The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Rich Man and Lazarus

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

1.) I’d like to hear how some of you deal with these verses. Links to outside sources and/or book references are welcome of course.

I find it strange that people want to make it literal even though it is a parable.

2.) Is this the only place in scripture where the term “abraham’s bosom” is mentioned? I’ve heard people use this passage to try and create a place in sheol where the saints of old (pre-Christ) were kept while waiting for the Messiah. Presumably the non-saints of old were in hell and the saints of old were safe in abraham’s bosom since they couldn’t enter heaven until the Messiah came and preached to them and they believed it and followed Christ into heaven.

#2

Hi, Spaghetti Kid

I like Augustine’s interpretation of this parable (despite our other disagreements). Others have different opinions, but here is my take on it (it’s reasonably short, though in two parts): journeyintotheson.com/2012/0 … g-lazarus/

#3

Hi Spagetti Kid: One thing I have a hard time wrapping my mind around is that God is outside of time—He created time. I am not sure anyone ‘waits’ for anything in the afterlife because of this. God is/was/willbe everywhere and everywhen. When Jesus was in our world, He was bound by time, but after He Ascended I think He is no longer restricted by it.

Otherwise, I agree with you and Cindy—I really liked her link.

#4

Did God create space? Space is not a material. It’s simply the measurement of the distance between two objects. If there were no objects, there would be no space. So when God created the universe: moons, planets, stars, galaxies, etc. space was automatically there. It wasn’t anything material that had to be created.

The same with time. Time is a measurement of the temporal “distance” between the occurence of two events. If there were no events, there would be no time. So when God made things happen, time was automatically there. Time is not a substance which requires creation.

I can’t make sense out of the saying that God exists outside of time. He was involved with angelic beings since the beginning of time (when the first event occured), and with mankind from the time man was created, wasn’t He? To me, that surely indicates that He exists within time.

#5

Maybe I should have said He is not bound by time. Certainly He can be within it, Jesus was. But does He have to be? And can He be in more than one place at a time? I think the physics from His side of things might be a bit different than what we see. If time did not require creation, why is it relative and complicated.(to me anyway)

We think we have things reasonably understood–and boom here comes quantum mechanics. Oh, and according to the Science Channel there are now experiments either underway or in the planning stages because there was some indication that not even normal light (not affected by deep gravity) is not all moving at the same speed.

And if you create the stuff (planets, suns, etc.) that enables the thing (space) to be defined, isn’t that a kind of creation too? Or did God create the stuff and then the space to put between it? Are you saying space exsisted before God? Ok–stopping now and turning back to Lazarus and the Rich Man hopefully.

I believe in the Holy Trinity SpagettiKid, which means I think Jesus always exsisted even if not in Human form–oh bother, I am back to the time thing above. I think He could have talked with the OT saints anytime He wanted to. But being with Abraham while you waited would not have been bad either. I don’t remember seeing that expression before either but the OT is a big book, it would have been easy to miss.

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#6

Sometimes Jesus used the current beliefs of the Pharisees in order to bring home a truth. For example:

And as [Jesus] was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” (Mark 10:17 ESV)

And here is Jesus’ reply:

"You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” (Mark 10:19)

We know don’t we, that we do not inherit eternal life by keeping the ten commandments. Jesus knew it, too. But He also knew what the man believed. So Jesus went along with it for the moment.

And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” (Mark 10:20)

I have no doubt that the man told the truth. So why wasn’t the man content that He would have eternal life? No doubt he realized there was something missing.

And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” (Mark 10:21)

He lacked one thing. One little thing! He had to renounce his own self-serving life and become a disciple of Christ. That is the only way to inherit eternal life. It’s the same requirement today as it was then.

Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. (Mark 10:22) /color]

The man was willing to obey the commandments. But to forsake his luxurious life style, he was unwilling.

Jesus did a similar thing when He gave the parable of Dives and Lazarus. It was a common belief among the Pharisees that when a person died, he went to Hades, the underworld. If he were good he went to “Abraham’s bosom”, the comfortable part. If he were evil, he went to the uncomfortable part where he suffered from flames.

The Jewish historian, Josephus (37 A.D. to 100 A.D.) wrote an article now known as “Josephus’s Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades”. In that discourse, Josephus states as the place where all souls go after death. His description of the two sections is much the same as Jesus described in his parable, except it is in much greater detail.

As I see it, Jesus didn’t give the story of Dives and Lazarus because He was trying to teach the state of affairs in the afterlife. Rather he was using this common belief in his parable to show that even if it were possible for someone to return from the dead and warn people, they still would not repent.

#7

And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” (Mark 10:21)

He lacked one thing. One little thing! He had to renounce his own self-serving life and become a disciple of Christ. That is the only way to inherit eternal life. It’s the same requirement today as it was then.

Paidon, Paul advised the Phillipian Jailer “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your household”.
Is following Jesus a performance or a matter of faith?

Getting back to the question and circumventing the physics of the Universe. What is the parable about? Who is it addressing? What did they currently believe? What was the point? Who were the 5 brothers? How does this tie in with Jesus mission? I would love to here what thoughts arise.
Chrisb

#8

Following a person involves performance. Could anyone have been a follower of Karl Marx, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, or any other person without doing anything? If he did nothing, that would be a clear indication that he was not following the person.

Faith is the means to obtain the enabling grace of God, made possible through the death of Christ. That grace is required in order to “perform” — to work righteousness and eschew evil.

Paul taught that “performance” of some kind is necessary in order to have eternal life.

*For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, but glory and honour and well-being for
every one who does good… for God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-10)*