The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Rom 3:23,24 good verses for EU

Theology Biblical Theology
#1

Sorry if this has been said before, but I just noticed something I hadn’t thought of before and wanted to run it past you all.
I had realised that it seemed to say that “all have sinned…. being justified freely by his grace”. This sounds pretty positive for EU. But I always thought it should have a “but are” in it to make more sense. i.e. “all have sinned…. but are being justified….”
I was just thinking about Rom 11:32 in relation to Rom 3:23,24

This seems to say that God’s actual purpose in giving people over to sin and disobedience is to have mercy on them. All the people in Rom 1-3 who are under God’s wrath in sin and disobedience that He has “given over” are in that situation for the purpose of receiving God’s mercy.
This line of thinking makes sense of why the “but” is not necessary in 3:24, because it was actually God’s purpose all along.
For example
They got up early, “being” eager to go for a walk - no “but” is necessary because the purpose of getting up early is to go for a walk.
They had a car accident “but are being” treated in hospital - “but are” or “and are” seem more necessary because the purpose of the car accident would not be to be treated in hospital.
Does that make sense to anyone? Am I on the right track? Thanks.

#2

If we consider only verses 23 and 24, it makes sense. But when we read the sentence to the end, we might come to a different conclusion.

…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Rom 3:23-26)

#3

Thanks Paidion.
Yes I think it is important to consider the rest of the sentence. I didn’t mean to sound like I thought faith in Jesus is unnecessary.
What I am thinking is that Rom 3:23,24 and Rom 11:32 both indicate that God has a purpose in allowing people to sin. That purpose is that they may come to Him in faith, that he may have mercy on them and justify them.
All have sinned, being justified by faith through his grace.

#4

Somehow, that just seems logically improbable. The sin that God supposedly gives them over to is what - war? Rape? Abuse? Murder? Lust?
For God to give people over to those things, just so He can have mercy, is just too much of a stretch for me to buy it.
In the Romans passage in ch 11, I believe the intent is to show that both Jews and Gentiles are ‘in the same boat’ so that all can receive the ‘same mercy’.

#5

Thanks Dave for your thoughts.
In the parable of the prodigal son, didn’t the father let his son go?
Couldn’t the son have been involved in all sorts of sin, like the sorts you mention - “war, rape, abuse, murder, lust”?
Didn’t the father let him go, with the hope and aim of him returning in repentance?
Could it be that for this son, this was the way that he would truly reach the end of himself and in humility come to experience and appreciate the grace, mercy, and forgiveness of his father?

#6

Craig,

Are you taking into account the context of Jew/Gentile status before God?

I think when Paul says “all” in vs 23, he means: “whether they are Jew or Gentile,” all are justified by grace (as opposed to being justified by works of the law.) He’s saying that the law was not given to the Jews to make them righteous, but, rather, to reveal sin.

Here’s the passage in ESV:
[Rom 3:9] What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
…
[Rom 3:19]Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

[Rom 3:20 ESV]
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

[Rom 3:21 ESV]
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it–

[Rom 3:22 ESV]
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

[Rom 3:23 ESV]
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

[Rom 3:24 ESV]
and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Sonia

#7

So, as I think about this, I’d say you’re on the right track. But I’d put it a little differently: The “purpose” would be the giving of the law to the Jews, not for righteousness sake, but for the sake of proving that law does not lead to righteousness – therefore, both those under the law and those without the law are all sinners and justified by grace as a gift.

Sonia

#8

Thanks Sonia.
I think you are raising some good points about the Jew/Gentile and law issue.

Just to clarify - do you understand Paul to be using the term “all” here in the sense of both Jews and Gentiles, and not necessarily every single person?
Do you regard this passage as having implications toward EU or just that Jews and Gentiles are in the “same boat” (to quote Dave’s expression) with regard to sin and justification?

We are studying Romans at our church at present in sermons and home groups. This week and next week are on Rom 3. I am wondering whether to wait until Ch 5 to raise the question of EU or whether this passage in Ch 3 is clear enough. If people here have doubts about its relevance to EU then I may be better to wait until Ch 5. :confused:

#9

This is the understanding of Rom 3:23,24 I had before I had my new thought for the OP (my original post above). I would like to check if others in the group are more positive toward my previous understanding:

All in this hospital (both old and young) had terminal cancer but are being healed from it.
All in this group (both men and women) have had an addiction to pornography but are being saved from it.
All in this town (both locals and foreigners) were sick from radiation after the bomb, but are being healed by this new treatment.
All in the world (both Jews and Gentiles) have sinned, but are being justified by faith through the grace of God.

I feel that this sort of understanding, even with the Jew/Gentile issue considered, does have implications toward EU.

What do you think?

#10

Craig,

Yes, that’s what I mean. I don’t think this passage is about universalism, except in the sense that everyone is universally in need of salvation and justification by faith. Paul gets there later on in Romans, so if it was me, I’d wait on bringing it up.

Sonia

#11

Thanks for your thoughts Sonia. I will delay bringing up the issue of EU until we get to Ch 5 where it is a bit clearer - as you suggest.

I realise that I could be wrong, but for myself, I still doubt that Paul would have expressed 3:23,24 like he does unless he had the hope of universal salvation in mind.
I agree that he is saying that all, both Jews and Gentiles alike, have sinned. But I don’t understand how he also did not have every single person in mind. I don’t know too many (apart from Jesus of course :slight_smile: ) that haven’t sinned.
v24 then says that these “all” are “being justified freely by His grace”. I suppose that it could mean that God is trying to achieve this, but he may not succeed for some reason? But it seems more likely to me that Paul is talking about all fallen sinful humans, both Jews and Gentiles, being justified by God’s grace as they each come to faith in Christ - and Paul sounds quite confident - otherwise why would he have used the word “being” as he does?

Thanks for the discussion everyone.

#12

I agree…there’s something more going on here than just including Jews and Gentiles. it’s one of the reasons i think Paul was convinced of Universal salvation, and wrote from that perspective.