Salvation for the Dead (A Practical Guide)


I stick with the answers, of the Roman Catholic Church. Which I have shared previously. :wink:

From Do Miracles Happen in Non-Christian Religions?:

And the proper perspective on the miracles, as shared previously - from a Sufi saint.

Talks with a Sufi Shaykh.

Actually, the Native American Medicine Man, Holy Person, and Roman Catholic Fool’s Crow…that had a Lutheran minister, write his biography…said something similar. That he is a hollow flute, that God works his healing through. And also Eastern Saint Madhusudandas in This House Is On Fire - had the same perspective.

It all depends on perspective.

If the miracles bring a person closer to God, then they are real. If they point to the person doing them, then they are NOT. I knew an Eastern saint, that used to give away spiritual powers - to people close to him. But if they use these powers for personal gain - they go away. :smiley:
And I knew Eastern saints, that had followers that are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, and Sikh. And the saint always encouraged them to follow and deepen, their respective faith tradition. :slight_smile:
If a person asks for wisdom, God will grant it. And if a person is lucky, the Holy Spirit might grant gifts. Like the discernment of spirits or the gift of knowledge. :angry:
In fact, Old Catholic mystic Tiffany Snow (whom I’ve talked about previously, in this thread) once said this - from her visions. That folks from other religions will be baring the stigmata of Christ. :smiley:

But then again. I’m talking to a person, that believes no TRUE miracles - can exist outside of the Christian faith. And someone like Benny Hinn can heal EVERYONE INSTANTLY. When even Roman Catholic priest Father A., who has the gift of healing and hearing the voice of God - CAN"T do that. :laughing:


"As one leading authority, commissioned by a pope, pointed out in the late fifteenth century, a miracle was not really a miracle unless it helped prove the truth of the Christian religion:

“For in a miracle four conditions are required: that it should be done by God; that it should be beyond the existing order of nature; thirdly, that it should be manifest; and fourthly, that it should be for the corroboration of the Faith1” … racles.htm

And let’s no forget your favorite 4 point Calvinist website:

"Question: “What does the Bible say about demonic/satanic miracles?”

Answer: You will be hard pressed to find someone who has never heard of some kind of religious miracle. Many Catholics are convinced of the validity of various sightings of the Virgin Mary, stigmata, weeping or bleeding statues, and even “incorruptible bodies.” There are reported miracles in other religions, as well—Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam all claim to have documented miracles.

Satan has the power to perform miracles. While his power is limited, he can and does perform miracles in order to deceive. John 8:44 says that Satan is a liar and the father of lies. Satan can make himself appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). He does this to draw people away from God.

When Moses and Aaron confronted Pharaoh, they performed a miraculous sign to confirm their message from God (Exodus 7:8–10). The magi of Egypt were able to perform the same miracle “by their secret arts” (verse 11). God’s miracle was shown to be greater (verse 12), but the fact is that the magi were able to perform a satanic miracle in the king’s court.

During the tribulation, the Antichrist “will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie” (2 Thessalonians 2:9). These miracles are explicitly said to be empowered by Satan. Jesus warned that the end times will be characterized by the treachery of counterfeit prophets who “will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive” (Matthew 24:24).

The existence of demonic miracles is one reason why we must test all spirits: “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1). Any time we are in doubt, we are to make sure that what is being taught lines up with what Scripture says. If the miracle worker is teaching something contrary to God’s Word, then his miracles, no matter how convincing they seem, are a demonic delusion.

Examples of convincing demonic miracles today are the apparitions of the Virgin Mary in different countries. These appearances of Mary seem legitimate; indeed, they are believed by millions of people. But when we compare what the apparitions say to what Scripture teaches, it is not even close. Over the course of several Marian apparitions, we are told that God wants to establish worldwide devotion to Mary’s immaculate heart, that souls will be saved if devotions to her immaculate heart are established, that she is the mediatrix between man and God, that praying the rosary is required to enter heaven, that she receives and answers prayer, that taking communion makes reparation for sins committed against her, and that blessed objects should be worn and placed in homes.

None of these messages are of God. Jesus is the only way to God (John 14:6). Mary does not have an “immaculate” (sinless) heart. Devotion to Mary is not necessary, and the Bible never instructs us to pray to anyone but God. Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (Hebrews 7:25; 1 Timothy 2:5; 1 John 2:1).

The message of the Marian apparitions clearly contradicts Scripture. Did the people who claim to have seen Mary experience a real miracle? Yes, possibly. However, the entity calling itself “Mary” is not working for God’s glory or pointing people to Jesus Christ. Rather, Mary is being glorified, and people are being told to earn their own salvation by works.

Demonic miracles are real and they do occur. It is our responsibility to make sure that we do not give in to them. We must keep our Bibles open and put God’s revealed truth ahead of any miracle we see." … acles.html

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1 John 2:15 (KJV)

Many Christians have been lured by the discount gospel the Jezebel spirit offers. I am constantly coming across people who are unwilling to give up the things of this world yet still expect to make it to Heaven. Our salvation is not a past event but a daily walk. It is not something that happens overnight, but as we grow in Christ the things of this world lose their luster. God will speak to us about the things in our lives that are not pleasing to Him, but only if we have ears to hear and eyes that see.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (KJV)

Is there anything in this life that you are unwilling to lay at the foot of the cross? Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of soup, what will you compromise your salvation for; television, music or movies? There are many who call themselves Christians who are living in the sin in fornication, adultery and even sodomy who think they will make it. To hold on to these sinful relationships and think you will enter the kingdom of Heaven is to call God a liar! When we have a true salvation experience we put everything on the table. Everything? Yes, everything! It isn’t ours anymore we belong to Him.

Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. John 15:20 (KJV)

Want to see what happens when you try to hold something back from God? Look at what happened to Ananias and Sapphira. Want to see what God might ask of you? Look at the life of Job. We are constantly being tested and tried by fire. A Christian with an easy life is no Christian at all. We are called judgmental, ‘holier than thou’, often misunderstood and ridiculed, and that by supposed brothers and sister in Christ.

Those are just the emotional trials, some of us in this world are suffering physical persecution and even death. If you cannot give up celebrating pagan holidays such as Christmas or watching filthy movies do you really think you will be able to endure physical persecution when it comes?" … sHHUojwaM8


Again, everything is a matter of perspective. I follow the path of Christiani Inclusivism. Which is that followed by the Roman Catholic Church since Vatican II, a majority of Eastern Orthodox scholars and a great deal of Protestantism.

Miracles and ceremonies have been part of the Native American way - for centuries. They don’t call them miracles. They call them natural happenings. Or a better word is Medicine - anything that heals. The same thing goes with those following, the Sufi and Yogic path.

If you wish to believe, that NO miracles exist OUTSIDE the Christian church - so be it. And if you wish to believe, someone like Benny Hinn can heal everyone instantaneously. When those with the gift of healing and those in Pentecostal churches - can’t…So be it.

But I believe Christians give the Devil MORE POWER, then he actually has. In FACT, if you were the head, of the FBI X-Files division. You would chalk up all that Mulder and Scully find - to the work of the devil :laughing:

The devil can just as easily, perform miracles in a Christian setting. As he can, in the non-Christian setting. How do YOU know, that Benny Hinn…Is NOT doing the work, of the devil? Isn’t he doing things, that others with the gift of healing…or from churches with Charismatic elements or a Pentecostal focus - CAN’T do? Or is there some NATURAL explanation there?

But I don’t try to “sell” anything. Except for the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse. :slight_smile:

My contention is that if a ceremony or saint (Christian or Non-Christian), prays for something to happen. And they attribute the results to God - and NOT the ceremony or themselves. Then it is God performing the miracle. And they are just the channel.

So NOTHING has changed for me. I’m still the same person, abiding by the beliefs - in the historical creeds. And what the ACNA believes. And in harmony, with an Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox understanding of things. And the last two, add Sacred Tradition to the mix. As a vessel for understanding Christian truths - besides Holy Scripture

And my Christian mom - now deceased. Has been to the stuff I have seen. And she could discern spirits. But saw NOTHING wrong, with the people and ways - I have hung out with.

And I have been warned, by either feelings or visions - when I was approaching something BAD. I believe the Holy Spirit, is guiding me in these things. Just as it has guided my mom. But I don’t talk about PERSONAL guidance or PERSONAL spiritual things.

People must follow, the light they are given. I must follow, what I have been guided - to witness and observe.

But I see God NOT only operating in the Christian setting. But OUTSIDE the Christian setting as well.

OBVIOUSLY, if you quote in DEPTH, from the Calvinistic site Got Questions…They have a different perspective. But I have seen a conservative Calvinistic theologian, give an entirely different perspective - at a Theosophical Society talk (see Rev. Dr. Jay Moses: What Does Salvation Mean in a Multi-Religious World?

Don’t you have anything ORIGINAL to say, Origen :question: :laughing:


HFPZ, I agree.

I also agree here, if one is wise. Stick around long enough and you learn to see through a lot of people’s crap, including one’s own. :slight_smile:


This article may interest you.


Oh good. So the many centuries in the past two millennia of Crusades, Inquisitions and burnings of “heretics” are finally over. It’s suddenly no longer politically correct to be exclusivist anymore. Now we bring others into the fold of the “one only true catholic faith & church” not by tortures, but by simply declaring them “included”. Still, though, all those outside of that inclusion will still burn in hell forever. Some things change. Some don’t.


I think in ways, some things are getting worse. Could the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse, be closer than what we think :question: :open_mouth:

But some things are getting better. Now there is a greater openness, among the Protestant church bodies - for conditionalism. There’s also a place, in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theology - for Hopeful Universalism. It should be noted, that I side with elements of Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, theological perspectives. None of the things you mentioned here have been present in Eastern Orthodox church history. While I side with conditionalism… I also side with Hopeful Universalism. And Christian inclusivism expands the doors, to who is counted among the faithful - and why. :smiley:


Here is something that I just thought of the other day, in order for Christ to be the Savior of all mankind, salvation must reach all mankind, including the dead. How do you suppose this could happen?..if not by works…when God has always demanded atonement to be made for sin?


In the mortal life of this world’s age salvation reaches the dead (those spiritually dead) by the gospel, by the Holy Spirit, by conviction, etc, & it may involve Satan & destruction as per 1 Cor.5:4-5:

4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord

Compare 1 Pet.3:18-20 & 4:6:

18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which He also went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water

6 That is why the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged as men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


The scripture that you quoted above refers to those who died believing in the coming Messiah. They were saved during the three days that Jesus descended into hell. Those handed over to Satan with good works will be saved during the second judgement, the rest will be tossed into the lake of fire. Good works offered up to Christ, if accepted, can make atonement for the unfaithful and faithful dead in hell today.

2 Maccabees 12:46. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.