The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Rom 6:23 Revisited

From what I understand, God already rules the heavens and the earth. The kingdom is in the world, but it is not of the world. To me, this means even though God is an invisible Spirit, He was, is and always will be the King. Christ is already subject to the Father and so is everyone else. We are either living in His Spirit or we are not, and if not, our lives will fall apart.

Excellent answer, qaz.

Sorry but I just had to do that. I hope you can take a joke. Forgive me if you can’t.

As to Christ being subject to the One Who is subjecting all to him (Christ), Paul saw far into the future in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. He saw that Christ won’t be subject until Christ quits reigning, all sovereignty, authority and power is done away, death is abolished for all mankind and then all are subjected to Christ. God, in this prophecy, does not see Christ as a singularity (a single individual) but rather as a corporate composed of all mankind. When it is finally said that “all are headed up in Christ” then Christ will be subject to God as a corporate unity of all mankind. Then God will be All in all.

But God did purposely create Adam of flesh and made him soulish knowing full well in advance:

because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God. (Rom 8:7-8)

And God saw that it was good that He had done so. But how is this good that God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and planted it right in the middle of the garden so Adam and Eve would see it every day? And why did God lay down the law in the garden “Thou shalt not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” especially when God created them flesh and knew they would not be subject to that law? And why did God put the serpent in the garden to delude Eve? You see, the comic is incorrect. It is a straw man. It shows hell as the result of God setting a trap. But it was not hell but rather death. And God didn’t do it for the only reason being death to Adam and Eve. Rather it was to bring His Son as the Saviour of mankind into the picture. Mankind gets the knowledge of evil through dying but will get a knowledge of good through life through His Son. God is just so very wise beyond comprehension!

Perhaps you might enjoy this cartoon, which I shared today on another thread here :exclamation: :laughing:

Yea, that’s a good one!

The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

The sermon on the mount was not about the future, as He said, the “kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

Jesus distinctly said, it does not come with observation. It is within, spiritual.

The kingdom of God is coming within all those for whom Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior- “Christ in you the hope of glory”, and imo the sermon on the mount has nothing to do with any earthly nation of kingdom present or future- it is for any who hear, a guide into transformation- not a circumscision or a catechism.

I do not think in terms of “going to heaven”

I think interms of heaven manifesting on earth, through people yielded to His spirit. He is coming to the earth, the earth is not going to Him. There will be a new heavens and a new earth- but that is not about the rock of earth, it is about the spiritual pillars, the spiritual principles, spiritual transformation- His kingdom come, His will be done, in people on earth- heaven and earth merged. The veil removed.

The sermon on the mount is about what that ought to look like in anyone who has it. Character. The divine nature. Any manifestation of the kingdom of God that is visible in the world begins with the invisible open portal of a heart yielded to Jesus.

“17 This is not a definition of the kingdom of God, but a statement of its bearing on this subject. The distinctive truth for the present economy was not yet known, and the saints are included in the kingdom of God in its widest aspect as denoting the sphere of God’s rule.” (Concordant Commentary).

Too overly simplistic. John the Baptist said it was near to come. Jesus said it was near to come. They said it was at hand, not that it was present in physical form. There is an inner expression of God’s kingdom and an outward, physical expression. One should never take the inward and say therefore there is no outward, visible, concrete kingdom to come. The reason it never came and grace went to the nations is because Israel, as a nation, rejected Christ. It was a secret given to Paul. You can read about it in his epistles if you care to.

“20 That the coming of the kingdom of God will be a visible, observable event the Scriptures amply testify. It will come like a lightning flash (24), accompanied by signs and portents in heaven as well as on earth. But it will not be a small, local occurrence, known only to those who are watching closely. This is the force of the word usually rendered “observation”. It denotes scrutiny, a careful inspection lest something elude observation. Thus they “watched” the gates of Damascus day and night in order to apprehend Saul of Tarsus. This suggests quite the opposite thought, that it comes with such apparent and public “observation” that careful scrutiny is useless.” (Concordant Commentary).

Christ is also going to set up a visible kingdom in Israel which will last 1000 years. He will rule from Jerusalem along with his 12 apostles who themselves will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. And they will rule over the nations during that time.

I know the Jews never thought in terms of going to heaven but believers of the nations will go out among the celestial realms in the future.

When Christ returns the next time He will not set foot on earth. Believers of the nations will meet Him in the air and be transported to the celestials to the kingdom of the Son of His love.

I hope you have fun yanking your eye out of cutting off your hand. Go for it. If you think believers of the nations should to that for God, wow!

http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/Paidion9/More%20Cartoons/Like_zpsf9decd86.jpg Eaglesway… that certainly has a more realistic resonance to it :exclamation:

Concerning the Sermon on the mount, and those who believe we should be under the demands maintained therein,
who of you have not been angry with his brother? Too bad. You are liable to the judging.

or had lust in your heart? or called someone a fool? or stupid? Too bad. You are liable to be cast into Gehenna.

or has your salt lost its saltiness? You will be cast out and trampled under foot of man.

or is your righteousness superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisse? No? Too bad. You won’t be in the kingdom.

Have you ever dismissed your wife for anything other than adultery? Oh, too bad. You are in hot water.

Christ began His talk to His disciples on the sermon on the mount that it is about the law. And Christ made the law even harder than Moses did.

I’m glad we, of the nations, are not under law but under grace. If Christians had a really good understanding of Paul’s epistle to the Galatians, they would see just how untenable the sermon on the mount is for them.

The sermon on the mount was not about the law, it was about charcter. To be poor in spirit is the pathway to transformation. “The goal of our faith is love from a pure heart.” It was not to set a more stringent law. Jesus compared the law, as a lesser guide, to walking in love, humility, meekness, etc… in order to clarify what he came to bring to man.

If we walk in love there is no need to fear judgment, so don’t just “not murder” you brother- love your enemies. Don’t just “not speak down” to those for whom no respect is due- conduct your self with humity and honor towards them.

The sermon on the mount was not the end of His teaching, it was the beginning. It was not some “separate segment for a special dispensation” and ought to be read in context with everything He taught about our becoming “partakers of the divine nature”. Clearly the apostles regarded so, and spoke the same things in the epistles.

"A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.”…

Dallas Willard’s book The Divine Conspiracy has opened my eyes to the perennial value of the Sermon on the Mount. It is an actual eye-opener.
dwillard.org/books/divconsp.asp

In the post-biblical age/s it is totally acceptable and good to find personal and spiritual applicability beyond any specific text, and thus context, of the truths/principles of Scripture in realising such for oneself; in that this actualises greater blessing in life in an experiential and practical way where we appropriate or imbibe these divine and timeless realities, values and principles, and so find afresh scriptures’ transforming relevance for personal daily living etc.

So it is we can look to “the Word” and see…

This however is way different than interpreting texts as directly pertinent to our specific situations OR NOT in terms of our lived experience/s and so determining what given texts supposedly mean, OR NOT, considering such things were written with SPECIFIC others and their very real situations in view. And this, as I understand it, is where certain positions above somewhat muddied the waters.

We can argue, as to whom the audience is - for the sermon on the mount. Perhaps the Jews of Jesus days? Or perhaps a wider audience, to whomever is hearing or reading it? Or maybe some group in-between?

But as a pragmatist, Martin Luther King and Mahatma Ghandi, took the message to heart. And they inspired a movement of peace or peaceful resistance. :smiley:

Tonight I’m watching the old MacGyver series. Not the CBS contemporary rip off, but the original one. Macgyver is a pragmatic person, who used whatever was available - to construct a solution.

And when Christ spoke, were there only Jews in the audience? Weren’t there also gentles? And if Christ is just speaking to the Jews, wouldn’t the gentiles become totally confused? I certainly would :exclamation:

Randy said:

You may be correct but the fact that Jesus’ teaching were so laced with scripture (Law, prophets and psalms) does indicate that the thrust of his message was at least intended for a certain group of people, those who would know what the references to the spoken scriptures meant. But that is kind of the point, if we take what Christ was saying without allowing for the use of scripture and it’s significance, then we at some point just take the nuggets that we think ‘pertain to us where ever we are in history’. Modern evangelicals will get around this by saying the law was done away with.

Yes there could have been others there, and if they did not know the scriptures Jesus was talking about, they too may have walked away with some real great nuggets of wisdom… But would not have been the intended target.

Actually, I just came across a discussion at Biblical Hermeneutics entitled:

Who is the intended audience of Matthew 5-7?

Let me share one interesting answer:

Now let me share a second answer - from the same thread:

And from the first answer, I found this sentence very interesting:

So the crowds could consist of disciples, potential disciples, hang around folks, gentiles, etc. But they

. In other words, something resonated with them.

A hang around is a term normally given to folks, who hang around with the 1% motorcycle gangs. They are not official members, but they like the group and hang around. And I read that and heard it also - from reliable sources. And hang around is used outside the motorcycle gangs - in Colloquial speech. So it could apply to folks, at the time of Christ. :smiley:

Let’s look at another commentary at:

The Sermon on the Mount

Here is the author’s background:

Let’s look at this paragraph, to address the disciple audience:

But we also find this paragraph interesting:

So, the last sentence says this:

Finally, some insight from Calvinist theologian Matt Slick:

What is the Sermon on the Mount?

I find this sentence interesting:

Folks might also gain some insight, from the Calvinist Got Questions answer at:

Why did God give us four Gospels?

Mat 5:1 Now, perceiving the throngs, He ascended into the mountain. And, at His being seated, His disciples came to Him.
The Beatitudes
Mat 5:2 And opening His mouth, He taught them [disciples] saying,

He taught the laws of His kingdom to the disciples which they will enforce when Christ sets up His kingdom in Israel and the 12 disciples/apostles will judge the 12 tribes of Israel based on those laws.

The throngs were astonished at His teaching to the 12 disciples. But let’s just assume for the sake of argument that what Jesus said is to the disciples and the throngs. These laws He laid down are an extension of the laws given to Moses. These laws were never meant for the nations to have to do for they never covenanted with God to do them. Only Israel covenanted with God to do the law. Paul, a Jew, said that Christ became a Servant of the Circumcision. Rom 15:8 For I am saying that Christ has become the Servant of the Circumcision, for the sake of the truth of God, to confirm the patriarchal promises."

Good observations maintenanceman. :slight_smile:

The idea of scripture as limited to the audience it was originally spoken to is a strange one to me. The word of God is the sword of the Spirit, living and active and sharper than any two edegd sword. Jesus came to the Jews. He came to set them free from the law, and to set them free from themselves. His method for doing that is no different than it is for any Gentile. The cross speaks to all because it is the act that validated all the words that Jesus taught. His teachings are for all who would be His disciples, and the sermon on the mount is about discipleship. Taking His yoke upon us, finding rest for our souls, receiving a meek and lowly heart- from Him.

Jesus came to Nazareth of the Jews, so I agree He was speaking predominantly to Jews, but the truth He was delivering to them was for all- universal light from the source of all creation, speaking through all time until this time and beyond. It was their privilege to receive the gospel first, and He chose His disciples from among them, and sent them with His words into the whole world.

"And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. 12And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. 13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men."

The shepherds were most likely Jews too, but the message was “I bring you great news for all people”.

There is only one gospel, and it sets all men free from the law. Jesus said, “If you continue in my word you will be my disciples indeed, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Israel was a Lampstand to the world. The law was a lesser light, a first step in “an administration suitable to the fulness of times”. Jesus quoted the law and the prophets to illuminate the law and the prophets. The prophets were given to penetrate the letter of the law and keep bringing Israel back to the heart of the law- revelation of the divine nature. Jesus fulfilled the prophets, and with the advent of Jesus Christ light is running backwards through out the scriptures and illuminating it all- so, every Gentile believer profits from understanding all the word and all of its context- so Paul, who was generally speaking to mixed congregations still quotes from the prophets and speaks about law and grace, love and the divine nature, with a goal of transformation for Jew, Gentile,barbarian, scythian,. slave, free.

Paul did not preach His own gospel. It was Jesus’ gospel. The gospel of God that all the disciples received from Jesus and proclaimed.

I agree with you, Eaglesway. That’s why I devoted time, to a fuller answer, just previously - at [Rom 6:23 Revisited)