there you can see the one & only “thing” i posted.

Origen · May 2, 2020, 11:04pm

My post had a link to this thread, so i guess if he wants to come here he will.

Personally i haven’t yet had the time to look at the discussion closely enough to form any opinion, but just glancing at it it looked like maybe there - might - be something to his position.