The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Rom 6:23 Revisited

Hey Holy Fool P Zombie, I thought of you when I saw this and thought you might like it:
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15542068_1650665285225912_6979324909186538013_n.jpg?oh=5295d71ac7ebdee4a78519064adbe3cc&oe=58E18EF4

[size=150]Mat_5:19 Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.[/size] Those precepts were an extension of the precepts of the law.

Rom_2:16 in the day when God will be judging the hidden things of humanity, according to my evangel, through Jesus Christ."

Rom_16:25 Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with** my evangel**, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian,

2Ti_2:8 Remember Jesus Christ, Who has been roused from among the dead, is of the seed of David, according to** my evangel**,

Paul had a distinct ministry from that of the 12. His evangel/gospel is that believers of the nations have a celestial allotment. The evangel of the 12 is that Israel has an earthly allotment.

Paul’s evangel is we are saved by grace, works excluded.
James and the 12 preached a different gospel, that of grace and works.

The Jewish believers from James were infiltrating the Galatian believers of the nations and trying to get them to mix grace with works of law. But Paul said that is a no no and that if anyone brings to them a different gospel/evangel other than what he brought, let them be anathema. Don’t be like those Jews Eaglesway. Don’t be anathema. Read Galatians. There are many more differences between the gospel of the Circumcision and that of Paul. Paul said he was not taught his gospel by any man. It came directly from the risen Christ, not the Christ as He walked in His earthly ministry to Israel. Even Peter had a hard time understanding Paul’s gospel.

Excellent technology and Christianity cartoon, Eusebius. :laughing:

Hi qaz, hope your cat is doing well… The idea that* ‘Christians’ agree *is somewhat paradoxical, for there are many ideas of the grace that is told of in the bible. Saving grace, may well be any one (at that time) who heard the Messiah’s message and heeded the warning, back in Jesus’ time **and escaped the fiery stuff to come. (AD 70 destruction of the temple)

Grace could also be seen as a call to the gentiles, (nations) or in other words (as some would say) the ten northern tribes of Israel that God (put away) but wanted to bring back into the fold… grace was their time to com back, obviously through Paul, the apostle to the gentiles (nations), And there is a good argument that most of the time nations is used it means 'lost Israel, or ten northern tribes that God promised (through a covenant) He would bring back into the fold. Just floating this out as a possibility :slight_smile:

If the nations are the tribes of Israel, why did Paul say this?:

Gal_2:14 But when I perceived that they are not correct in their attitude toward the truth of the evangel, I said to Cephas in front of all, "If you, being inherently a Jew, are living as the nations, and not as the Jews, how are you compelling the nations to be judaizing?

If Peter was a Jew and the tribes of Israel were Jews, why would Peter try to judaize them when they were already judaized?

Also in Romans Paul said the nations have no law. The Jews had the law of Moses. Why will Israel rule over the nations if Israel is comprised of the nations? Who will rule over the nations outside of Israel during Christ’s reign if Israel is the nations? How will Jesus be King of kings and Lord of lords if the nations are Israel? Will each tribe of Israel have its own king and lord during that time? Just saying.

You will have to respond not using your secret translation, I do not understand evangel, though you may well know what it means. Your Bible translation, and thus your understanding of the gospel message and Paul’s epistle, may well be due to your translation. We will see.

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

The Idea is that Paul understood that these gentiles were of the fold of the ten northern tribe, or in other words, that which God wanted to bring back because of his promise / covenant.

You have to understand the covenant relationship between God and Israel to understand this. :confused:

MM, “evangel” simply means “gospel” or “good news.” It is from this word that “evangelistic” and “evangelical” are derived.

Thanks Paidion! :smiley:

Well, the nations did not have nor need the law, as the house of Judah was at that time the law keeper so to speak but the dispersion, (divorced Northern tribes of Israel) were originally under Assyrian rule, thus these dispersed Israelites were still ‘under’ the covenant relationship with Yahweh, but they did not have the necessity to keep the law as Judah did, thus they became ‘gentiles’ but through Paul, where brought back into the fold. It is an interesting study as to who the Corinthians, Ephesians, and other ‘Gentile’ Churches were. Most all could be traces to the dispersed Israelites. That is not to say there were not others there, but there is evidence, both historical and from Paul’s letters that he was speaking to kinsman.

eu(good, kind)aggelion(news, proclamation) gospel in greek euaggelion-εὐαγγέλιον

eu(good, kind)dokia (will, intention, desire, pleasure)

He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His (kind intention-eudokia NAS) which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, Eph 1,NAS

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself (same verse KJV)

making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him) (same verse Concordant)

And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, **(I bring you good news-euaggelizomai-εὐαγγελίζομαι)**of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. 12And this shall be a sign unto you; You shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. 13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, **good will(eudokias) **toward men.” Luke 2

Brethren, my heart’s desire(kind intention/good will-eudokia) and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. Romans 10:1

The good/kind news of God’s good/kind intention to all people

biblicalhebrew.com/nt/beatitudes.htm

A good article on the form of Hebrew poetry exemplified in the beatitudes, and its application to the understanding of them.

Hi maintenanceman, if the translation is a “secret translation” it is only because we don’t do a lot of advertising for it but merely word of mouth. It’s been out since the early 1900’s. It has been sold all over the world.
Paidion said it well concerning “evangel.” It is comprised of “eu” “good or well” and “a[n]gegelion” message. “Evangelist” is derived from this as one who brings a good or well message.

But they weren’t Jews. They were the nations. They lived outside of Israel. Some Israelites were coming into their “churches” in Galatia from James and trying to bring them under law. If they were Israelites, why would Paul, a Jew, tell them they shouldn’t be trying to live under law? That if they live under the law, they fall out of grace? No, they were the nations who have nothing to do with living under the law. Do you see the rationale in this?

You have to understand the difference between the nations under grace and the Jews under law to understand this. :wink:

I think this translation is the ‘secret’ one?

concordant.org/

:smiley:

If it were a secret translation, it wouldn’t be available for all to view on the internet. :smiley:

That’s right! It’s an interesting website as well.

Eusebius, The Law of God and the law of men say different things. Israel at the time was not following the Law of God ( that of the Spirit as exemplified in Jesus) but rather they were following man made laws and doctrines. If you look at history and the world around us at the present time, you will begin to understand some of the many things that Paul was saying about the “law”. For example, the sacrificing of animals, not eating certain foods, the required celebrations and reading of the Torah, etc. etc. …Whatever the other rituals and doctrines one had to believe in and follow in order to be right or righteous before God, was all unnecessary. These things still go on at the present time. We need only to follow the Spirit of God in our hearts, loving Him with all the heart and mind, and doing unto our neighbor the things we would have done to us.

LLC, the law given to Moses wasn’t man-made. And Israel covenanted with God to do ALL the law or else receive the curses of the law.
The nations were never given the law of Moses and never covenanted with God to do those laws.

Paul was addressing the nations concerning the law not being able to make anyone righteous. But he said the law is still righteous and good.

Well Eusebius, I’m not really up to do a bible study on a forum, but if you want we can have at it. You said to LLC,

So lets look at a few things…
To save time, I have plugged in some info from outside sources that I tend to think we may do well to at least consider.

Jew, as used in the NT means the House of Judah, which is different from the Northern tribes the ‘House of Israel.’

When Solomon died in 925 or 926 B.C., the northerners refused to recognize his successor Rehoboam. Subsequently, the north broke away and was ruled by the House of Omri. The northern kingdom of Israel flourished until it was completely destroyed, and its ten tribes sent into permanent exile by the Assyrians between 740 and 721 B.C.

So* the house of Israel *was split into two kingdoms. The 10 northern tribes were known as the House of Israel. And the 2 southern tribes were known as the Southern kingdom or Judah:
They were both immoral and ungodly, but Yahweh only divorced Israel (ten Northern Tribes). He could not divorce Judah, because it was through Judah that Messiah would come:

So the Ten northern tribes were assimilated into the nations. Please do a study of the term ‘gentile’ ‘nations’ and goy.
The idea that the nations (or at least some of them) were never given the law is quite honestly at least a bit of a farce, or at least a mistake, which I will accept. The ten northern tribes were being brought into different cultures, and were originally, cognitive of the law but as time passed, were forced to adapt to the society, that they were thrust into…

The prophecies in Ezekiel 34 and 36 explain that God would “regather” the scattered houses of Israel back out of all the nations of the world under one shepherd, which was Christ. So yes, God did covenant with them,
We’ll start there. :smiley:

Actually it was a bit of both. The bulk of first responders to the gospel beyond Palestine were in fact of Hebraic stock i.e., Jews of the Diaspora. For example:

This was the seed-bed that helps explain in part the early uptake of the gospel by those “outside of Israel”. A careful reading of the epistles actually reveals such to be laced with Israel’s story… something that would have made little sense to raw gentiles. Here is a classic example where Paul writing to the Corinthians (gentiles) in language unapologetically Jewish in flavour with the expectation that they were fully au fait. Remember, Paul is writing this to “gentile” believers…

So… I’m NOT saying ALL NT references to “gentiles” is actually a reference to “Israelites” no, BUT I am suggesting a goodly portion thereof WERE in fact of ancient Israelite extraction among whom they had previously been “scattered” and were now being “regathered” — hence “Israel’s” GOSPEL = Your God Reigns

This is what the early Church beyond Palestine was responding to. Understand Paul and you see he encountered twin issues in the burgeoning church head-on… one was Jewish exclusivism (Acts 15:1, 5, 24; Gal 2:4 et al), and its counterpart Gentile separatism (Rom 11:17-22 et al). On the one hand certain Jews in the church were teaching law observance (circumcision) for salvation, while on the other certain gentiles were saying by their inclusion God was done with Israel, i.e., Israel was forsaken; both were wrong.