The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Salvation beyond the grave

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#1

For anybody that argues that there is no hope for salvation beyond the grave, point out to them that after the crucifixion, Christ went and preached to the dead. He then smashed down the gates of Hades, carrying a multitude of souls in his wake.

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
1 Peter 4:6

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
1 Peter 3: 18 - 20

But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
Ephesians 4:7-10

When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from the rebellious—
that you, Lord God, might dwell there.
Praise be to the Lord, to God our Saviour,
who daily bears our burdens.
Our God is a God who saves;
from the Sovereign Lord comes escape from death.
Surely God will crush the heads of his enemies,
the hairy crowns of those who go on in their sins.
The Lord says, “I will bring them from Bashan;
I will bring them from the depths of the sea,
Psalm 68:18 - 22

#2

Unfortunately, the ET(eternal torment) response is:

“Well these people were born long before Christ and therefore never had the opportunity to hear of him or follow him or know that he died in their place - so they are the exception to the rule - just like Insane, retarded, too young to know better, etc.”
I know it sounds stupid but this is what I get from the ET people at the building they call a church.

#3

Well the point to make here is that if God could do it once, there is nothing physically stopping him from being able to do it again. The only thing left to discuss is whether God would want to do such a thing. This should be the easy part.

#4

Two points: Firstly being insane, too young or too limited in mental capacity is something to do with the body that we shall leave behind, after which we will be able to make unbiassed decisions.

Secondly if we treat God as transtemporal there’s no problem with his already having been dead and ascended long before the incarnation happened.

#5

I guess the point is that the ET crowd makes exceptions to their own rule of you must trust in the shed blood of Christ while you are still alive to be saved from eternal torment. If they make exceptions (which aren’t indicated by the scripture) for others, why not make exceptions for those that die without Christ since “Death cannot seperate us from the Love of God” Isn’t it kinda contradictory to say that once one dies, their fate is sealed for all eternity? or do they think that God is extending his Love to them while sustaining the fires of hell which torture them forever? Sick…

#6

I’m an engineer by training, which means I’m also a fairly decent mathematician as well. One of the things that helped to convince me finally that ET was false, was the growing suspicion that you couldn’t make a consistent model of what was going on.

In the 17th century the early chemists believed that there was a substance called phlogiston that was responsible for fire. When a piece of wood burned the pholgiston had got out leaving the ash. As time went on the properties of phlogiston got more and more complicated. Sometimes it had a negative weight, sometimes it was positive. Of course in the end Lavoisier discovered oxygen and that was the end of it. I think ET is the same, the model has to have so many special cases hung on it that it’s unlikely to be true.

#7

Agreed. When I thought about it, there were many more 'exceptions" to the rule than were actually being saved in this lifetime by the “regular” method of faith alone, in Christ alone

#8

The second response that is offered is that the preaching that is done is really more about proclaiming the judgement rather than evangelising those who have died so that they might be saved.

#9

4:6 clarifies that the preaching was of the Gospel. Thus though 3:19 only uses the word kerusso which means to proclaim, but not specifically to proclaim the gospel,immediately following in 4:6, same literary context, Peter says that Jesus proclaimed the Gospel, euangelion, to the dead so that they might live.

#10

Like UR’s we (Calvinists) at times do presume upon God’s grace :open_mouth: For those who are unable to comprehend the regular, visible means of entrance into the Kingdom ie the preaching of the Gospel, faith, repentance, confession, good works and perserverance, we allow for the possibility that they, presumably mentally handicapped and / or very young, may be within the Covenant of Grace and not the Covenant of Works. This would especially hold true for those whose parents are in the Covenant of Grace. All of those in the Covenant of Works shall be judged by their works.
I hope this helps your understanding as to where at least some of us Calvinists stand.

Matt

#11

There are many other “exceptions”. From age 5 to 15 a girl is repeatedly abused by her preacher father, there are also the mentally unstable, the schizophrenic, the bipolar, the split personalities(what if one of the personalities is saved?) what of alzheimers victims, even birth deformed, para and quadriplegic? They may not have a perfect excuse, but they all certainly have good reasons to doubt the love of God. How Come God loves a paraplegic to heal (I’ve never witnessed this but have heard it) but as far as anyone knows, God has not healed an amputee? Surely He loves them no less.