The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Sanctification, Satisfaction, & the Purpose of Purgatory

Theology Eschatology
#1

James Gould is definitely worth checking out if you haven’t already (Thanks to RevDrew & Robin for recommending him to me). I don’t agree with everything he says but he articulates some things really well. For example:

he"]Neal Judisch summarizes the argument for purgatory as follows. Union with God requires moral perfection – an ability to love with all our hearts. Few people achieve holiness in this life. God cannot unilaterally give us a radically altered nature at death. Therefore, there is some kind of post-mortem process of spiritual growth by which we are transformed into the kind of beings who can enter perfect and eternal union with God.

The inner life of the triune God is one of persons in communion, and God made human beings to enjoy that fellowship eternally. As long as we are focused on ourselves, we cannot give ourselves to God in love or participate fully in God’s relational life. Human sinfulness has two dimensions, and salvation deals with both. Sin creates a problem between us and God; it alienates us from God objectively. Justification removes the guilt of sin and puts us right with God. But sin is also a problem within us; it makes us self-centered subjectively. Sanctification frees us from sin’s power and makes us loving. Being forgiven and being purified are two different things. An alcoholic son does not stop having a drinking problem just because his parents pardon him for wrecking the family car. He still needs moral reform. In the same way, a relational change in God’s attitude to us does not automatically change our characters. While not mutually exclusive, and while salvation brings both pardon and healing, it is, John Hick says, ‘this reality of persons transformed, or in process of transformation, from self-centeredness to God-centeredness, that constitutes the substance of Christian salvation’.Now I don’t think EUs have to hold this view of Purgatory, but it certainly fits very well with it.

Anyway I googled “Neal Judisch Sanctification, Satisfaction, & the Purpose of Purgatory” & found it freely available as a Word doc so I’ve saved it as a pdf & attached it here:

Judisch_Purgatory.pdf (199 KB)

#2

Thank you for this… I will be sharing and reading…Looks like a great study.

#3

, James Gould"]It might seem that belief in purgatory contradicts Anglican teaching. Point 22 in the Thirty Nine Articles says, ‘The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory … is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture.’ While the Reformers had good reason to reject the scandals involving indulgences, pardons, relics and invocations to the saints, it is possible – as Newman argued – to believe in purgatory without accepting ‘the Romish doctrine’ … since the satisfaction and sanctification views are clearly different.

In the satisfaction theory the purpose of purgatory is to remove guilt by paying for sins which are not repented of before death. The problem with this view is that, according to Scripture, Christ alone makes complete and final satisfaction for sin. … But while the imperfect do not need further punishment, they do need additional purification.

In the sanctification theory that I have defended the purpose of purgatory is not to pay for sin, but is to complete the process of transformation which is necessary for eternal fellowship with God. As Justin Barnard puts it, ‘on the satisfaction model, what gets purged through the purgatorial process is the penalty for sin … By contrast, what gets purged in the sanctification model is the disposition to sin.’

Many Anglicans have abandoned the Reformers’ assumption that death in and of itself perfectly sanctifies a person’s character. While some avoided the term ‘purgatory’, Ussher, Newman, Pusey, Maurice, Claude Moss, C.S. Lewis and the Commission on Doctrine all embrace the idea that those who die in a state of grace and favor with God but who are not free of sin and ready for complete union with God need a period of growth in their ability to love.

#4

Of course, Newman went on to be Romish after all. :wink: But I don’t recall offhand if he accepted the satisfaction or sanctification view of purgatory.

I kind-of think I recall that modern RCC doctrine on purgatory involves sanctification not satisfaction, but I haven’t specifically checked the Catechism on this recently. I wouldn’t be overly surprised to discover that they’ve changed their “teachings about faith and morals” on this, though – I’ll try to remember to cross-check the Dogmatic Sources on that topic.

#5

Alex (and/or anyone else who believes that the justified must (or may) need to experience a post-mortem purgatory period before entry into final rest),

I have heard it implied by some here that there might be a stage of purgation for those converted in this life after death, but this is the most explicit I’ve seen thus far.

Three questions for those who see a possible purgatory for Christians:

  1. How do you interpret the response of Jesus to the regenerate thief (who experienced very limited sanctification in this life), when He said, “Today you shall be with me in Paradise.”

  2. If Adam went from a state of being “able to not sin” to being “unable to not sin” in moments, why can that not be reversed in moments?

  3. The apostle often refers to the mortal flesh as that which retains our sinfulness. When the mortal flesh has passed away at death, would it not imply that the sins associated with the flesh would also pass away with the flesh?

Thanks,

Dan.

#6

I’m fairly sure there’ll be a stage of purgation, but it’s not fundamental to me. Gould discusses the reasons in more depth & I assume Walls does too. However, for fun I’ll have a go at your questions :slight_smile:

I think Paradise is only a temporary holding place before Judgement Day & God making all things new (which I suspect involves gradual purging/education/sanctification) in the New Creation. e.g. I think our unperfected spirits hang out with Jesus until JD.

I’m curious as to why you think Adam was ever in a state of being “able to not sin”? From my limited knowledge of machine learning/AI, as soon as you give an entity choice, they’re able to make bad choices e.g. Adam could’ve chosen to kill Eve, and that would’ve been sin. It seems to me that usually it’s easier to make the bad choices, especially if one lacks experience & knowledge. Thankfully the Spirit seems to be able to gradually help us improve in this life (although often it can be two steps forward, then one step). I don’t rule out the possibility of instantaneous change, but just think it’s less likely, given the way the Spirit seems to work now.

I think that spirits, angels, etc. (that don’t have mortal flesh) can still sin. I think fundamentally, sin is anything that’s not in perfect unity with God. Therefore unbelievers, demon, satan, etc. in hell would be sinning (whether or not they were conscious). Obviously some sins are tied to our flesh e.g. you can’t murder someone if neither party has a physical body.

#7

That notion comes largely from the judgment statement, apparently referring to the coming Day when truth will be revealed, by St. Paul at 1 Cor 3:10-15 (although if partaking of the Holy Spirit and coming to the knowledge of the truth requires instant regeneration and instant total justification first with sanctification proceeding later, then Heb 6 and 10 has some much stronger things to say about those who have been totally justified already but continue to impenitently sin!)

Purgatory for those already loyal to God has always been regarded as part of heaven, not a function of hell per se (whether hades or Gehenna). Being on the “paradise” side of hades, or the Gehenna side, is equally exposed more strongly to the omnipresence of the Holy Spirit, the consuming fire of God. The key difference is in how someone is choosing to respond to it, but it’s salting with the unquenchable fire either way, which is the best of things and leads to having salt in our hearts and being at peace with one another (as Jesus says toward the end of Mark 9).

So there’s no conflict of principle: sanctification continues for those in Paradise.

“Able to not sin” is not the same as “unable to sin”; the former is a question of willing choice, and people may still be willing to sin. However, I expect purgatory for those already on the side of Christ (in Christ’s judgment – they may be people who never realized they were cooperating with Christ already in life, much less expecting Him to be the ultimate Judge, per the sheep and the goats) will be a much smoother process involving healing and instruction. The impenitent get healing and instruction, too, but still choosing to fondle their sins the process is more inconvenient to them. The worthless works we built on the only foundation anything can be built on (Christ) will be burned up, and if we insist on holding to those works we’re going to be burned, too, in proportion to how insistently we hold to them (and I expect in regard to some other proportions).

There is a long Christian tradition of the Beatific Vision: it’s great for those who are willing to cooperate with it, not so much for those who aren’t willing to yet. Blind people’s eyes can be healed but if they insist on squinching their eyes shut anyway, they have to be led to open their eyes. A time will come when God has no more purposes for confirming someone in their blindness.

The flesh retains our sinfulness, but sin comes from our hearts – not our physical hearts but our spiritual hearts. Those who stay impenitent in their sins through hades will be resurrected into physical bodies again, which is important as an enacted sign of God’s intention to save them from sin, and those physical bodies will start retaining the results of sin again. That will make things more difficult in some ways, but might make things easier for some people, too, as the results of their sin become more manifest to them by comparison. If you’re thirsty and sick and dirty, go drink in the freely given water of life, and wash yourselves, and eat of the leaves of the log of life! – while that’s certainly symbolic language, using physical metaphors to speak of spiritual situations, there might be some physical fulfillment of it, too.

#8

I think we can be with God, restored to relationship with Him, before having become fully sanctified.

I’m not sure if that’s the best way to frame the situation. I’m not sure that Adam was ever in a different state than the rest of humanity. I’d venture to say that perhaps the state he was in was proven by his choice to disobey God.

Hmm… Well, I think “flesh” refers to what we inherit in Adam, sin and death, symbolised by our flesh, but not literally referring to our physical bodies. When Jesus says that if our hand causes us to sin, we should cut it off … we know it is not our hand’s fault, cutting it off won’t fix us because the problem runs deeper than our literal flesh.

When Paul speaks of having “confidence in the flesh” he mentions racial superiority, social and religious standing and achievements, and keeping the Law – the things that man values. As I see it, flesh is a contrast to Spirit and is a metaphor for the things of “the natural man” which are in opposition to the Spirit of God.

Sonia

#9

Thanks Alex, Jason and Sonia for your replies.

On this forum is the first I’ve heard of a concept of Purgatory outside of Roman Catholicism. I read the article by Neal Judisch that Alex posted above. Interesting.

I have always wondered how a sinner could be instantaneously transformed into a perfected saint while still retaining his personal identity. In other words, if I am immediately transformed in the the way I think, am I still “me” anymore? It seems “robotic” to have such a sweeping change of mind. Thus, I find the idea of a purgatory does have some merit. (But I have always brushed the thought over, accepting by faith that such seemingly impossible things are not impossible for God to do).

Another challenging passage that seems to rule out purgatory is when the apostle says in 1 Cor 15 that we shall all be changed at the return of Christ, and sin will be no more (vs 55,56). There doesn’t seem to be the time gap necessary for a purgatory for those who are alive (nor for any who die in the days leading up to that day).

Jason - you mentioned 1 Cor 3:10-15 as a possible support for the concept. As I read the context of 1 Cor 3:10-15, I see that the pictorial language of laying a foundation and building on it (in verse 10) is similar to the pictorial language of planting and watering of verse 6. Paul planted; Apollos watered. So also, Paul laid the foundation (vs 10) and “someone else” is building on it. Who is the “someone else”? Would it not be Apollos, and/or other church leaders (bishops, elders, etc…) ? Thus the “each one take care how he builds upon it” would be referring to the elders. The work they are building is the temple (singular) of God (vs. 16,17), which is you (plural). Then the apostle continues his thought that he started the chapter with, saying not to boast in men, whether Paul or Apollos, or any else (vs 22). I don’t see how this passage yields any room for an interpretation relating to purgatory.

Anyway, I’m thinking that the concept of purgatory is speculative and that maybe I shouldn’t give it too much more thought as there is a lot about the ages to come that we don’t know and can only speculate about. Maybe there is a purgatory; maybe there isn’t. I do find it interesting that non-Roman Catholics consider such an idea though.

#10

I think that “Union with God brings moral perfection.” He is the fire that purges us of our sin and heals us of our iniquities. He loves the hell out of us! Literally!

#11

I find it difficult to believe that we will suddenly become mature at some point, though there are indications that this may be the case … “and we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.”

But scripture also speaks of a process of growth and learning …
Eph 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ
Hbr 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
Phl 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

A process of continuing sanctification makes the most sense to me, but it may be a much quicker process than I imagine. :sunglasses:

Sonia

#12

No probs. I’m glad J & S replied too, to give a more rounded answer :smiley:

I discovered the other day that George MacDonald often said something along the lines of “When it came to Heaven, Hell & Purgatory, Protestants through the wrong one out.” I think Protestant overacted to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, but thankfully the Anglicans, & people like Jerry Walls, are correcting that imbalance.

Same here. I like Sonia’s comment about this.

I agree, which is why I don’t usually bring it up unless asked :slight_smile:

#13

It surely appears that Jesus believed that purification was needed for everyone:

For [size=150]everyone[/size] will be salted with fire (Mark 9:49)

#14

My intuition (and it is only intuition) is that if there is a purgatory, then we’re already in it. That’s not to necessarily say that it ends with our physical death, although that is a possibility.

#15

I recommend the following on the sanctification model of purgatory by philosopher Jerry Walls:

  1. Jerry Walls’ talk

  2. Purgatory for Everyone

  3. Purgatory: The Logic of Total Transformation