The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Salvation according to Paul

Theology Biblical Theology
#1

Hello everyone! It’s my first post here. I’m almost 40, born in Poland, living in the USA.

Most of my life I had typical Christian beliefs - first Catholic, then Protestant, but just about a year ago my eyes were opened that today’s religion has mostly to do with money, but not with God.

There aren’t many things I’m already certain about in my theology. I know there’s no hell. I know that “eternal life” of just Christians sounds like a huge parental failure of God. This is what I do know. But there are so many things I don’t.

I recently studied the term save/salvation - Hebrew yasha/yeshua and Greek sozo/soteria. I know in the Old Testament it’s mostly about saving from enemies, from death. Provide with life and prosperity.

I also know the New Testament has warnings against year 70. Like in Matthew 24. And escaping that is salvation. But there are many passages where salvation can’t be translated as avoiding physical death. Mostly in Paul’s Epistles.

My question is -** how do universalists understand the terms save/salvation in these passages?**

For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! (Romans 5:10)
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Romans 10:13)
hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:5)
6 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? (1 Corinthians 7:16)
He has saved us and called us to a holy life (1 Timothy 1:9)

Any help or links will be much appreciated!!! Thank you!

#2

Hi, Predi – and Welcome! :slight_smile:

I don’t know about all universalists, but I interpret this in most cases as ‘saved from sin.’ Gabriel told Joseph, “You shall call His name Jesus (Yeshua), for He shall save His people from their sins.” According to Paul, sin leads to death, so this salvation includes being saved from death. (Obviously not physical death, but spiritual death (separation from God and one another?) is a strong contender.

Paul also makes the point that the law awakens sin in us, and sin having gained precedence by the law (though the law itself is good) in us, we become its slaves. “Oh wretched man that I am! Who shall save me from this body of death? I thank my God, through my Lord Jesus Christ!” I’m sure there are probably other things Jesus saves us from, but from my own study, the main thing seems to be that He saves us from our slavery to sin, and thereby, from our doom to succumb to death.

Blessings,
Cindy

#3

Hey Cindy! Thank you for the answer!

Funny, the words “He shall save His people from their sins” came in my study first, as they were the first occurrence of the word ‘save’ in the New Testament. I guess still the best rule remains to let the Bible explain the Bible!

Yes, I think what you’re saying makes most sense for me. Especially if we see the term ‘sin’ as rather unbelief.

Thank you again :slight_smile:

#4

As you probably know the word “sozo” (saved)means healed, delivered, made whole. The flaw of sin, that has brought death(in all its forms) into the world, is a focus on self that prevents love from flowing.

Love=life

Self=death

The difference between a super nova, its light shining effusively as opposed to a black hole sucking everything into the gravity well of self absorption.

John said, “He that loves knows God and is known by God for God is love.”…“He that hates His brother walks in darkness still”.

“By these great and precious promises you might become partakers of the divine nature”

“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

I agree with Cindy that we are saved from sin, and the effect of sin, death. I think the nature of that salvation is conversion and transformation- being conformed(inwardly) to the image of Christ, becoming partakers of the divine nature, light, life and love.

The destruction of the flesh referred to is, imo, the hastening of physical death as a penalty for serious iniquity being practiced by a believer, who pays that penalty in regards to his/her life, but nevertheless will still be healed, delivered, made whole spiritually in the Day, but as one passing through fire(1 Cor 3:15)- as opposed to one hearing the words, “well done.”

#5

I agree with what’s been said - primarily, Jesus came to save us from our sin. Not the consequences of our sin, not from suffering, not from physical death, but to destroy all sin in us.

It does have to be said that salvation within the Bible is talked about in past, present and future tense. We were saved, we are being saved and we will be ultimately saved. What each precisely means, I haven’t studied closely enough but I believe all are ultimately to do with being saved from sin and coming into fellowship with God. We are saved, in a sense, when we first come to believe in Jesus, believing in the truth of Him and what He asks of us. We are being saved in that Jesus is cleansing us from all sin while we are believing in Him. And we will ultimately be saved when he finally makes us completely pure.

There are verses of scripture that talk about being saved from punishment/wrath/judgement and we should be aware of that but I believe that even then, the intention is saving us from our sin. In the tenth chapter of Hebrews, the writer quotes from the book of Jeremiah, saying that the covenant God makes with us is that “I [God] will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds.” He makes a covenant to make us pure and to forgive all our sin and he won’t break that covenant either.

#6

When I compare this world and the world to come I cannot see my death as a penalty, to be honest :slight_smile:

But how come a believer is to pay for the sin if Jesus already paid the price, too? I don’t understand it.

#7

Well said, but what exactly does that mean?

I really wish you had! I talk to people a lot and I try to tell them that they’re being fed lies in their churches, but there are many questions they ask me that I have no answers for.

Religion today sees ‘save’ as ‘not being cast to hell’, I can easily prove it’s not true, but the next questions always comes up is, ‘So, what is salvation?’.

This makes sense to me, but not 100%. Neither our freedom from sin not our relationship with the Lord is any close to perfect. Is only our spiritual part saved?

I believe most of these passages have warnings from AD 70.

Thank you for your input!

#8

In short, it means that he will save us from all our sinful desires, thoughts, actions, non-actions, even the smallest inclination towards the smallest sin. As Cindy points out, the angel told Joseph that He would be called Jesus (meaning ‘Yahweh saves’) because he would save his people from their sins. He came to lead us out of sin, calling us into repentance, a change of heart, and the sending away of sins (often translated the forgiveness of sins, which is no doubt part of it but fundamentally it means a sending away of sins). He came to purify us of all sin, the problem that affects the fellowship and the doing of justice between every living being. That is what salvation fundamentally is.

When I said I hadn’t studied them closely enough (yet), I meant I hadn’t really gone into detail in each individual case of past, present and future salvation. I know what salvation fundamentally is.

As you say, a lot of people think ‘being saved’ means ‘being saved from eternal damnation’. I find that an utterly intolerable view on salvation and as you say, it’s easily proved false. I’ve even read someone say that we’re saved from the righteous judgement of God! I don’t want to be saved from the righteous judgement of God, I need the righteous judgement of God so that he can cleanse me of all sin!

As I alluded to, there are passages that mention being saved from other things. Passages that talk about being saved from condemnation (and not all of these are about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70), passages that mention being saved from the coming wrath, passages that mention being saved from ‘the present evil age’, being saved from the influence of the devil etc. However all of these things are secondary to being saved from sin (and even are meant to lead us to being saved from sin). Punishment is not our fundamental problem. Physical suffering is not our fundamental problem. God’s wrath is not our fundamental problem. Sin is. And as I said when I quoted from Hebrews, the covenant God makes with us is that he will cleanse us from all our sin. As Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:15, “he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.” He died to make us righteous.

No I don’t believe that only our spiritual part is saved. Many people believe that we only live with physical bodies for our time in this life and then we either go up to a disembodied place called heaven or a disembodied place called hell. I don’t believe that to be true. Just for an initial reason, read 1 Corinthians 15 - it’s fairly clear there that Paul is passionately committed to the idea that there will be the resurrection of our physical bodies. We do not live on earth for a small time and then go to a disembodied paradise - our bodies themselves are resurrected into immortality.

God is bringing together the reconciliation of all things and ultimately he will achieve it. And as it says in chapter 21 of Revelation "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” He will destroy all our pain, hurt, heartache, death and discomfort. That isn’t just a spiritual purifying, it is a commitment to ridding us of all pain, fear, and death.

#9

In his letter to Titus, his “child in the faith”, Paul wrote:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. Titus 2:11-15

#10

Great reference, Paidion. A very overlooked passage

#11

So I would have to say that among us, living, no one is saved :slight_smile:

It’s one of my very favorite passages! But for time I was under heavy influence of preterism. Preterists say the whole Revelation talks about the tribulation of Church from the first century and the New Earth is symbolic.

Such a view shuts us from joyful anticipating of the last chapters of Revelation but solves a few problems as well (for example the dead cast to lake of fire or “sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood” mentioned just when everybody should already be enjoying their eternal life…

But that’s another subject.

#12

Not completely, no :smiley: (or probably not anyway. There are some people that think it is possible to be completely sanctified in this life [John Wesley I believe held this view] but I imagine even they would believe that few people manage this).

This would partly go back to what I was saying about salvation being referenced in scripture in both past, present and future tense. When we come to faith in Jesus, when we make a commitment, give our lives to Him, there is a certain sense in which we are saved. We repent (have a change of mind and heart) and start the process of moving away from sin. That doesn’t mean we do it perfectly (I consider that a virtual impossibility) but there’s a direction you go, contrary to your previous life, hence being ‘born again’.

We see it in some of the Old Testament sacrifices. Only yesterday I was reading in Leviticus 14 about the laws for cleansing lepers. When a leper was healed under the law, the priest would command them to take two live clean birds. One of them would be killed over fresh running water (symbolising that it was clean, just like Jesus) and the other one would be dipped in the blood of the dead one (blood symbolising life). Then it would be sprinkled seven times over the leper who would have to shave off his hair, beard and eyebrows, wash his clothes and body and he would be pronounced clean.

That’s kind of what happens when we come to faith in Jesus, when we repent. He cleanses us from what has happened before, forgives our previous sins and we begin to share in His life (and death), believing in Him and becoming one with Him. That doesn’t mean we are perfect immediately or that we are completely rid of all sin but it does mean that we begin to live a life of obedience to Him, cooperating with His will and His leading, becoming like Him. That’s the intention, the reason for Him dying.

The horrid mistake people make is that they think His sacrifice absolves them of any responsibility, that their sins aren’t held against them anymore and that they can therefore be relaxed about all sin they are currently holding onto. That’s why for example in Hebrews 10, there is such a great warning about deliberately sinning after we come to know the truth - the author, whoever it is, describes an intentional lifestyle of sinning after coming to belief as “trampling underfoot the Son Of God” and profaning the blood of the covenant. That’s a warning for all of us - we are saved, yes, we come to know Jesus, we become one with Him, we repent of our sins and make a commitment to take up our cross and follow Him but we have to strive and continue with this. That doesn’t mean we’ll always get it right but we do have to do our best to obey Him. As it says in Hebrews 4, He sympathises with us because He has been tempted and has suffered in the same way as we have and will gave us grace and mercy when we need it but we also need to be careful we don’t take advantage of that otherwise we have a serious judgement coming our way.

Though we who believe that God will save all in the end also believe that the judgement will end in full repentance from the judged as well, as fierce as the judgement itself may be.

#13

That is correct. The following is an actual event.

A particular Eastern Orthodox priest was asked by a fundamentalist Christian, “Are you saved?”

The priest considered several responses. He considered, “I don’t know.” He figured that would be appropriate for a man in his position.
He also considered, “No.” That, too, didn’t seem to be the best answer. Finally, he replied:

“By the grace of God, I am BEING saved.”

#14

Thank you all for your wise posts above. Here’s how Gerry Beauchemin puts it in Hope Beyond Hell:

"In order to better understand salvation, we need to get a broad overview of what Christ came to do for us. He came to:

 Give rest (Mt. 11:28).

 Heal the brokenhearted, free the captives and oppressed, and give sight to the blind (Lu. 4:18).

 Comfort the mourning, give beauty for ashes, joy for mourning, and a garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness (Is. 61:2, 3).

 Save from sin and turn from iniquity (Mic 7:19; Mt. 1:21;Ac. 3:26; Ro. 11:26).

 Save from God‘s passionate displeasure (wrath) and just recompense of sinful conduct (Ro. 5:9). (See ―God‘s Wrath, page 71).

 Set free from sin (Ro. 6:22).

 Rescue from this present evil age (Ga. 1:4 NAS).

 Bring hope and God to the hopeless and godless (Ep. 2:12).

 Redeem from every lawless deed and purify us. (Tit. 2:11-15 NAS).

 Set free those who all their lives were enslaved to the fear of death (He. 2:14-15).

 Redeem from aimless conduct (1Pe. 1:18-19).

 Model compassion for the distressed and dispirited and igniting our hearts to pray for laborers in the harvest (Mt. 9:36-38 NAS).

If salvation is deliverance from eternal woe, why the emphasis on temporal deliverances? These passages speak of deliverance from being heavy laden, blindness, broken-heartedness, sorrow, mourning, heaviness of spirit, hopelessness, impurity, fear of death, aimless conduct, weariness, being distressed and dispirited, lawless deeds (sin) and their consequences, the present evil age. How can Scripture emphasize these comparatively insignificant temporal pains in the face of infinite pain? For life on earth is but a vapor (Ja. 4:14), and then we are hurled into eternal woe. How could James say pure religion is to visit orphans and widows (Ja. 1:27)? What a waste of time when we could be snatching the masses from hell! Why does Scripture not place the emphasis where it ought to be? Why the smoke screens? The only answer making sense to me is that a flawed view of judgment has distorted the significance and scope of God‘s salvation."

#15

#16

Thanks Paidion! BTW, I would add being born again (John 3:3), and eventually receiving our glorified immortal bodies (I Cor. 15:35-58) and living in the new heaven/new earth (Rev. 21-22), to the list of what it means to be saved. Because God is Love, it’s only a matter of time before everybody experiences this salvation (though I do believe that some will first require more painful refining, and some will receive more heavenly rewards, than others).

#17

When a believer is disciplined by God in this context, the believer is not paying for the sin, They are being penalized for sinning in an extreme and willful manner after being cleansed by the blood of Christ . The blood of Jesus will still be the only thing by which they will be reconciled to God and restored in the all in all at the end of the ages.

A person who is doing so is usually someone who cannot give up the enticements of this world, so- God removes them from the enticements, because receiving the reconciling blood of Christ occurs by acknowledging His Lordship and the glory of the sacrifice He made for us. Regarding that sacrifice and His Lordship with indifference after receiving it can have serious consequences.