I’ve just been emailing a friend and have sent him a few ‘UR’ verses to ponder. I saw Romans 8:21 and was going to send that as well, but then I noticed verse 19 and was struck by ‘the revealing of the sons of God’. My first intial reaction to this, is that creation doesn’t know who these ‘sons of God are’ and so at some future point they will be revealed? This would suggest that not ALL humans will become ‘sons of God’ and so it seems to throw a spanner in the works of UR- unless the ‘sons of God’ are a special sub class (maybe not everyone is classed as the body of Christ??) Anyway, I wondered what you guys know about this. Does the word for ‘reveal’ convey more the idea of a transformation rather than an ‘unveiling’? That would support UR if it was the case. I look forward to your help in this matter. 
Hi Catherine,
If Romans 8 was the only fragment of Paul’s letters that survived to the present day it would be more than enough to demonstrate that the writer was truly inspired as to the essential meaning of the Gospel of Jesus the Healer. The concluding verses especially: What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is it that condemns? Christ Jesus is the one who died—and more than that, he was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who also is interceding for us. 35 Who can separate us from the love of Christ? Can tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “For your sake we face death all day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are winning a most glorious victory through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. are one of the most expansive descriptions of the “outer limits” (as far as we can see and imagine) of God’s grace made real in the death and resurrection of Jesus and provides context and definition to what Paul is saying about the “revealing of the sons of God.”
The “us” is not just believers but all of creation. Those in Christ (xrestus:the Healer) are not just the few elect but all things that were created in and through him. The redemption of our bodies is the new birth/creation (resurrection) directly from God so that all of creation will be the child of God. The apparent dualism of spirit vs flesh will dissolve away as the full on living presence of YHWH and the Lamb fills the creation and creates a new hybrid hyper-physical reality of the merging of the space of God and the space of this present creation into something radically new beyond what we think is possible: where the old death-dealing possibilities of this present creation become impossible and the impossible life-transforming realities of resurrected creation makes the impossible possible.
In that other greater passage of Paul in I Cor. 15 that expansive new reality is summed up as when God is all in all or as I like to put it: when everything that God is is freely and unreservedly given to all that there is–even the long lost dead and extinct. God no longer sees the creation as we do from the beginning (Genesis) as a progression/evolution from the past to the future. He sees it from from the new creation that is in Jesus the Healer that is coming towards us. The thing we hope for is what God already perceives the creation as being in the risen crucified One.
Yet because we are still are on this side of the event horizon of the parousia we still perceive and experience reality as a linear progression from the past assuming that everything results from a long chain of cause and effect. That is why there is this ongoing muddle about what is the love of God and gospel really about. We start from Genesis and through the long ensuing history of sin, death and confusion and try to reconcile every apparent conditional or limiting scripture verse that seems to say that, “no God cannot not really be as all inclusive, generous, kind and fair as he revealed himself to be in Jesus the Healer.” Therefore there is, “the danger that we may be too exuberant and presumptuous in our all inclusive hope in the gospel.”
The Spirit of Life is not found in exhaustive exegesis and debate of the scripture; the Jews have done this sort of thing par excellence but where is the gospel in all of that? Christians have done likewise and what sort of gospel do they offer to the world?
The Spirit of Life is in the death and resurrection of the Crucified One. That singular and unique event is what defines who God is and what love is. The living Word of God dies the cursed death of the godless and by doing so brings the Life of the Creator to all things, especially to all the dead. So all scripture and all experience and all knowledge must rise to the level of the love of God made real in the death and resurrection of Jesus the Healer. If those things exclude or separate anyone or anything in the creation from that love and if they seem to undermine or diminish in the slightest way what Jesus the Healer accomplished for everyone and everything then that thing needs to be swept into the dustbin of the former things that have no more relevance.
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All I have to say to you, DaveF, is AMEN!
Thank you for your very interesting and thought provoking reply Dave. Unfortunately as much as I’d like to believe what you say is truth, I’m not yet convinced and hence why I ask questions about things that seem to refute UR. You say the ‘us’ is all creation and everyone and thing is ‘in Christ’ but when I read the Bible I don’t get that impression. I get the impression that the ‘all’ that is often mentioned all through the Bible, is only what is left over once ‘all things are made new’. ‘Satans’ will no longer be part of the new creation and many other things that used to be part of this creation will be gone and many verses in the Bible give the impression that people will be gone forever : like dust blown away on the wind. If I take the above verse I cited in Romans 8, as I read it, I don’t understand why Paul would mention the revealing of the sons of God, if everyone is already destined to be a son of God. There would be no surprise surely, if everyone is evenutually (in their own order) going to be transformed into a son of God? But the verse seems to make much sense if I understand it from the non UR position of limited atonement: only some people are going to be saved by the atonement and become adopted as children of God. I much prefer what you are saying or rather what UR claims, and thus I’m a hopeful universalist, but many verses seem to undermine the UR position and this seems to be one. Do you have any thoughts on this verse? 
Hi Catherine
I have three quick thoughts on your very legitimate question on Romans 8: 18-23 specifically. Just to remind us, the verses (NIV) are:
**1:**Paul here is talking to believers, saying that one day glory will be revealed in them. But at some point they weren’t believers – as indeed weren’t you or I. So if the glory will one day be revealed in *those *believers, does it not follow that as long as *all *people one day come to be believers, then the glory will be revealed in them also? This is perfectly compatible with EU theology, as long as you allow post mortem salvation. Which I happily do.
**Or how about 2:**Could Paul not, perhaps, be talking about the children of God being revealed in the sense that *all *sinners are actually (and indeed always were) God’s children, but only through faith in Christ are they ultimately ‘revealed’ as such: Again, this is perfectly compatible with EU theology.
**Or how about 3:**The creation – which includes all of us – was subjected to frustration, “not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it”. This seems to me a plain statement that the current mess the world – along with all of us – is in is in fact the direct result of God’s will. And if it is God’s will to subject all creation to frustration, pain etc, then it is also His will to rescue creation from that frustration and pain. Which He does through Jesus. It’s the ‘no plan B’ scenario I tried to expound in my TOE on BobBobBob’s evolution thread.
Not saying any of these three bits of amateur hermeneutics are necessarily, or even probably, correct. But perhaps enough to show that the Romans verses need not be an insurmountable barrier to EU?
Peace and love
Johnny
reading those three verses, it really seems to me that he is talking about the firstfruits of the saints…not the totality.
it sounds to me like he is saying all creation is waiting eagerly for the revelation of God’s children, which is such a big event that it will draw the rest of creation in.
seems less a barrier and more of a potential proof text, IMO.
Hi Catherine,
Dave F and Johnny offers some great thoughts. I’d just expand a little on 1Cor 15, which Dave touched on.
Not all EU believers agree on everything, particularly when it comes to the meaning of election, or the calling out of one part of humanity as a sort of second first fruits, with Christ Himself being the true first fruits of the reconciled creation. But I am one of those who believes that there is an order to the fulfillment of the restitution of all things.
When you read those verses in 1Cor 15, Paul again uses the contrast/typology of all dying in Adam and rising in Christ. But each in his own order. First Jesus, then those who are His at His coming, and then the end, when all enemies must be put under His feet before He turns it all over to the Father so God may be “all in all.”
Now, stick with me for a moment, because I promise I’ll get back to Romans 8!
In Ephesians 1, Paul tells us about election and how believers have been blessed by being chosen of God. It’s key, I think, to note that Paul is not talking to the Ephesians about salvation only, but about the very purposes and ultimate will of the Father. And what is that purpose? It is “the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.”
So God is not simply gathering the elect. Rather, He is **using **the elect in the carrying out of His greater purpose… gathering together . In other words, election is a means in the pursuit of God’s plan, it is not its end. The end is the gathering together of all things.
For me, this is the context of Romans 8. The creation… the animal kingdom, even the very planet itself, and certainly suffering humanity… might not know exactly what they’re hungering for. But they know that this present realm is flawed and cruel and unsustainable. But Paul knows what they are hungering for, and he tells us so quite beautifully and powerfully.
Perhaps you’ll remember that I once told you that I believe the residents of the New Jerusalem… armed with the leaves of the tree of life which are for healing… would venture into the outer darkness and bring the lost home through the open gates to meet their Lord and Savior. I said that maybe this was what Jesus had in mind when He promised that believers would perform miracles even greater than His. Of course, I also said that I couldn’t prove that to you, but that I believe it nevertheless.
Well, Romans 8 is one of the main reasons I do believe it. Indeed, I think it’s a picture of it. Lol… of course, I can’t prove that either.
Anyway, lots of love to you.
Hey Johnny, it’s good to get your input into this. I like all three points you make. I’ve been reading and re-reading these verses and something amazing has just struck me: ‘if’ Paul is including all humans when he refers to ‘creation’, then this now all makes sense from a UR perspective. So everything that is presently suffering frustration (that must include the wicked) will one day attain the same glory as the ones who attain sonship first. These sons of God who are freed from the frustation (ie death) are the first fruits of creation to be freed. Paul is saying that the creation will receive the same freedom and glory as these ‘sons’. Wow, that’s amazing if true. I wasn’t reading ‘creation’ to include humans or rather humans who had rejected God, as my mind set is influenced strongly by non UR doctrines.
Suffice to say, Paul seems to be saying that all creation ie everyone will be liberated from the frustration that was forced upon them and enter the same freedom and glory as those who ‘saw the light’ way before them. 
Yes, I’d just figured this out as I kept reading the verses hence my reply above. It seems so obvious now, and yet due to my biased reading, I couldn’t see it before. 
Hi Andy, your reply is brilliant too. I’d posted my reply above before I’d seen yours and Corpselight’s and both of your replies confirm what I’d concluded: Paul isn’t necessarily limiting the ‘freedom and glory’ to a special small group of humans i.e ‘sons’ (the elect), but ALL creation will attain this freedom and glory. The fact Paul makes a lot of this ‘revealing of the sons of God’ suggests as you state, that it is through these ‘first’ sons that the rest of creation will be freed (during the 1000 years for instance) and come into the same freedom and glory as them. Christ and His body (the sons) are making all things new maybe… And so these verses strongly confirm UR…wow…
lots of love to you guys too.
Also, Catherine, if I understood you correctly, it seems as if you were reading the text to say that the creation was waiting to see which people would be revealed as sons of God. I think a different, perfectly natural way of reading it is that the creation is simply waiting for the Sons of God to be revealed. So it’s not a matter of who, its a matter of when, and a matter of eager anticipation. The greek work, apokalupsis, from what I understand, simply means to unveil. 1 Cor 1:7, along with 1 Pet 1:7, 1:13 and 1 Peter 4:13, seem to refer to when Jesus will be revealed at the 2nd coming in all his glory. And at that time so will we (be revealed in all our glory) See 1 John 3:2. Its when the new creation is finally kick-started.
I think, by the way, we get a hint of his (and our future) glory at the Transfiguration. Transfiguration/transform in greek is something like metamorpheo , or metamorphasis. See also 2 Cor 3:18 “And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit” (and read through to 5:5, which offers a lot of parallels to Romans 8). Also, a related concept is in Phil 3:21, where Christ “will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body”.
Yes Caleb, I was reading it as ‘who’ these sons of God were going to be. My default position had always been that only some people will be adopted as sons and so it’s no wonder I’d read it like that. Verses like the one where Jesus tells some people who thought they were the ‘elect’ to get away from Him, seemed to support that understanding. (I wish Jesus just once mentioned that ones such as them weren’t destined to remain ‘away from Him’ )
I think you’re right about the transfiguration being a hint of this ‘revealing’. Great reply Caleb and thank you for the many verses that help in understanding this topic.
It is indeed worthy of a “wow” when you see something in the scriptures that you haven’t noticed before.
When I came to believe that God is saving everyone in His risen Son, it really challenged me to read my Bible more carefully. And that’s especially true with Paul, a man who I have absolutely no doubt clearly and repeatedly taught universal reconciliation in Jesus Christ. In fact, for the first time, the entire letter to the Romans made actual, concrete sense. I had always assumed Paul’s glorying in God’s totally amazing victory at the end of the 11th chapter had to do with God “winning” on some sort of “technicality.” That is (in effect) tradition’s interpretation, but it always seemed rather contrived and unsatisfactory to me. In the context of the restitution of all things, however, God is not winning by technical knock-out. He simply wins, because, well, because He’s God and winning back His creation… all of it… is His expressed will and intention. And THAT is what had Paul so legitimately and understandably excited.
Our heavenly Father is so worthy of our love and devotion, Catherine, because His love for US in His Son is relentless and has our very best interests at His heart, even in judgment and trial. I think that’s why the scriptures say that we love God because he first loved US. And He really does love us… and everyone else, too. He really, really does!
All the best,
Andy
great minds think alike? 
i can understand that…i mean how many of us read the same Bible for years before God’s total HAPPY victory leapt from the pages? it is a paradigm shift of immense proportion.
great points being made on this thread, great read! thanks everyone
Catherine,
I think being a hopeful universalist is all any of us can be this side of the parousia. I also think the Bible is a mixed bag when it comes to illuminating the gospel. At the end of the day deciphering the intent of the biblical witness is a complicated and controversial undertaking that will provide no unequivocally clear and simple revelation that is compellingly obvious to the billions of humans on this planet. Only a handful of individuals two thousand years ago actually saw and touched the risen Jesus. And even then those who experienced that first hand encounter did not fully comprehend the significance of it all. This is still the state of things in the 21st century. Hundreds of millions of copies of the Bible in print and 2 billion people identified as Christian and yet what passes for the gospel meant for the wider world is anemic at best and depressing at worst.
Christians who have an open, expansive hope for the future of the creation are a tiny minority. All the religions, including the Christian, as well as secular scientific reductionism offer at best the hope for something better for the relative few who are persistent enough or fortunate enough to be one of the fit ones who are worthy: survival of the fittest or salvation of the fittest. But what I see in the essential core of the gospel of Jesus the Healer is the death of a failed visionary, who referred to himself as the son of man instead of son of God, condemned by both the religious and political powers, who died not as a martyr with the beatific vision to comfort him but in total dereliction and despair. He died abandoned by his followers and felt the intimate presence of the God he called Abba, Father depart from him. This is the death of all that have died, of all who have been consumed by despair, of all who return to the dust of the universe that itself shall in time be extinguished.
Yet two thousands years later we still know the name of the crucified, godforsaken son of man. Not because of scripture but because of resurrection. Likewise we will not be able to go beyond our desperate hope for universal salvation and transformation until the same resurrection is experienced by everyone and everything that has ever lived/existed since the beginning of the universe. So in light of that resurrection I think it is entirely appropriate to paraphrase this scripture:
“For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing (scriptures, theology, science, religion, sons of god, Satan)will be able to separate us from the love of God in Healer Jesus our Lord.”
What a BRILLIANT thread. Can I thank ALL participants for a thoroughly edifying read!
Amen to that pilgrim. This is probably my favorite passage in the bible yet I have nothing to share because I’m knocked back by each successive post. Speaking of resurrecting dave, I think psalm 133 is relevant here.
“How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together” is that not what is occuring here?
"it is like fine oil poured on the head which flows down the beard - Aarons beard and then flows down his garments. " annointing oil this is the Annointed high priest, which is the son of God
“it is like the dew of Hermon, which flows down upon the hills of zion.” Mt Hermon is the mountain of the gods (sons of god). Dew is the resurrection. Mt Hermon is the mount of transfiguration. We are being transfigured into His image from glory to glory.
“indeed that is where the Lord has decreed the blessing, eternal life”
Brothers and sisters it is a beautiful and pleasant thing to dwell together here. This place is the mountain of transfiguration as we are being transformed into His image. We are being raised up. We are dwelling on the mountain of God.
“Now we are the sons of God”
Amen to all the posts here and I have been so blessed by the replies and how my eyes have been opened.
Time and again my experience on this forum is so positive and nuturing. Thank you all for your love and help.
I’d just like to add to the love on this beautiful thread. For me, it is an exemplar of what this forum ought to be about: people lovingly and respectfully exploring the scriptures together, airing their views and opinions in a supportive manner - and hopefully helping to bring a brother or sister in Christ to a deeper understanding of the inescapable love of God (to nick Dr T’s phrase ).
Far too often discussions on this forum become overly polemical, even confrontational. I’m probably one of the worst offenders for that sort of thing 
. But I guess it is understandable, given the complex and profound issues we often explore, things which arouse deeply seated passions, challenge deeply cherished beliefs which define the very people we are.
Thank you so much for starting this thread, Catherine, and thank you everybody who has contributed. I am proud to be a part of your fellowship.
Peace and love
Johnny