The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Salvation for the Dead (A Practical Guide)


#21

I read the first few paragraphs and fail to see any scriptural evidence of Hades being temporary and not hell. Nor do I find any evidence of Hades being another name for the lake of fire. Hades, in fact, could not be the lake of fire considering that Jesus descended into hell and delivered the faithful in Hades. For it is at this time that He reveals to us that He holds the keys to death and Hades. IMHO, it’s like tomatoes and tamatoes, Hades, and Sheol are all parts of hell because the soul has not been salvaged. It remains destroyed. They are still in the state of condition of being without God and His Son’s loving hands of salvation.

This sounds New Age and very much like Spiritualism.

Also, I would like to bear witness and give testimony to having got to know both fallen humans and fallen angels in the condition of hell. They are as the Bible describes. Unlike those in heaven, the humans are scattered throughout the underworld. They are likened their Father, the devil. They are in need of Christ’s divine powers of salvation, which immediately restores the soul and makes us and the dead like Adam and Eve, were when they were first created and God looked upon man and said they were “good”. Neither can we, nor the dead be in heaven in the presence of God the Father and see His face without Christ’s divine powers of renewing the soul. This, my friends, I believe is what Jesus meant when He said that we must been born again. It is by the powers of Christ that we are immediately born again upon the death of our bodies. The dead are without friends or family. All that they loved in their lifetimes have be taken away. They are destroyed because they are without God’s love and what that love can do for them. They thirst for all that a most loving Creator can give them…family, friends, beauty, love and happiness. As I choose to put it…it is hell to be without God in the afterlife. We need Him. And to go against His plans for us is to go against all that we were created for and it spells disaster for the soul.

I do respect your input Holy-Fool-P-Zombie and thank you for your participation.


#22

I would like to share with you an Ancient Homily that was read for Holy Saturday…the day that Jesus had died on the cross. I highlighted what I found most interesting. Please do read it carefully. I hope that you enjoy it as much as I have.

The Lord’s descent into hell

"What is happening? Today there is a great silence over the earth, a great silence, and stillness, a great silence because the King sleeps; the earth was in terror and was still, because God slept in the flesh and raised up those who were sleeping from the ages. God has died in the flesh, and the underworld has trembled.

Truly he goes to seek out our first parent like a lost sheep; he wishes to visit those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death. He goes to free the prisoner Adam and his fellow-prisoner Eve from their pains, he who is God, and Adam’s son.

The Lord goes in to them holding his victorious weapon, his cross. When Adam, the first created man, sees him, he strikes his breast in terror and calls out to all: ‘My Lord be with you all.’ And Christ in reply says to Adam: ‘And with your spirit.’ And grasping his hand he raises him up, saying: ‘Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light.

‘I am your God, who for your sake became your son, who for you and your descendants now speak and command with authority those in prison: Come forth, and those in darkness: Have light, and those who sleep: Rise.

‘I command you: Awake, sleeper, I have not made you to be held a prisoner in the underworld. Arise from the dead; I am the life of the dead. Arise, O man, work of my hands, arise, you who were fashioned in my image. Rise, let us go hence; for you in me and I in you, together we are one undivided person.

‘For you, I your God became your son; for you, I the Master took on your form; that of slave; for you, I who am above the heavens came on earth and under the earth; for you, man, I became as a man without help, free among the dead; for you, who left a garden, I was handed over to Jews from a garden and crucified in a garden.

‘Look at the spittle on my face, which I received because of you, in order to restore you to that first divine inbreathing at creation. See the blows on my cheeks, which I accepted in order to refashion your distorted form to my own image.

'See the scourging of my back, which I accepted in order to disperse the load of your sins which was laid upon your back. See my hands nailed to the tree for a good purpose, for you, who stretched out your hand to the tree for an evil one.

`I slept on the cross and a sword pierced my side, for you, who slept in paradise and brought forth Eve from your side. My side healed the pain of your side; my sleep will release you from your sleep in Hades; my sword has checked the sword which was turned against you.

‘But arise, let us go hence. The enemy brought you out of the land of paradise; I will reinstate you, no longer in paradise, but on the throne of heaven. I denied you the tree of life, which was a figure, but now I myself am united to you, I who am life. I posted the cherubim to guard you as they would slaves; now I make the cherubim worship you as they would God.

“The cherubim throne has been prepared, the bearers are ready and waiting, the bridal chamber is in order, the food is provided, the everlasting houses and rooms are in readiness; the treasures of good things have been opened; the kingdom of heaven has been prepared before the ages.”

source: http://www.vatican.va/spirit/documents/spirit_20010414_omelia-sabato-santo_en.html


#23

Interesting. Although, it is not a practice that I adhere to. But the Latter Day Saints still practice it today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead


#24

I would like to apologize if I sounded a little abrupt. I do get a little passionate about my work at times. And, I can clearly see that your heart is in the right place. May peace be with you.

Scott


#25

Child of God, I don’t believe the Bible is talking about life after we leave this earth.

When we physically die we are no longer human. The good works that we are to be doing are not for those who have already left the physical world. They are for our own spiritual nourishment, for others living in the present and for the future generations yet to come.

Cindy, I disagree. Hell is a very real place for many people who live in the world at present and it was real for many who lived in the past. They aren’t and weren’t there of their own free will. Jesus did give His life willingly. However, He was subjected to persecution, hatred, torture and “hell” on the cross by the will of others. Slaves who were tortured and beaten, their children stolen and sold off like animals at a market, were in a “living hell” not of their own will. I can give many more examples, but I think you probably get my point. As Ephesians 6:12 say, “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.”


#26

Np. it isn’t. The Old Catholic Church is really an extension, that split historically - from the Roman Catholic Church. And that’s where the person having these visions - came from. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Catholic_Church. But saints and mystics having visions, are part of Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, church history. As well as the history, of Native American spirituality. This provides visions with a context.

New age and spiritualism are really “garbage” - in my book. The stuff in my first paragraph is the real stuff. But I’m just sharing it, to provide different perspectives.

If you don’t believe in visions…then do you believe God still speaks in dreams? I came across this interesting, Patheos article:

Does God Speak to People through Dreams? An African (and Personal) Christian Perspective

If you remember from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura - in another, thread here. I see scripture as primary. But that reason, tradition, and experience (as the Methodists see it)…and historical church tradition as a whole (as the Eastern Orthodox see it), is the lens we view scripture in.

God is working today. Not only in the Christian churches. But I also feel he’s reaching folks. within the context - of other faith traditions. I don’t knock anything here, where a person is actually trying to follow Christ and his two main commandments (love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself).

If that’s what you are doing,…in the Christian path you are following, then I’m all for it.

On hell, here’s where I differ from you.

Hell is a state and not a place (i.e. Eastern Orthodox perspective)
Descriptions of hell (or Hades), in the N.T. - are metaphorical and NOT literal. Or to use the language, of Anglican N.T, Scholar, N.T. Wright. It’s using abstract, rather then concrete language (see https://youtu.be/vggzqXzEvZ0).


#27

No disrespect to you LLC, but scripture clearly states that -

1 Corinthians 15:19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

When are physical bodies die, we are human spirits. Jesus Himself is now both 100% human and 100% God.

The Catholic Church practices offering up good works known as indulgences for the faithful dead in purgatory.

2 Maccabees 12:46. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.


#28

LLC,

I wasn’t talking about the hell on earth that many (indeed most–to one degree or another) people suffer in this life. That is very real, but it’s not the end of our education. We go on in the afterlife (or post resurrection if that’s your belief) and whatever it may be that we still need to learn in order to be conformed to the image of Christ, we will learn, in whatever way God deems necessary.

Hades is the Greek version of the afterlife. It is the grave, essentially, to both pagans and Jews, and it was used to translate the Hebrew “sheol” into Greek when the LXX was made. Of course the myths had it as a place, divided into “paradise” and “torments,” but in practice (as I understand it) it most commonly meant simply the grave. In the NT, these words are all translated (in some versions) as “hell”: Hades, Tartarus, Gehenna, Grave. Hades was either a place of myth (in Jesus’ parable about the rich man and Lazarus) or the grave. Grave is the grave. Gehenna was a place of dishonor, used once to offer children to Moloch and then defiled by the Hebrew king to prevent it ever being used that way again. It’s a way of saying that your life will be ruined if you do these things and you will suffer great shame. Tartarus was used only once (if I remember) and was speaking of the place fallen angels were held (metaphorically or otherwise I do not know). It was the mythical prison of the Titans of Greek legend.


#29

Cindy, I believe this is what the writers of the Bible are speaking of.
Psalm 139:8 David says this: “If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.”
David was not in the afterlife when he wrote this.

Child of God, Have you been to the afterlife ( as in life after we leave this earth) to know this for a fact? What happens after we physically die, is all theory and speculation to me.


#30

That = 200%


#31

Psalm 139:7-8. Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

This scripture refers to the afterlife and God’s omnipresence through His Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:26. Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groaning’s which cannot be uttered.

Father God possesses a singular spirit form and is all places, at all times, including the future, through His Holy Spirit…they are one.

The Holy Spirit glorifies Christ -

Jesus said to the Apostles –

John 16:13. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Romans 8:16. The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

I have written a good study of the Holy Spirit which includes photographs, if you care to read it -

https://christianspiritualandbiblicalinsight.wordpress.com/2017/11/23/a-christian-biblical-study-of-the-holy-spirit-spiritual-orbs/

I have witnessed a great deal of spirits. I saw Jesus when I was a nine year old child. I heard the voice of Father God. His voice sounds of greatness beyond this world. And the sound of power wisps around His voice as He speaks. I’ve seen the Holy Spirit and got to know Him and some of His works. I have also seen and heard the beautiful voice of an angel. And shamefully, I have seen and had conversations with both demons and the unhealthy dead of the netherworld.

You can also experience the spirit world in your dreams. We are often out of our bodies and in the spirit world during R.E.M. sleep. An angel of the Lord came to Joseph in a dream to tell him that the child was of the Holy Spirit and not to be afraid to take Mary as his wife.

Mathew 1:20. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Ezekiel would have visions of God in vivid dreams.

“Saint Augustine of Hippo (d. 430 C.E.) left several writings clearly expressing his opinion that dreams can come from several sources: from the divine, from below, or simply from everyday life.”

“St. Augustine also discusses lucid dreaming in one of his letters – as evidence of life after death.”


#32

Child of God, I read your article. From what I understand, the orbs in the pictures you show are subtle energy. I haven’t studied to much into it, but it is very interesting. I do believe that some of the ancients had a better understanding of this subtle energy than we do today, and they used it in healing practices as well as in other ways. I’ve also heard that religious and other structures were constructed on sites where subtle energy was most powerful. Don’t get me wrong, I do believe in an afterlife. However, none of this really tells us what actually happens when we leave the earth, or where we go from here.


#33

Energies have been part of Eastern Orthodox theology, since the time of Christ. Where they divide things, into God’s essence and energies. It is part of the basis for Theosis.

And I have a question, for the child of God. How do you know, your visions ARE valid? And other people are NOT having valid visions? Wheather they are Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Old Catholic Church, Protestant or Native American?


#34

I don’t think so, LLC. I think David was being poetic whilst referring to God’s omnipresence, not literally talking about present or past hell. In fact, he probably didn’t have our idea of “hell” in mind at all. The word used here was sheol, which means grave and is used both of the godly and of the evil dead throughout the OT.

It was poetry, which in scripture, is what David wrote. David was saying IF I did this, I couldn’t be separated from God, nor if I did that… There’s nowhere to get out of God’s presence. Since God is omnipresent and infinite, that simply is a statement illustrating the mind-boggling fact that God is ALL. God isn’t just everywhere; God IS the everywhere.


#35



#36

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Muppet wookie?


#37

Unknown! :smiley:


#38

The truth can be found in the Bible.

You either go to heaven or hell.

John 3:16-18. For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

If you die in Christ, you go to be with Him.

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

You could be temporarily punished until the second judgment at which time you could find yourself as a sheep at Jesus’s right side. The dead at this time will be judged based on their works. Or, you could find yourself in the lake of fire.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

If you are alive in your bodies at the time of Christ’s return, you could go up in the Rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

What happens after the lake of fire, nobody knows, but here is a clue.

1 Corinthians 15:12-31. But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord.


#39

I never said that others are not having valid visions. I know my visions are valid because I have over 14 years experience with the spirit world and my discernment comes to me through the Holy Spirit. My visions and help comes from heaven above…this I hold dearest to my heart. I have witnessed many truths in the Holy Bible and have a considerable amount of faith in it. Although, I confess to be Roman Catholic, I prefer not to put labels upon myself. And I do not engage completely into any single Church theology. We all fall short of the glory of God, including all the Churches and theologians. It is not a matter of finding the complete truth. It is a matter of finding the most truth. Peace.


#40

But you inferred it - by your commentary. When I mentioned the visions, of the Old Catholic Church mystic - Tiffany Snow. Whose husband I know… and he is a priest, in the Old Catholic Church. And I have been in correspondence with him - in the past.

And I have spent years, with a Roman Catholic priest. Who has the gift of healing and hearing the voice of God. And my Protestant mom, who was deceased at 82.5 years of age. Was born with the gift of prophecy.

And I spent years, with medicine men and women, of the Ute, Ojibwe and Lakota tribes.

When I post something, it’s NOT new age garbage. And I have done my homework.

I hope we can remember that - going forward.

Not ALL visions everyone will agree with. And SOME need special insight, in order to decipher them. Like how many people REALLY understand, the visions of the Luthern mystic Jacob Boehme? And what do we make of the visions…of the Christian woman…who sees the tribulation, as the Zombie Apocalypse?

Visions need guidance and direction. Whether it’s:

Geroge Fox and Jacob Boehme, in the Protestant world
Folks like Saint John of the Cross, Hildegard of Bingen and Julian of Norwich - in the Roman Catholic world
The desert fathers, in the Eastern Orthodox world
Or folks like Black Elk and Fools Crow, in the Native American world

In the Native Amerian world, you usually need a medicine man or woman…or one of their holy people - to explain the visions.

Let’s take the case of Black Elk…He was a Lakota Holy Man, Medicine man, and Roman Catholic. Here’s a recent - but VERY interesting - story:

US Catholics Pursuing Sainthood for Native American Visionary Nicholas Black Elk

Which of his visions are valid? His Native American ones or any Catholic ones? Or both?