, Robin Parry"]I was fairly recently in a church service in which the priest prayed for the soul of the deceased. The good evangelical next to me was somewhat surprised, as he could see no point in doing such a thing. Once someone has died their fate is fixed forever, he said—praying for them will make no difference.
Really?
I am currently reading Ilaria Ramelli’s magnificent book The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Leiden: Brill, 2013). It is the most thorough study of universalism in the early church ever undertaken (900 pages of it!).
Anyway, one of the things that struck me in the early part of the book was the recurring theme of the righteous praying for the damned with the result that the latter were rescued from hell.Worth reading rest of the post
Seems like I’d better pay a lot of money to some Priests in order for them to say prayers after I am dead. My ultimate salvation may well depend on the whims of some folk still alive. What picture of God does this portray?
Indulgences aside, if purgatorial hell is true, it make more sense to me that prayers be for unregenerated dead by the people from whom the offense is made. A Nazi SS officer responsible for the deaths of 1000s of Jews might find solace from prayers of forgiveness by the very people whom he done harm. For example, if the justice demands 1 year of punishment in hell for every person he tortured, maimed, and killed, then for everyone of those that forgives and intecedes for him, that’s another year knocked off his punishment. Eventually, this SS officer may find the grace of Christ through the thoughtful forgiveness of the very people he harmed.
Wow, I am amazed at how close our views are when it comes to speculation and theory, at least, from what I cal tell from your last 5-6 posts. This is exactly what I was thinking about 6 months ago… Although my posts was more on the lines of this:
If God says we must forgive others if we are to forgiven, then we can be sure that the Nazi’s are forgiven, unless all the Jews were also not forgiven… In other words, in order for anyone to be forgiven by God, they must forgive others. Whether or not it requires the ‘other’ to ask for it is a matter of debate. But, even so, if the Nazi’s at some point, terrible as they were, are not forgiven, it is fair to conclude the Jews they killed are also not forgiven. Why would God not forgive where man would/could? MacDonald has an awesome sermon on this - (Forgiveness, that is) - Anyway, I realize how uneasy it makes people feel to think that even Hitler could be forgiven. But, if we are honest with ourselves, we might have done the same thing in his shoes. Yes, he was evil. Yes, he was a monster. But isn’t that what Christ came and died for?
That’s exactly the way I see it. I’ve come to recognize that I could be a murderer in different circumstances. I could be part of ISIS, if I was born into a family that belongs to that group. That’s just the truth.
I’m not sure who the ‘we’ refers to.
My main point is that there are substantial difficulties believing that Fred’s ultimate reconciliation with God depends on something Jack may or may not do. This point has not been addressed. I concur with the thoughts on Hitler (cannot remember who broke the net-law by first citing him )
This is why I said that eventually the grace of Christ may be found. The forgiveness of others would only serve be a catalyst toward repentance. When that SS officer sees that he’s being forgiven, perhaps he’ll have a change of heart in the post-mortem. He would still need to turn to Christ for full salvation and complete forgiveness of sins, in so far as God is concerned.
I think this is all part of the reconciliation process. Maybe if we are in glorified bodies, our minds would be better primed for forgiveness, I don’t know. But it seems to me that there has been too much that has happened for sin to be just whisked away on a poof, at least in reconciling enemies together. I can only imagine some kind of confrontation taking place under the watchful guidance of the Holy Spirit to bring about the kind of *healing *that one would expect to take place here on earth, in our present state. Too many people have been hurt. Too many people have done the hurting. There has to be appropiate justice tempered with mercy.
I am with you regarding prayers for the dead Pilgrim. If salvation were a thing that money could buy then the rich would live and the poor would die! Nonsense! Donti,I do have concerns re your comment “sin whisked away on a poof”? What do you mean? Would you care to elaborate where the cross of Christ fits into this?
Ok, so I, and many Christians, pray for the salvation of others. Does that have an impact? I believe it does, and that’s why I pray. Does it twist God’s arm into having mercy on them? No. Does God take some persuading to save, and if we pray enough he’s finally convinced? Of course not.
I like to believe that my prayers can have an effect on softening a person’s heart. Just like I believe that spending time with a person and loving them can have a similar effect. I think its a tremendous privilege we have to participate in the salvation of others. Its not dependent upon us. My hope is that it may accelerate the process so the person doesn’t stay stuck in their sins longer than they might have otherwise.
Thanks Caleb. That’s well said - I’m just not sure it works that way but there are loads of things I’m not sure about and it’s good to read your take on it. God bless
I’m talking about the effects of sin more than anything else. Strictly on human terms. All sins have been dealt with by the Cross. But sin, forgiven or not, leaves consequences. For example, for someone who murders my brother may go to God and receive forgiveness under the Blood, but to reconcile with me may take time, if ever, depending on whether I choose to forgive, which may be based on how repentant or remorseful I perceive the perpetrator. I know that we are supposed to forgive, but I have feelings of loss, I can never get my brother back, I have to deal with strong emotions and it may take time for me to do so. While God can forgive the sinner, humans may need more time to come to terms. Those sins just cannot be whisked away in a poof, at least as far as human reconiliation is concerned. I don’t see how it could be different in the afterlife, except if somehow the Grace of God in our glorified bodies allows healing to progress quicker.
Thanks Donti, I wonder if Jesus was thinking in strictly human terms in his dialogs on forgivness. It’s a very knotty issue. I think for myself the cross sets an ideal in respect of forgiveness that I can’t match. This is the situation concerning much that Jesus said. For instance " unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees you will not even see the Kingdom of Heaven." As I draw closer to the reality of the cross and the judgment and forgivness implied so I get a better notion of what God’s forgivness of me means and thus perhaps find forgiving others less of an issue. Bottom line is that I can’t achieve any of this on my own. I think that is why Paul exclaimed at the conclusion of Romans chapter 7 : O wretched man that I am who will save me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Christ Jesus my Lord!" There was a popular expression a few years ago “Let go and let God.” It got a bit overdone in some respects and was a sort of christian flower power idea?!! Anyway, I kind of feel that this forgiveness thing is one area where that might be a helpful approach. Keep calm and carry on allowing God to fix the hurt in his way and his time. I have a conjecture about the judgment that meeting Jesus will intail confronting our actions and thier effects. That is what a time of Judgment does. For most this may be less than we fear but for the seriously wicked it will be painfull in the extreme. I would welcome the thoughts of others on my thoughts here. Chris
Francis Schaeffer drew a distinction between ‘Freedom now from the bonds of sin’ and ‘Freedom from the results of the bonds of sin’, and I think it is a useful distinction.
I also remember GMac stating something to the effect that sin forgiven is one thing, but until sin is replaced by goodness, the work of dealing with sin is not finished.
Those are just hints that help me to speculate a little - a very little - about the nature of the further/future work to be done in us. I sure don’t know the ‘how’ of it…
It portrays God as one who loves human beings so much that he invites us into the priestly work of reconciliation and salvation. Every objection against intercessory prayers for the departed also applies to intercessory prayers for the living.
C. S. Lewis: “Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to Him?”
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