That was some interesting stuff, Jason. Thanks!
Screw all this Greek crap! We’re saved from death. Immortals don’t rob and steal and kill. BEING immortal is change enough. Immortals are free to worship rightly - they are righteous in that worship. They are not looking for agreement or accolades - they are immortal!
I’m Irish, myself. Cá bhfuil an leithreas? 
Don’t be so shy ranran 
And yet, clearly we can imagine mere immortals stealing, murdering, betraying, lying, adultering… the whole history of world religion and folklore indicates that we humans, at least, would not become ethical by merely becoming immortal.
More to the point, it’s blatantly obvious that none of us are saved from death, per se; even Christ dies. We’re baptized into His death, not to be saved from death, but so that our deaths (and thus our lives) may be like His.
Whatever life we have is conditional upon God in any and all cases–no exceptions. That won’t change; it’ll be just as true in the age to come as it is now, and it’s just as true for the redeemed in the age to come as it will be true for the wicked who are resurrected to judgment (even if they are annihilated afterward.) Zoe eonian involves something more than merely being saved from death. Jesus was called “Jesus” because He would save His people from their sins. Without that, eternal life is worse than meaningless.
(Notably, in the Biblical story of the Fall, God drives the now-fallen Adam and Eve away from the garden, precisely so that they would not put forth their hand to the Tree of Life and live forever. If being saved from death leads to being saved from sin, the cure should have been for them to immediately eat of the Tree of Life and be saved. It is not sin that is the wage for death, but death that is the wage for sin.)
How do you know that? There’s some monumental change that takes place beyond turning over a new leaf. The unrighteous are made righteous under Christ. Is this all a matter of us remaking our will? Apparently, immortals don’t want to sin - the struggle is over - can you imagine what that’s like? I can’t. And I certainly can’t see me making that happen. You only have to start with the fountain of sin - pride - to see that it can’t be our doing, our ‘repentance’. “Ain’t I something” mentality.
Lastly, there is no such thing as ‘mere immortals’. It’s not common to our thinking or experience.
yeah I get your drift Jason … the idea man has a free will is bootstrap religion
free will = dead works
What do you say, we rest my friend
Buddy, that looks like more Greek to me.
See previous parenthetical note regarding the Fall. Whether I am supposed to take that as having historically happened (in any of various ways) or not, it surely represents principles I ought to be paying attention to. The same is true for the widespread biblical testimony to rebel gods at war with God. The “whole history of world religion and folklore” includes the Bible, too, in this case. Even if I denied the existence of such things (which I am not inclined to deny–but even if I did), the point is still that even immortal sons of God can fall.
The resurrection of the evil as well as the good makes much the same point. They’re obviously being given some degree of new life, and insofar as God has kept them alive to be resurrected then they were still (though conditionally) spiritually (though not bodily) immortal even in hades/sheol. (Even if that involves God bringing their spirits forward through time to the point of resurrection, thus not existing in temporal sequence of the intervening historical time.) Their continuing life, given by God, doesn’t keep them from being punished as continuing doers of iniquity; nor does it count as zoe eonian. What happens to them afterward? If they are eventually saved, it isn’t in virtue of them being ‘immortal’ – they already were that. (They have to continue existing in order to be saved, of course, but the continuing existence itself isn’t their salvation. They’re exhorted to repent of their sins, and drink and wash their robes in the freely given river of life. They aren’t exhorted to present themselves as being great by doing so, by the way; but they are exhorted to repent, just like sinners are exhorted everywhere else in the Bible.) If they continue existing in hopeless punishment, their continuing existence obviously isn’t saving them (because they’re continuing to exist yet not being saved). If they’re annihilated by God, then why?–because their case is hopeless? But why is it hopeless so long as God keeps them in existence, if keeping them in existence forever somehow changes them into sinless creatures? I’ll grant that a Calvinist might go with annihilation on such a ground, that if God kept them in existence then that would save them from death and thus from sin (yet God has decreed that a certain number of sinners shall not be saved, so some shall thus be annihilated); but then there was no point for them to have been generally resurrected first–on this ground, that would have been to at least bring them closer to salvation!
Meanwhile, when we cooperate with God, especially in Christ, then through Christ we begin to have zoe eonian now, today. (GosJohn is especially emphatic about this.) And yet, we eventually die anyway, insofar as any person can die. Which should not be surprising, as Christ Himself (Who must have had zoe eonian the whole time, if anyone has ever had it–and was certainly able to begin giving it during His ministry, or so He claimed) also has died insofar as any person can (by God’s grace) die.
Becoming immortal is not what saves us; and it is not death per se that we are being primarily saved from.
Now that ain’t Greek to me. You are speaking my language, Amigo.
With that, my friend, you are earning your salvation.
Carnal man ever wants to believe he has a part, vainly never acknowledging his complete and utter futility (Rom 8:20)
It takes an Apocalypse, an unveiling of God in Christ to bring man to the end of himself. This is why you fall so fully on Christ in a crisis, for He comes as the fire in darkness to burn up our carnality. This is the Lake of Fire … first fought with screaming and kicking and later embraced as a fair harbor. We actually do learn to count our trials all joy, for Christ unveils Himself most fully there. The old man is cut short in proportion to the New Man seen tall, and it is at God’s pleasure the New Man is revealed. It is all Him, in Whom we have our being. Oh, to just “be” in Him, for He is our Rest. He is the Sabbath isn’t He?
God in Christ saves us from what?
HE SAVES US FROM OURSELVES!
I’ll tell ya this Gospel is a lot simpler than we like to make it to be!
“The Lord held a little child in his arms, when He declared, ‘of such is the kingdom of Heaven’”
Will you pray with me, and for Ranran’s sake please let us not pray in Greek. “O my God! keep me ever in the number of those babes to whom Thou revealest thy mysteries, while Thou concealest them from the wise and prudent”
John
I sure as hell don’t think so. Neither does God (including Jesus), the prophets or the apostles (including St. Paul), or they wouldn’t continually exhort us to repent of our sins and cooperate with God.
I am well aware of Rom 8:20, just as I am well aware that “whenever you should be doing all these things that are prescribed to you, be saying ‘We are unprofitable servants–we only have done what we ought to do.’” (Luke 17:10) (I am even aware that the Greek is actually ‘useless’ there, not merely ‘unprofitable’! 
)
I am also well aware that we are led by God’s Spirit to also ourselves put the practices of the body’s dispositions to death, joining with God in doing so: “yet if, in spirit, you are deathing the practices of the body, you will be living. For whoever are being led by God’s Spirit, these are sons of God.” (Rom 8:13b-14, with lead-ins from the beginning of the chapter.)
To join in cooperation with what God is already and always doing in my life, instead of rebelling against it, is not “earning” my salvation, even if my salvation cannot be completed without that cooperation. St. Paul is well aware of this, having been originally a Pharisee who was thus taught that if Israel would only keep the Law perfectly for one day then God would send the Messiah to save Israel in answer to that merit having been achieved by Israel. That would be earning salvation. But the righteousness of faith says to this effect, “Do not be saying in your heart ‘Who will be ascending into heaven’–that is, to bring Christ down–or ‘Who will be descending into the submerged chaos?’–that is, to be leading Christ up from among the dead. But what is it saying? ‘Near you is the declaration, in your mouth and in your heart.’” Which is the declaration of Christ Himself, the declaration of faith that we are proclaiming. Nevertheless, “for with the heart it is believed into righteousness, yet with the mouth it is avowed for salvation… if ever you should be avowing with your mouth the declaration that Jesus is Lord, and should be believing in your heart that God rouses Him from among the dead, you shall be saved. For the scripture is saying, ‘For everyone, whoever, should be invoking the name of the Lord, shall be saved.’” (Rom 10:5-13)
I am no gnostic (I am far too hyperorthodox to accept any idea of salvation by doctrinal proclamation, as ironic as that may sound thanks to horrible levels of gnosticism among even the ‘orthodox’ party historically); and I am painfully aware of how gnostic interpretations of Rom 10 (among many, many other verses) have contributed directly to non-universalistic theologies. But it would be irresponsible of me to just ignore things like Rom 10, too. At the least, I can affirm that God routinely and obviously considers us to have some personal responsibility in cooperating with His salvation of us. Nor is this hard for me to understand, when I consider that as an eternally fulfilling interpersonal union God Himself (as Father and Son and Holy Spirit) must also be dedicated to fulfilling interpersonal unity with and among His creatures, too–without those persons only existing as ‘modal operations’ of God.
True love is between and among persons. Without persons in the plural there can be no true love, only selfishness at best. That’s why we’re called to stop being selfish and to be self-sacrificially self-giving instead, as our Father in heaven is. God Himself (in any Person) doesn’t cease existing personally as Himself when acting self-sacrificially (on the contrary, God’s own self-existence actually depends upon such eternal action among the Persons of God); neither do we. We become more the persons God means us to be, when we co-operate with Him in righteousness (which is, in Greek, ‘fair-togetherness’). Not less.
I mean, for goodness’ sake, I’m the guy who bothered to point out in exhausting detail that the New Testament never uses the terms ‘propitiate’ or ‘atone’ with God as the object, but always with God (or at least the one being sinned against) as the doer of the action and sinners as the receiver of the action (exactly opposite the expectation inherent in pagan religious uses of ‘propitiation’ in Greek and Latin–and exactly opposite the expectation of at least some notions of penal substitution). Why would you think that I consider cooperation with God to be earning my salvation??? 
I am extremely well aware that salvation is not and cannot be earned. But I am also extremely well aware that we are expected to repent of our sins and cooperate with God, and that without repentance there is no forgiveness of sins. Simply ignoring everything the scriptures have to say about that, and only focusing on God’s side of the relationship, isn’t realistic. It’s quite literally ir-responsible.
We cannot repent, as in turn the other way, of our sins. Have you ever tried it, my friend? It is impossible. Now we’re talking practicality here, not something laid out like a nifty equation in our head.
Jason, I tried to repent for years and finally I gave up. And wonder of wonders it was then true repentance took place. It was then, upon my ( which was in actuality His) surrender that Christ came to be and walk in me. Then sin began to fall away from my life. Put in other words, I tried to pick up that cross and couldn’t budge it even a cubit. I couldn’t budge it abit. I looked at that cross and even walked away for twenty years thinking it is all a bunch of BS. Then out of nowhere He that had suffered my wayward soul from the beginning picked up the cross and began to raise me into His resurrected life. You see I have always been in Him and He in me and He had to unveil that to me that I might find rest in His finished work.
Now rest your weary head my friend and let the Lord of your heart bury you and carry you into His very Glory. It’s all good when you know the God that is ALL in ALL!
John
John,
I’m not sure I understand what your point of view is.
Paul say we are to ‘work out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in us.’ To my understanding, that means we are to ‘work’–but that is not the same as ‘earning our salvation’. It seems to me that the salvation is wrought in us by God, as we work with Him in doing His will.
Could you clarify your position and compare/contrast with what I have said above?
Thanks,
Sonia
Sonia, do you not see your dilemma as you make shambles of grace and the pure gift of salvation with your adverb “as” and that which follows.
And yes there will be much fear and trembling in man until he finally comes to rest in the full realization of God’s work in him. It is a progression as the fearful and trembling carnal man finds himself in the Lake of Fire dieing the second death. How few know the fearful have there part in the LOF and this is a good thing. The LOF is God and it is a now experience to burn out the murderous, lying, fearful nature in you and me.
One day we will all stand in **awe **of God and tremble with joy for the work He has done in us.
John
Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. It’s not irresponsible to believe that we are forgiven. It’s the starting place of christian faith - what we say saves us. That’s a change of mind (repentance) from the normal quid pro quo thinking of disbelief. “If I’m worthy, God will forgive.”
If I start in disbelief - that Christ did not take my sins away - what amount of my doing can ever change that? (He can’t go back to the cross - as if that were even possible) No real repentance can ever take place with that foundation of unbelief. The focus becomes me and faith in my faith to accomplish what disbelief says Christ didn’t accomplish, namely, the forgiveness of my sins and mankind’s as well.
My sins were forgiven before I knew it or came to believe it.
Could it be we are also not responsible if we believe?
For our faith is given by “He, who is responsible for all things.” 
Oh, to know we are off the hook and have always been, since the Lamb was slain before the foundations. Such is our liberty in Christ.
Can you believe it?
Not unless He bids you so.
I’ll tell ya, it is all Him, “God All In All”
In Him,
John
Do you know God does not impute sins to man. He doesn’t lay our short comings to our accounts. He never has, as the Lamb was slain even before the foundations, before there was ever man or sin.
Satan dwells in the mind of the carnal man, so it is, that man accuses and condemn his neighbors and and even himself. It is the carnal mind in man that is at enmity with God, and such is the need for Christ to come and give us His mind, the very mind of Christ.
In giving us His mind, Christ saves us from ourselves, our condemning selves. He pulls us out of the vicious circle of self condemning self. He frees us to love our self and love our neighbor as our self. Most importantly He frees us to Love Him, Whose name is LOVE. That’s the circle we can walk in or better said*** rest in; His circle of love.***
2 Corinthians 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
To Him be all glory, that we can share this message of reconciliation with the world. And that we might share it with our neighbor, that he may count himself as “blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.” (Rom 4:8)
In His Sweet Lord Jesus,
John
OK. I’ll buy that purely out of experience of the convicting power of the Hound of Heaven. Of course, convicting is not condemning - it’s conviction of our guilt (not our sins, big difference) and it drives us to the cross and the gospel.
Nevermind, I don’t buy it. I am convinced that He saves us from death. He came to set the captives free. Wanna see some captives? Look at the disobedient dead from the FLOOD - whom He preached to while with them. (the dead speaking to the dead) Death is a prison - where the worm never quits. But they will be freed by the resurrection - just as we will.
And the faith-challenged retort. “Duh, people are still dying.” …and how else did you expect to be like Christ and the rest of mankind? There are no loop-holes. Man-up like He did. Death sucks. You will join Him in that…suckage.