Revival, why didn't God warn Adam and Eve...?

[dirtboy]

I think the point of the OP question is not why, but how can people be sent to eternal torture for something they knew nothing about. If I’m wrong dirtboy you can correct me.

God is just. To tell someone that to sin will mean you die and never tell them that to sin means you die and then are tortured for all of eternity is not just. (Nevermind the fact that our finite minds cannot even comprehend eternity). That is what I believe dirtboy is getting at. God never said anything about eternal consequences for all that time, what should they have just figured it out on their own? Maybe God is really a woman, He says one thing, but expects you know what He really meant

Speaking of just measures, how does 80 years weigh equally against eternity?

That’s exactly what I was getting at!

[redhotmagma]

I think the point of the OP question is not why, but how can people be sent to eternal torture for something they knew nothing about. If I’m wrong dirtboy you can correct me.

God is just. To tell someone that to sin will mean you die and never tell them that to sin means you die and then are tortured for all of eternity is not just. (Nevermind the fact that our finite minds cannot even comprehend eternity). That is what I believe dirtboy is getting at. God never said anything about eternal consequences for all that time, what should they have just figured it out on their own? Maybe God is really a woman, He says one thing, but expects you know what He really meant

Speaking of just measures, how does 80 years weigh equally against eternity?

That’s exactly what I was getting at!

sorry if I ruined your socratic method

[dirtboy]

Revival, why didn’t God warn Adam and Eve that their sin would bring them eternal hell and would condemn all of their offspring to an evil nature and potential hell as well?

If hell is eternal doesn’t it seem that God telling Adam that he would die if he ate of the fruit is a bit of an understatement? Wouldn’t you want to tell your son the real consequences of his actions (eternal punishment), especially if they were so grave? Why would God wait several thousand years to tell his creation about eternal hell?

Also, after Adam and Eve sinned, why didn’t God mention eternal hell if that was the consequence of sin? Wasn’t his discussion about work and painful childbirth a massive understatement if most of creation was going to potentially end up in hell for eternity?

I don’t know all the conversations God had with Adam and Eve for God only recorded the ones he wanted us to know. God told them not to eat of the fruit. Just don’t do it or you will die. That is a warning of its self not to do something, and if you do it there are consequences.

First, hell is not eternal. It is a temporary place of torment for unbelievers until final judgment. The lake of fire is eternal torment of separation from God. I really don’t need to know when God decided to tell creation about hell or the lake of fire… I just need to know that it is real place of eternal judgment.

The problem with your mentality - the one that doesn’t care whether God tells anyone the REAL consequences of their sins; the one that doesn’t care that for supposedly thousands of years God was condemning non repentant sinners to eternal torment when they didn’t even know that this would be the result of their sin and they didn’t even have any way to fend it off; the problem is that, what if you are wrong? You see, people take their interpretations of what God is saying and make it the same thing as what God is saying. As a result, theology cannot be judged wrong because it sounds like you are saying that God is wrong

Try this: for the moment, even though you vehemently disagree, pretend that your view of God was wrong. Let’s say that God really did intend to redeem all of mankind and not leave anyone being punished for countless trillions of years. IF ECT were incorrect it would NOT glorify God! In fact, it would demonize him because it would take a gracious, forgiving God and say that he will remain angry and wrathful against most of mankind for all eternity (which of course contradicts numerous scriptures that teach that God is not angry forever, does not cast off forever, etc). This would be a lie about God, and lies about God do not glorify Him! When God is actually forgiving, other men are saying he is not. Can you see how, if ECT was incorrect, it would not bring glory to God?

[dirtboy]

I think the point of the OP question is not why, but how can people be sent to eternal torture for something they knew nothing about. If I’m wrong dirtboy you can correct me.

God is just. To tell someone that to sin will mean you die and never tell them that to sin means you die and then are tortured for all of eternity is not just. (Nevermind the fact that our finite minds cannot even comprehend eternity). That is what I believe dirtboy is getting at. God never said anything about eternal consequences for all that time, what should they have just figured it out on their own? Maybe God is really a woman, He says one thing, but expects you know what He really meant

Speaking of just measures, how does 80 years weigh equally against eternity?

That’s exactly what I was getting at!

sorry if I ruined your socratic method

What you said was great! I appreciated the clarity.

[corpselight]

For me it was studying what scripture actually says and doesn’t say concerning Hell that freed me to accept in faith that Jesus really is the savior of All, in deed not just in title. Hell, ECT is not warned of in the Garden, in the Law, or by the Prophets! To me this is a key point. And it is not as if the concept of ECT was not around back then. The Egyptians believed in a form of ECT and Annihilation, and Moses would have been familiar with that. So Moses not including such in the Law or in his telling of the creation account is significant - to me. Shoot, the Hebrew scriptures do not even have one word that correctly translates as Hell. To me this was significant and really shook my traditional beliefs in Hell.

So I went to the NT, but soon found that neither Hades nor Gehenna meant Hell either, though they were often **mistranslated **as such. And the Greeks certainly had a word that meant Hell, ECT - Tartarus. If Jesus or the writers of the NT intended to communicate the concept of ECT then Tartarus was the word to use! But not once in scripture is Tartarus used as a warning for humans. Not once is Tartarus warned of for humans. But it was used once for sinning angels, thus showing that the writers of the NT were familiar with the word and not afraid to use it. But of course, even this passage only says that the sinning angels are held there until judgment - thus not for humans and not endless.

It was finding that Gehenna, Hinnom Valley was a real place with a real and infamous history, and used by the Pharisees as a theological metaphor kinda like Purgatory, that freed me to reject the concept of Hell/ECT.

I started the study of scripture concerning Hell believing that the traditional doctrine of Hell was as rock-solid Castle only to find out that the more I examined in, the more it crumbled between my fingers like sand. It scared me so I grabbed tower after tower, wall after wall, only to find they were just sand. What I had been taught all my life to be Rock Solid, I found to be nothing but a Sand Castle! After I found the first few towers to crumble, I even called many people asking them to pray for me because what I was finding was scaring the Hell out of me! But the more I studied, well, the more I found my traditional beliefs to not line up with what scripture actually says.

I actually came to disbelieve in Hell and believe in UR for several months before I would even admit such to myself. Until one day in a traditional charismatic worship service the Lord spoke to me very clearly saying, “Stop Lying!” That’s all He said, but I knew exactly what He meant. He meant, 1) Stop lying to myself and admit I’ve come to believe in UR. And 2) Stop lying to others and admit openly that I’ve come to believe in UR, and stop saying that, oh, I’ve just been studying… It was also interesting that the Lord did not give me any reason for doing so, or even affirm that I was right. He only said, “Stop Lying”.

I knew that such openess and honesty would cost me dearly. It might cost me my job, long-term friendships, the respect and love of many people, and might even cost me my marriage. I suppose that’s why I was so hesitant to admit to myself, much less to anyone else that I had, deep down inside at the subconscious level, come to believe that “Joy to the World” is not just a catchy slogan, but that the birth of Jesus ultimately results in Joy to the whole world, not just a few, but to the whole world, not just to humanity even, but to all of creation! Joy to the World, the Lord is Come! Let earth receive her King. Let every heart prepare him room. And heaven and nature sing…

Well, it did cost me much. Almost lost my current livelyhood, job at a ministry. Was excluded from my local fellowship. Long-term friends turned their back on me. Even family members have shunned me and said all manner of evil about me, false accusations, even trying to drive a wedge between my wife and children and I. At one point I could see myself loosing everything, and I went crazy with rage for about 3 days. So angry I could spit fire, so angry I was afraid to be around my family because I didn’t know if I’d strike out in rage. So I spent three days in the park and woods near my house, alone, wrestling with the Lord. It was a terrible time, and I feel like I’m still limping along. But the Lord did meet me there, comfort my heart, and encourage me. I was empowered to forgive others, and even came to see that the events that hurt me so were directed by Him. He wanted to break me, and He did. And He allowed, even orchestrated others doing so. This brokeness though will produce in me precious fruit I trust. “Blessed are the broken, the poor in spirit, the hungry, the mournful…” These are things we do not want to embrace, to experience, much less have loooooooong seasons of such. But I trust that though weeping lasts for the night, Joy will come in the mourning; that though Fall sees everything dying and Winter everything turns cold, Spring, warmth and new life will eventually come, and we shall even a season of greater fruitfulness, summer, eventually come.

In the words of one of my favorite hymns:
“This is my story. This is my song. Praising my Savior all the day long. This is my story. This is my song. Praising my Savior all the day long! Perfect submission, all is at rest. …”

beautiful post, Sherman, thanks for sharing that!

[Caroleem]

beautiful post, Sherman, thanks for sharing that!

Ditto! …but i dont think the ECT’s believers we have here would agree.

[corpselight]

beautiful post, Sherman, thanks for sharing that!

Ditto! …but i dont think the ECT’s believers we have here would agree.

true, but they need to extend the respect due such an experience.
far from coming to UR through emotionalism and preconceptions, Sherman has demonstrated neatly how the reverse is true. i’m sure it’s true for most of us here…raised in ECT friendly churches, so armed with all the negative preconceptions you could want to discourage us from exploring UR…and then the Bible itself being the very thing that convinced us.

but that doesn’t fit in to certain peoples’ blinkered view

[Caroleem]

^ so true.

[Revival]

^ so true.

I’m not buying that… just kidding…

[Revival]

beautiful post, Sherman, thanks for sharing that!

Ditto! …but i dont think the ECT’s believers we have here would agree.
true, but they need to extend the respect due such an experience.
far from coming to UR through emotionalism and preconceptions, Sherman has demonstrated neatly how the reverse is true. i’m sure it’s true for most of us here…raised in ECT friendly churches, so armed with all the negative preconceptions you could want to discourage us from exploring UR…and then the Bible itself being the very thing that convinced us.

but that doesn’t fit in to certain peoples’ blinkered view

I respect it, but I don’t have to agree with it.

[dirtboy]

I respect it, but I don’t have to agree with it.

Revival,

Try this: for the moment, even though you vehemently disagree, pretend that your view of God was wrong. Let’s say that God really did intend to redeem all of mankind and not leave anyone being punished for countless trillions of years. IF ECT were incorrect it would NOT glorify God! In fact, it would demonize him because it would take a gracious, forgiving God and say that he will remain angry and wrathful against most of mankind for all eternity (which of course contradicts numerous scriptures that teach that God is not angry forever, does not cast off forever, etc). This would be a lie about God, and lies about God do not glorify Him! When God is actually forgiving, other men are saying he is not. Can you see how, if ECT was incorrect, it would not bring glory to God?

[URPilgrim]

For me it was studying what scripture actually says and doesn’t say concerning Hell that freed me to accept in faith that Jesus really is the savior of All, in deed not just in title. Hell, ECT is not warned of in the Garden, in the Law, or by the Prophets! To me this is a key point. And it is not as if the concept of ECT was not around back then. The Egyptians believed in a form of ECT and Annihilation, and Moses would have been familiar with that. So Moses not including such in the Law or in his telling of the creation account is significant - to me. Shoot, the Hebrew scriptures do not even have one word that correctly translates as Hell. To me this was significant and really shook my traditional beliefs in Hell.

So I went to the NT, but soon found that neither Hades nor Gehenna meant Hell either, though they were often **mistranslated **

as such. And the Greeks certainly had a word that meant Hell, ECT - Tartarus. If Jesus or the writers of the NT intended to communicate the concept of ECT then Tartarus was the word to use! But not once in scripture is Tartarus used as a warning for humans. Not once is Tartarus warned of for humans. But it was used once for sinning angels, thus showing that the writers of the NT were familiar with the word and not afraid to use it. But of course, even this passage only says that the sinning angels are held there until judgment - thus not for humans and not endless.

It was finding that Gehenna, Hinnom Valley was a real place with a real and infamous history, and used by the Pharisees as a theological metaphor kinda like Purgatory, that freed me to reject the concept of Hell/ECT.

I started the study of scripture concerning Hell believing that the traditional doctrine of Hell was as rock-solid Castle only to find out that the more I examined in, the more it crumbled between my fingers like sand. It scared me so I grabbed tower after tower, wall after wall, only to find they were just sand. What I had been taught all my life to be Rock Solid, I found to be nothing but a Sand Castle! After I found the first few towers to crumble, I even called many people asking them to pray for me because what I was finding was scaring the Hell out of me! But the more I studied, well, the more I found my traditional beliefs to not line up with what scripture actually says.

I actually came to disbelieve in Hell and believe in UR for several months before I would even admit such to myself. Until one day in a traditional charismatic worship service the Lord spoke to me very clearly saying, “Stop Lying!” That’s all He said, but I knew exactly what He meant. He meant, 1) Stop lying to myself and admit I’ve come to believe in UR. And 2) Stop lying to others and admit openly that I’ve come to believe in UR, and stop saying that, oh, I’ve just been studying… It was also interesting that the Lord did not give me any reason for doing so, or even affirm that I was right. He only said, “Stop Lying”.

I knew that such openess and honesty would cost me dearly. It might cost me my job, long-term friendships, the respect and love of many people, and might even cost me my marriage. I suppose that’s why I was so hesitant to admit to myself, much less to anyone else that I had, deep down inside at the subconscious level, come to believe that “Joy to the World” is not just a catchy slogan, but that the birth of Jesus ultimately results in Joy to the whole world, not just a few, but to the whole world, not just to humanity even, but to all of creation! Joy to the World, the Lord is Come! Let earth receive her King. Let every heart prepare him room. And heaven and nature sing…

Well, it did cost me much. Almost lost my current livelyhood, job at a ministry. Was excluded from my local fellowship. Long-term friends turned their back on me. Even family members have shunned me and said all manner of evil about me, false accusations, even trying to drive a wedge between my wife and children and I. At one point I could see myself loosing everything, and I went crazy with rage for about 3 days. So angry I could spit fire, so angry I was afraid to be around my family because I didn’t know if I’d strike out in rage. So I spent three days in the park and woods near my house, alone, wrestling with the Lord. It was a terrible time, and I feel like I’m still limping along. But the Lord did meet me there, comfort my heart, and encourage me. I was empowered to forgive others, and even came to see that the events that hurt me so were directed by Him. He wanted to break me, and He did. And He allowed, even orchestrated others doing so. This brokeness though will produce in me precious fruit I trust. “Blessed are the broken, the poor in spirit, the hungry, the mournful…” These are things we do not want to embrace, to experience, much less have loooooooong seasons of such. But I trust that though weeping lasts for the night, Joy will come in the mourning; that though Fall sees everything dying and Winter everything turns cold, Spring, warmth and new life will eventually come, and we shall even a season of greater fruitfulness, summer, eventually come.

In the words of one of my favorite hymns:
“This is my story. This is my song. Praising my Savior all the day long. This is my story. This is my song. Praising my Savior all the day long! Perfect submission, all is at rest. …”
beautiful post, Sherman, thanks for sharing that!

Yes! wonderful post I can relate to what you have been through…Father knows we only seek to love Him more in Spirit and Truth That hymn is one of my favorites also

[Lifemetal]

I agree with Sherman. If you look at the Greek words there is no evidence supporting anyone being eternally separated from God. If Jesus hadn’t come, died a death in every sin ever committed in past present and future, then rose from the grave we would all be eternally doomed, not to an everlasting pit of fire, but to death which holds all of us in the grave and away from Him. The only way you can escape the presence of an omnipresent God is if you die, because He is Life itself.

The only thing which can be related to hell in the Bible is the Lake of Fire. This is only surely spoken of in Revelation, and possibly referred to as Gehenna in other parts of the New Testament. Anyway, this Lake of Fire serves a different purpose than eternal separation, (which is what death serves) it is used for chastening those who God needs changed in order to accept His sacrifice. The Greek word used translated “punishment” describing the Lake of Fire or Gehenna is actually closer to chastening, implying teaching or correction, and the Greek word translated “eternal” or “everlasting” literally means an age, not forever.

If when Jesus had died He was taking our place in burning in fire for eternity, then the Father would’ve had to throw Jesus into a fire for eternity, but He didn’t do that. Why then, if death would be forever without Him, did He not have to stay in the grave forever? Well because when He died He bore everyone’s sins and shame, nothing more nothing less. The only reason we have to die and cannot rise from the grave on our own is because our hearts have sinned, but because Jesus never sinned in His heart, in His mind, or in His actions, He could bear the death of the sin of the world and still rise from the grave. If taking our place not only meant bearing our sins, but also bearing an eternal pit of fire, then He would indeed have to bear an eternal pit of fire, but He didn’t!

[JasonPratt]

Welcome to the forum, LM!

This thread was really set up as a discussion with “Revival”, who has been temporarily banned for misbehavior until next year, so who isn’t in a position to defend himself from challenges in this thread.

I’ve been locking threads related to him in order to protect him, consequently, until when-if-ever we let him back on. Normally I would lock this one, too, but “Dirtboy” started it.

Members should be aware that if they challenge Revival subsequently in this thread (which LM might not have been doing), the ad/mods will probably delete your challenge and/or lock the thread, as it isn’t fair to add new things toward him while he can’t defend himself.

Discussing topics with other members is okay, of course.