The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Rewiring your brain

Evangelical Universalism
#1

Hello again to all,

I know I introduced myself a few months ago, but haven’t posted since. Make no mistake though, I do follow the discussions that you guys post up a lot. Jason, Sobernost, allen, paidion, cindy, and the rest, you all have much to say that is worth thinking over and has been very helpful. I’ve finished several books, Talbott’s and Parry’s, looking at what Hanson and some others wrote. I guess I’m a hopeful universalist, not quite dogmatic yet, but getting there. I’ve had many discussions with family and friends over the issue. Some are very Arminian, some are very Calvinistic, and my poor mother…I know it’s difficult for someone like her that’s spent her entire life in a Southern Baptist church faithfully, week in and week out doing what the good Lord wants her to do, that has a son who has spent years discussing different theological systems, theodicy, election/predestination/free will, textual differences between the LXX and MT.

I vacationed with my old roommate from school 2 weeks ago and discussed universal reconciliation and penal substitutionary atonement with him at length. He agreed to take some of the books I had and read them. We took a lot of the same classes together at school, Romans, Hebrews, OT and NT survey, Sys theo I, II, and III, etc. He’s the person that I’ve reasoned through theology with the most in my life, so it helps!

Anyway, to the point of this thread. It means exactly what it says. I’m trying to rewire my brain. I’ve been taught to read the text in a certain way that when I see something, I automatically integrate it into the theological system that I reluctantly adopted. It is difficult because I was not exactly dogmatized in Calvinism at school, but it was a strong underlying system that was reasoned out in some of the courses I took…not all though (and I’m lumping in determinism with Calvinism there too). My alma mater has a very strong missionary focus too, and some of my good childhood friends are out there today. I never wanted to be a Calvinist or determinist, but at the time, I couldn’t reason my way out of it; and I hated it. After discovering the possibility of UR, I have a hope that I haven’t had in years, and I believe it’s true. I just don’t know how it’s all going to play out yet. But now that I’ve been exposed to it, I can see it all over the NT and OT.

How long did it take you guys to really embrace UR and be convinced that it is true? I am convinced that it is true on a level, but like I said, I’m trying to rewire my brain when studying too.

#2

When I started composing Sword to the Heart back in late 1999, which was an experiment to see how far I could take metaphysics toward theism, I was absolutely not a Christian universalist, and I thought the term only referred to people who thought all doctrines to be true (except the ones they didn’t agree with, of course. :wink: )

By the time I finished in early 2000, much to my surprise I had concluded that if trinitarian theism was true then Christian universalism must be technically true, even if God might permanently stalemate trying to save some sinners – but He’d still keep at it forever for everyone until He got it done, and I realized it didn’t take much faith for me to bet on the omnipotent, omniscient side of that struggle. :wink:

The scriptural testimony at the time I couldn’t quite account for, but I expected any decisive evidence in favor of ECT would fit the eventual stalemate scenario at worst. (I regarded the scriptural evidence to be better for ECT than anni, and still do.) So I spent the next several years taking my time about studying the scriptures carefully (and much more thoroughly than I had up until then), since I didn’t want to rush into a conclusion one way or another. What I did make a point of insisting on, though, was that if I was going to believe trinitarian theism to be true, I shouldn’t interpret the scriptures in such a way as to deny ortho-trin (or supernaturalistic theism more generally of course. Obviously that protocol would be cheating when considering whether scriptural testimony adds up to ortho-trin, so I don’t apply it when considering that question, but soteriology should follow from theology coherently.)

That was the main rewiring I did: if I decide ortho-trin is true, then on other topics (not while continuing to check if ortho-trin is true, since that would be circular or begging the question) I ought to be a lot more careful about not denying a point of ortho-trin.

And I will mention here from experience that I have never yet found a proponent of hopeless punishment (whether some variety of ECT, or anni) who did not inadvertently deny trinitarian theism, or even more basic supernaturalistic theism, sooner or later.

#3

You’re right bj, it takes effort and time to rewire one’s brain. It took me about a year of disciplined study and even then it took a personal word from God for me to admit to myself that I’d come to believe in UR.

I used to say to myself and others that I was just “studying” scripture concerning the possibility of UR. I’d study anti-UR material and share my pro-UR findings in scripture with others, actually looking for someone to present a convincing argument for me to not believe in UR. I did not want to embrace UR because I knew that it would cause me much trouble, which it has. But one Sunday during worship Our Father spoke to me sternly saying, “Stop Lying”. And I understood exactly what He meant. He meant, “Stop Lying to yourself, you believe in UR; you’re no longer ‘just studying it’”. And He meant for me to openly share what I’d come to believe though it did cause me trouble. And well, I did and it did.

So hang in there and keep studying, stay only hopeful as long as you can. I now openly share that I’m a convinced universalist. I don’t use the “dogmatic” terminology because it implies to many a level of intolerance of other beliefs which is not what I wish to communicate. I’m convinced that Jesus fails to save none that He loves and that He loves all. I’m also pretty sure I could be wrong about everything; if UR is true then I’ve been wrong for 49 years and only right on this issue 2. We trust in the Lord with all of our hearts and rely not upon our own understanding.

Blessings,
Sherman

#4

I can’t really add much, other than I suggest reading Gods Final Victory, and having a look through the big list of universalists on this site and looking at the quotes. All the best! :slight_smile:

#5

Hi Friend -

Well it took ages for me - I’m still a bit wounded; but I press on with good courage :slight_smile: And I am a convinced universalist for the reasons Sherman gives. :slight_smile:

#6

I thank you guys for your words. I know what you mean Sherman. I don’t want to be a liar, and I honestly don’t want to speak or teach anything that is untrue, but I cannot believe in ETC or annihilationism anymore even though some texts on their surface (especially when reading them in English) seem to teach that. What I have been thinking about too is not reading any epistle, Gospel, or prophetic book with a larger underlying systematic theology overlaying the interpretation, but as a book in and of itself to see what it’s saying - like Paul’s reasoning in Romans which is pretty clear in his argument in chapter 11 “all Israel will be saved” and “He has bound up all in disobedience so that he may have mercy on all”. A lot of it has really opened my eyes to how much interpretive theology goes into translation, and even more so the history behind the adoption of the Masoritic Text over the Septuagint after the apostolic fathers (I was reading Isaiah 53 from both versions again today and the LXX version really drives a sword into the heart of modern PSA and Jesus taking God’s wrath on the cross). I guess my once sacred cows are being tipped over in a field somewhere by some high schoolers looking to have fun, but it is good. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about Paul saying that it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance or changing our minds; it’s true. That’s why retributive justice makes little since to me now. We are to speak of message of reconciliation and I think I’m finally able to start understanding that.

#7

I think it must have taken me 5 or 6 months of pretty intensive study before I could say I was really convinced. It took longer to rewire my brain. It meant re-evaluating my world view, my understanding of the character of God, ditching everything I had been so sure of and starting over again. And I had to learn to read what the text really said instead of filtering it through the lens of tradition.

It was very liberating to be able to let go of all that and just read what it said. I remember having a discussion about Romans 11 with my husband, early in our marriage, maybe 8 or 9 years before I encountered UR. I was certain Paul was at least saying that all of the nation of Israel would be saved (not just spiritual Israel), but given what I thought the Bible taught about the requirements for salvation, I couldn’t understand how that could be. My husband didn’t know either. That and other dilemmas were cleared up when UR became a valid option in my mind.

Now, having been immersed in UR for around 9 years, I have begun to forget what it was like to look at the world through ECT lenses. :sunglasses:

Sonia

#8

I get more and more convinced everyday, if that’s possible. My husband, dad, and I had frequent, intense conversations over dinner every night and, yet, it was still a few years until I became really convinced. It was a gradual process, one with many bridges to cross and lots of questions to be answered. I wish, now, that I would’ve documented more the process because I do think that we all have to cross similar bridges and it would’ve been interesting. There was a time when I could’ve recounted what all the bridges were, but I’ve since forgotten. Now I’m completely sold on it being God’s plan to reconcile all things. There’s no turning back. My brain continues to see things in new ways and I’m more and more impressed with the love of God.

#9

I understand completely. I think about it every day. It has had many repercussions in my thinking, such as justice being restorative and not retributive - to set things to rights, a dismantling of penal substitution in my mind (i.e. the Father did not pour out wrath on the Son), agreeing with NT Wright that just maybe the reformers got it wrong (which is heresy in some circles haha), and so on. It will take time to fully convince myself that this is reality, but I do believe it is the truth, and it has had the effect of helping me to be more loving and honest. It has also had an influence on my political views as well. Sometimes I wonder what exactly went through Paul’s mind when he wrote, and even if Peter and James and others completely didn’t understand what they had witnessed or been taught.

#10

It’s actually better than that, because it repairs the meaning of re-tributive punishment! (Bringing rebels back under loyal tribute.)