The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Robin Parry: On praying for the damned

Practices Christian Living
#21

Not EVERY objection. My objection is that the dead are DEAD. To pray for them is to pray for people who DO NOT EXIST.
I’m sure this statement is shocking to those who are brought up to believe that people go somewhere immediately after death—to Heaven or to Hell. But I disbelieve that that will happen until they are raised to life again at the last day.

The apostle John quoted four statements of Jesus’ in the same passage that He would raise His disciples to life on the last day:

So what’s the big deal about raising a body and attaching it to an immortal soul or spirit? But if this will be Jesus raising the WHOLE PERSON, and not merely his body, then our resurrection is of paramount importance.

I remember attending two different funerals on the same day. At the first, I heard the words, “Mr. H. will live again!” Those words sent a thrill through my whole being. At the second funeral, the speaker said, “Mrs. K did not die; she just walked through a door to heaven.” I felt no reality in the statement. It seemed like a fairy tale.

So in my opinion, it is a blasphemy to pray for the dead. It is an affront to Jesus who will someday raise all people from the dead, some to a resurrection of life, and some to a resurrection of judgment. It is saying that the important thing is not the resurrection but rather the destination of heaven or hell which supposedly occurs immediately after death. Implied in this idea is that the resurrection is no big deal. It’s just a matter of getting a body attached to the soul. In contrast to this idea, the apostle Paul affirmed that is there is no resurrection, we may as well eat, drink, and be merry, since there’s no after-life for us.

For the same reason, God forbids people to attempt communicating with the dead (as recorded in the Old Testament). I recall talking to a priest who advocated praying to Mary and the “saints”. He said, “Why not? They’re alive in heaven.” I asked him whether he talked to his dead parents as well. He said, “Certainly. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (A statement which Jesus used with the Sadducees to affirm the resurrection.)

So where do we stand? With Jesus and the apostles who taught the reality and the necessity of the resurrection? Or with those in the later development of the church who accepted Greek philosophical thought concerning the immortality of the soul?

#22

I’m with you on this, Paidion. Well put.

Though I’m not sure about the use of ‘blasphemy’ in this context, I won’t argue the point. :smiley:

#23

Paidion has given ONE sound rebuttal to the above proposal. There could be many more depending on what we believe the state of the dead to be (even if it differs from Paidions) and still more depending on whether we believe that God wishes our compassion and concern be devoted to those who are still partakers of this veil of tears (or not). Personally I see no logical nor scriptural reason to imagine that my prayers have any efficacy for those who have passed from this earthly realm and are fully in God’s hands.
We are taught to pray “Thy will be done IN EARTH as it IS in heaven”, we are not taught to pray “Thy will be done IN EARTH and may Thy will also be done IN HEAVEN”

#24

Whether or not people are conscious or not after death doesn’t take away from the fact that one day they will be judged. Nor does it take away from the possibilty that one day they may face the ones they harm, even if it is after resurrection. Why wouldn’t prayer be stored up for their account on that Day of Judgment. Supposed in you forgave them in you heart after they died? Would that at least be conducive to your reconciling to them in the hereafter? Why could’t you pray for their salvation when the resurrection happens?

#25

I can understand not praying for the dead. But I cannot understand how one can come to the conclusion that it is useless because the soul is not immortal. Once someone dies and their Spirit goes to God who created it, that person ceases to exist in our dimension. For that person, it will appear ‘instant’ because their lost thought was at death and their next thought is going to be when they are raised. On this side of the grave that could be billions of years, but from their perspective, it will be instant. Our prayers that exist in this dimension are prayed to God that exists both inside and outside this dimension. Therefore, there is no reason to believe that praying for the dead, both past, present and future is worthless. It is prayed to God who exists outside of our concept of time.

I think it will be absolutely incredible for everyone to raise up on the last day, turn to their neighbor with a disorientated look and say “What year is it?” Each of them referencing a different time period in history. No, not likely to happen - But it sure seems amusing in my mind. :laughing:

#26

Well said, Gabe.

#27

To some points, we continue on between death and the resurrection (we don’t go somewhere else, heaven isn’t somewhere else ‘out there’, it exists right alongside within the dimension of earth, and ours in it, the two spheres of creation overlap, intersect and move within each other, and are meant for each other, in the end heaven with be united to earth and both will be open to each other, as they are already in Jesus’ Resurrection body, as indicated in the vision in Revelation, heavenly Jerusalem comes down to earth and unites with it), we become united to and in the Messiah, what we do the body matters because it is part of ourselves, and is united to the Lord, the body for the Lord and will be raised with Him at His appearing, with full continuity between us now and then, how we live in and through and communion and and through the body matters. But we are united with Christ, we are members of His Body, this isn’t some fiction, it’s a reality, as He lives and is the ever-living One so do we, we already participate in His immortal Life and will completely at His appearing and completion of the resurrection of the dead that began when He broke free from the tomb that first Easter.

We are already become united to His life, participates in the divine nature being remade and renewed in His Image, the image and likeness of God and our true human nature, and as He lives we live. He is the Resurrection and the Life, and because of the Resurrection and Life we are united to and participate in, we are part of Him and He of us, though we die, yet we shall live raised to full life at the His appearing when death the last enemy is destroyed, and in between though we die yet we live in Him. To say we die, and are nothing till the Resurrection is either to deny we are united to Christ and His Body or He dies, both of which isn’t the case. He is raised in the Resurrection to the immortal Life of the age to come, we participate in that Life, so know we continue with and in Him, to be with Christ which is much better though not perfect, when we fall asleep in the Lord (a euphemism perhaps before, but a truth now), and as we dream in sleep, we remain aware of and in Christ.

As for what picture it pains of God, well do you pray for the welfare of people alive, why what picture does that paint of God, is it necessary? The answer is yes, because we care called to participate in the life of God, we are called to the image and likeness of God, humanity is how He manifests is rule and nature in the world, in being fully human we show creation what God is like and bring His love, wisdom and life into it, and to each other, by helping, loving and relating to each other we both bring the life of God them and they to us, and bring them into the relational Life of the Trinity (such as the judgement of the goats and sheep, to loving the needy we engage Christ Himself and participate in His Life and they through us). And praying for each other is part of participating in that Life, of the very calling of being human, and therefore a Christian, one in who the human call is being renewed. We are in fact commanded to pray for each other, it is an act of love, and not to pray for those who have died both therefore makes no sense and when thought about is act of tragic negligence of love from many Christians.

And in relation to praying that God’s will is done on earth as it is in heaven, it is quite correct that it is to see and pray to see His will done more and more an earth as it is in heaven, just as Christ’s ministry, is to see peace and healing brought to all people and the world more and more, but if that is seeing how His will is being brought into the earth, and of us acting and being in co-suffering love and self-sacrificial service and self-giving love for all, than that is how things must work in relation to the heavenly dimension. And we (as do all humans) exist in both, and of course those who have died also remain in both, in humans who are a meeting point and connection between heaven and earth, the seen and unseen dimensions of creation. We are not dualistic beings, the soul and body are aspects of the whole human being, we can focus on one aspect on another in our discussion (as in a very related way people talk of of mind and brain and focus their perspective at the one aspect or another in discussions but they are part of a whole and there is no separating it in reality), we are said to fall asleep but remain aware in Christ, and with Him, but our selves, including our bodies are united to Christ, so we don’t ‘go’ elsewhere (even less as heaven isn’t far away, it exists right here overlapping and existing within the reality of the earth (as it the seen aspect of the universe) and earth within it, overlapping, meeting and intersecting. So those who have died, just like us our a place were both realities meet, exist and are united. So the asking that the Kingdom is brought and praying for others fully applies to all humanity, both those alive and those asleep.

And who needs to pay anyone, I don’t pay any priest, vicar, pastor, minister, street preacher etc and so on, to prayer for me or anyone else, I ask people (such as in the prayer thread) so why would this be any different. I pray for my brother Sean, my nephew Ben who died after a long struggle at age 1, and Deva Key (the lady who who taken as a child to be sex traffic and died of HIV when she in her forties, in the video about the traffic of female children in India in the can you sign this petition thread), that they are relieved of of any sorrow and have grasped the hope the resurrection as so (using an Orthodox pray book), along with my grandparents

‘Lord, remember Your servants Ben, Sean and Deva Key, who have departed from this life in the hope of the resurrection (I add) or have come into that hope and had despair and sorrow lifted from them. Grant them forgiveness of sins, eternal rest among Your Saints, the gift of Your Kingdom and the enjoyment of unending life (sometimes I add ‘in the age to come’) with You. Amen.’

Within the Orothodox Church there are at the service of kneeling at Vespers on the evening of Pentacost, the are prayers ‘for those held fast in hell (this might Hades, perhaps Father Kimel could give more insight), granting us great hopes that there will be sent down from you to the departed repose and comfort from the pains that hold them’, which comes from the hope that amounts to a conviction that there nothing beyond the infinite love of God, and no limit to our hope in the power of His love. And no one ‘pays’ these people or ever does (nor does it happen in Roman Catholic circles, that is just uncharitable to assert it, as well as incorrect), as all, we pray for people because of love, because of compassion, because of relationality.

There is more that could be said as this is a much larger subject, but that’s where I’ll leave it. Suffice to say, I will not cease praying for and with my brother and nephew, as my brothers in Christ as well as my family.

#28

I have never been able to make sense of the idea of God existing outside of time. However, let’s suppose for a moment that it is true (whatever it means).

If we can meaningfully pray NOW for people who are dead and will not exist again until they are raised, le’t say 1000 years from now, that they will come to Christ after their resurrection, then can I meaningfully pray that my father, who died as an non-believer, will have come to Christ IN THE PAST, before he died? I mean, why not? After all, God is outside of time and sees all events of all time as one great eternal NOW (according to the “God-is-outside-of-time” theory).

#29

FWIW, Paidon, I have actually prayed “retroactively” on occasion in my life. It’s mainly been when someone’s asked me to pray for them about something specific, like for a doctor’s appointment, or a meeting they had with someone, or for a test they’re taking, and I forget, but haven’t heard the results yet. I reason, if God’s outside of time (which I don’t quite understand, either) then perhaps he could see my prayer from the future and somehow use it. If you think that’s absolutely ridiculous, I won’t blame you. I think its a bit silly, and a bit of a cop out for times I’ve forgotten to pray for something, but I also believe there’s a certain logic to it, IF God is outside of time.

#30

Makes sense, Caleb (sort of) if God is outside time. For if it is true that He is “outside of time”, He might be able to change the past.

I wonder what would happen if the mother of a horrible child wished that her child had never been born (a kind of prayer), and God answered!
Would the child just disappear into nothingness? And would everyone who had encountered the child forget that it had ever been existed?

#31

It wouldn’t really be changing the past. The future prayer would be implemented within the flow of time. (I can’t believe we’re discussing this, or that I admitted that I’ve prayed retroactively). :unamused:

#32

I pray retroactively all the time. Once long long ago I told my dad that I hoped the child I was carrying would be a girl, but that I supposed it was too late to pray for that. He told me he didn’t see why that would be an obstacle to God. I did have a little girl, though of course I don’t know whether that had anything to do with my prayer. :laughing: The important thing I got from that was that my dad thought it was okay and quite likely effective to pray for something that was already past.

Why? Time is a very strange phenomenon. I set for myself the goal to understand it maybe a year ago, and having read a ton of stuff about it (much of which I’m not educated enough to understand), I think I agree with Einstein when he said “Time is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.” Yes I realize this raises a ton of conundrums and possible paradoxes, and I couldn’t explain why this seems likely to me now – even if I rewrote the things I’ve read right here (it would be so very long, too!). Nevertheless, I think the physicists have a point. Time cannot be a real thing. It’s the way we “flat-world” folk perceive things, and the only way we CAN perceive things, but it’s not actually a thing at all for God, or probably for the people who’ve passed over to Him. (And Paidion, while I highly respect you, my brother, as a very knowledgeable and wise man, you and I just disagree on the present condition of the dead – it’s okay, and I don’t have any desire to argue about it – that’s just where I am.)

You can see if you study quantum physics (or at least study what the quantum physicists say) that time doesn’t mean much in the quantum world. It doesn’t mean much in cosmological matters either; it can be bent and twisted and stretched and compressed and theoretically even made symmetrical. The only reason we perceive time is because we see entropy everywhere. But does entropy really exist in “heaven?” Surely not! I can’t imagine a world in which time had no significance, but I think that such a world does in fact exist, and we may actually be living in it. We just can’t perceive and see that we are truly “sitting in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” For us time is very real; for God, maybe not so much. He’s not outside of time, I think. He’s just beyond it. He’s not prisoned by this illusion that prisons us. He’s not inside of time either. It simply doesn’t affect Him any more than the illusions of a detoxing alcoholic affect those who don’t perceive them as real.

Now based on all this, why do we pray at all? I’m not sure. Why would we pray for something already done (if “already done” is even a valid concept)? Nevertheless, Jesus did tell us to pray, and what’s more, He promised that our prayers would be answered when we pray “in His name” (and the meaning of doing THAT is a whole 'nother discussion). So clearly Jesus is of the opinion that prayer matters, and considering who He is, He’s probably right about that. Maybe we have more of a role in this whole thing than we think we have. Not that God will fail to do the loving thing if we don’t pray – of course not! But we will pray; we have prayed (in a sense, if I’m right), and it’s important that we do pray – because that’s our part (among other things). I can’t understand this yet, but I still pray anyhow, and when I want to pray for the dead, I just pray for the dead. If I’m wrong to do that, Father will forgive me. I’m not doing it out of rebellion or disobedience. I’m just doing it because it’s in my heart to do and I figure that the HS wouldn’t put it there if it wasn’t something that ought to be done.

#33

Yes, Cindy, Einstein’s theory of relativity led Einstein to reject time. But was Einstein’s correct in every aspect of his theory? A lot of observations seem to correspond to Einstein’s calculations. But for Einstein, the speed of light is a constant, and time is not. Some physicists today see it the other way around: time is a constant and the speed of light varies. It seems his relativity theory works just as well practically when understood in that way. Indeed, they say that actually Einstein’s theory is not about time at all, but about the behaviour of light.

#34

Blasphemy? That’s a fighting word, Paidion. Given the offensiveness of the charge, you will forgive me for taking off my boxing gloves.

Christians have been praying for the departed since at least the mid-second century, if not from the very beginning of the Church’s existence. In the first century, prayer for the departed would have been the most natural thing in the world. If there was an innovation it was this: “Pagans prayed to the dead, Christians prayed for the dead” (Salomon Reinach). What made the difference? Easter! We also know from the example of Judas Maccabaeus that Jews believed it appropriate to remember the departed in prayer and sacrifice. It’s hard to conceive of any 1st century Christian thinking that it was somehow “wrong.” Even if the practice is a second-century development, no one protested. No one considered it blasphemous. It would take 1500 years for Christians to invent a theology that would make such prayers illegitimate.

The rejoinder that we may not pray for the dead because the dead are dead is just, well, silly. What does that have to do with anything? Prayer for the dead does not presuppose any specific understanding of what life is like, or not like, after death; it does not require a specific understanding of whether a soul can exist independently of the body. All it requires is the confidence that God remembers in love each person by name. If he did not, the dead would truly be dead.

Christians pray for their departed loved ones first and foremost because they are loved ones. Love does not cease simply because death occurs. Anyone who has lost someone important in their lives knows this. We talk to our dead; we pray for our dead. We do so because we are human. This is first-order praxis. This is being human. The practice does not require a second-order theory to justify it. Atheists may tell the world that death is the final word, but everything changes when they lose a beloved child or spouse. They may not change their atheism and their intellectual understanding of life-after-death, but like the pagans of old, they will find themselves conversing with their loved ones, crying out to their loved ones, perhaps even invoking a nameless deity. They do not stop loving, even though their philosophy tells them that loving someone who no longer exists is nonsense. Life is bigger than our rationalistic constructions.

But Christians also pray for the faithful departed because we are joined to them in Christ in the communion of the Spirit. Death does not and cannot break this union and bond. Those who have been made persons by incorporation into the risen Christ do not suddenly blink out of existence at death. That would mean that we have ceased to be living objects of Christ’s love. Inconceivable! To even entertain this possibility is to deny the gospel. I reiterate: we do not need to hold a specific theory of the relationship between body and soul in order to believe that persons who have died with Christ and raised to new life in the Spirit do not disappear into nothingness–not because they have immortal souls but because God loves them!

I find it curious to hear objections to praying for the departed being voiced on this board. This is a universalist board. Many universalists believe that after death all who die in a less than perfect relationship with God will undergo purgation and purification. Surely prayers may be reasonably offered on their behalf; surely they should be offered on their behalf, just as it is our duty to pray for the sick and injured in this life. And so I resubmit my contention that all objections against praying for the departed in fact also apply to praying for the living.

I’ll be blunt: the refusal to pray for the departed is a both a denial of love and a denial of God.

#35

I am totally with Akimel on this. I am really surprised to see the opposition to it. It is one thing to say 'I don’t believe 'it, but quite another to say ‘it is blasphemy’ and then claim any counter point is silly or somehow defies logic. If there is a sickness to be had here, is that we think we know everything. Unless you have never been wrong about something, then we ought to to try and keep an open mind. I find it somewhat discouraging… The more I research beliefs of a different opinion of mine, the more I realize they have some merit. Perhaps not enough to change my mind, but I can at least say that said belief system isn’t wishful thinking, generally it has some evidence. Of course, most people just want to believe that people who believe differently have impure motives.

#36

Fr. Kimel,

The purga-u / ultra-u difference doesn’t line up precisely with a belief or non-belief of conscious pre-resurrection existence. Even if it did, it wouldn’t be at all unusual for ultra-u’s in that case to be denying conscious pre-res existence while still being Christian universalists (trinitarian or otherwise).

But as it is, purga-u’s (as such) could believe that the punitive discipline only starts for persons after resurrection; and ultra-u’s (as such) could believe that all spirits become conscious of the presence of God at death, but never in a punitive fashion, temporary cessation of bodily existence being a chief contribution to the healing and rescue of sinners from corrupting influence, with a bodily resurrection to come later. (Purga-u’s could believe that, too, of course, the difference being that some spirits continue willfully holding to their sins in the hades/sheol state even though for some or many all that is needed is to be freed from the influence of a corrupted bodily nature.)

I say that to be fair to both sides, even though I’m on the side of at least some conscious existence to some extent of spirits after the death of the body; and I do know there is some scriptural evidence appearing to point to significant levels of ‘soul sleep’, too, so those who don’t believe in conscious existence between death and resurrection aren’t pulling the idea completely against scriptural testimony. Nor do I (yet) see a clear philosophical argument either way, and I think about that line of approach a lot. :wink:

That being said, I don’t think it’s a clearly shut case on your side, Paidion.

I stand with Jesus and the apostles who taught that the penitent rebel on the cross would be with Jesus that day in paradise, and who taught that to be away from the body at death is to be with the Lord, and who taught that Jesus not only prayed for the dead ones but actually went into hades to evangelize them – a concept heavily connected with the general prevalence in the early Church of praying for the damned to repent, not incidentally.

That doesn’t mean they accepted the Greek philosophical thought concerning the intrinsic immortality of the soul, which is subtly but crucially different from the idea that the soul of even the wicked never ceases existing thanks to God. Nor does it mean they denied the resurrection (and transformation) of the body, or rejected the importance of that. It only means they thought there was at least some significant amount of continuing conscious existence after bodily death before the resurrection.

(I’m leaving aside as more disputable the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, but whatever it does or doesn’t actually represent about hades it does represent conscious existence in both the paradisal and punitive sides of hades. I’m also leaving aside the question of whether Peter says Christ descended after death and before resurrection, or whether his language could mean a descent after resurrection during the 40 Days – I’ve seen arguments either way, though on the grammatic analysis I’d go with the former.)

#37

For what it’s worth, I’m not intrinsically against the idea of our spirits tunneling forward, so to speak, into our resurrection bodies (whether into eonian life or into eonian judgment), so that the spirits don’t actually cease to exist, there’s direct continuity, but having shot forward along the timeline they’re out of our contact until then, or usually so anyway aside from miraculous contact.

That would mean the apparent occasional testimonies to continuing existence in hades before resurrection, are actually misunderstood contacts into the future of our Nature where the spirits went after death.

#38

There’s also the curious instance when Jesus was transfigured, while chatting with Moses and Elijah. Were they spirits/ghosts? Were they resurrected? (Though Jesus was the first one resurrected, unless there was some funky space/time thing going on.)

I’m curious about how Peter, James and John knew who Jesus was talking too, did Jesus call them by name? Were there introductions? “Pete, Mo. Mo, Pete”. Or maybe they were walking back down the mountain and Peter was like, “Jesus, who were you talking to?” and Jesus was like, “Oh, that was just Moses and Elijah”. :laughing:

#39

True, the Moses and Elijah incident tells us something, too. Though Elijah, like Enoch, didn’t actually die, and there were legends to the effect that Moses didn’t either but was taken up directly to heaven.

Could be the resurrected Moses and Elijah operating back in the past (before their resurrection) however. I’m not against that idea, since it’s one way to explain a lot of the weird anthropomorphisms attributed to YHWH in the OT which NT authors often apply to Jesus: it isn’t a pre-resurrection manifestation of YHWH, or YHWH in an angelic bodies (both theories of which I’m also okay with), but the resurrected Jesus projecting Himself back into history.

#40

Just a note, I really fully agree with Father Kimel here, and that love is the reason to pray, and to pray for all humanity, do act otherwise is a denial of love and so God and those who have died.

Well the Epistle of Jude makes a probably reference to the Assumption of Moses (or the Testament of Moses) in referring to the dispute between the archangel Michael and the satan over Moses body (of which a third of the document is now lost to us), with the view that he was assumed into heaven and possibly raised, though this should be thought of as distinct from resurrection, raised back to mortal life - where you die again - such as with Lazarus, Nain’s son, or those raised through the stories of Elijah/Elisha - is not resurrection which is being raised out and beyond death to immortal life, so Jesus is the first of the resurrection of the dead (which is conceived as a global, universe event, it has broken in two, beginning with Jesus and will be complete at His appearing). Of course dwelling within the heavenly dimension before God will one assumes prevent any deterioration or decay continuing in a body (so no aging) so there he would be remain alive before God (and Elijah if we accept that in being taken into heaven he remains alive and the narrative is relating what happened is a concrete reference to what happened to the prophet), then the Transfiguration was a moment of apocalypse, an unveiling of the heaven dimension to the earth dimension and revelation of the truth of events, of the divine and heavenly perspective on events (in this case just who Jesus and seeing the Kingdom of God and the coming new creation in effect).

Since in this view Elijah and Moses live in this realm alongside us, at that moment Peter, John and James saw them, on the other hand, assuming they both had died, both in their actual selves and lives, than there is no reason in in the unveiling of that reality God couldn’t make them alive in Christ, to be able to be apprehended by the Apostles, such as angels (which have no bodies) can make themselves apprehended in the earthly reality at times and in different ways. When the uncreated energy or action of God is made clear and present, when God makes Himself clearly known, in a moment in which He discloses and gives and sense and taste of the Kingdom (and assuming that how it is written is anything as to how it looked, such may not be actually describable in the testimony of Peter, John and James, and used the forms of apocalyptic language to relate what they had experienced instead) that we exist and know the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit in an way or relational understanding that goes beyond rational apprehension and the forms of language we know, so of course they would understand Moses and Elijah are being presented to them (even if they were just meant as symbols, the reality was something being communicated into their deepest beings and self, as they engaged and related to Being and Life Itself) without needing to ask.

Here was a unveiling of the Kingdom, to understand what they would see later, in the full coming and unveiling of the Kingdom of God, and as they meet the Resurrected Lord and understood what had come upon the world, upon humanity. In this we are on the edge of our own understanding, touching what some such as St Simeon the New as the Uncreated Light off God, to the Kingdom and a form of tasting both it’s beginning and it’s fulfillment all together. It is a passage to step back the questions and stand in awe revealing what they did experience, something to be entered into with reverence, we stand upon holy ground here.