I have been wondering about this for sometime so I thought I would address it here in light of a previous post about Satan.
I’ve been taught all my life that Satan and God were somehow in competition for our souls and that either one could win out; whoever did would influence where our eternal souls ended up. I have come to the conclusion thought that Satan is an adversary for our good and I believe that scripture backs this up. (turn him over to satan that his soul might be saved and He was led by the Spirit to be tempted by the devil) So my question to you folks: Is satan powerful or is he simply a tool used by God for God’s purpose? If he has any power, what exactly does he have the power to do?
I have been wondering about this for sometime so I thought I would address it here in light of a previous post about Satan.
Satan gets my vote for “tool”.
Both. But ultimately tool.
Besides, in today’s slang it’s just funny to call him a tool.
Okay, sorry I probably shouldn’t have said that.
Satan is as much a rebel child of God as any of us are. And none of us are only tools.
Except all those people called Dick
Satan is a tool of God and the carnal mind of man … even Dick’s.
Not that your humor goes unappreciated, but the answer must be elements of both it seems to me. My hunch is that Satan has in fact been granted certain"powers" which we don’t seem to possess. Story of Job comes to mind, as well as his ability to “take” Christ to the various locations in the wilderness experience. Further, if one buys in to the notion that the talking serpant was in fact Satan that certainly reflects a kind of “power” that eludes us. And later it seems he has power so great that IF it was possible he would deceive the very elect. Also, we must never minimize the power of Satan to cause pain in the heart of God; something I think we clearly see at the Cross.
In addition, the idea expressed here
contains – or at least hints to strongly – the idea that I have long been wrestling with; namely, the idea that bad things, because they are used to good purposes by an infinitely resourceful God, are somehow needed, or necessary, or maybe even not so “bad” after all. While we all fall in slightly different places along this spectrum of how we see this dynamic, it seems well worth noting the line exists.
Thus my concerns about a God who apparently “shrugs” at violence – since it’s all going to work out in the end anyway. And all my concerns that if evil is being used by God, doesn’t that somehow justify evil.
I’m still not convinced evil was in any way necessary for God to accomplish His purposes, but the fact that He extracts so much good from the evil of His creatures via His OWN infinite creativity does allow for the possibility that we are, somehow, further along the journey for having witnessed God’s redemptive handling of evil. So these sorts of philosophical dilemmas keep me fascinated. In the end, no matter how much good God brings from evils, they must remain, in certain crucial ways, separate from and “other” than God.
This of course is not the first time this topic has cropped up on this site!!!
A friend of mine wrote this on a forum concerning Satan. It is quite good.
WHO IS SATAN?… REALLY WHO?
You may have heard it said, that Satan was once God’s most beautiful angel and that he (Satan) decided to become God and take over, so God sent him down to the earth where he now rules. And so, many say, God and Satan are now in some cosmic chess match over the souls of mankind.
You may have also heard that Satan goes by another name. That name, many say, is Lucifer, the morning star, or day star.
Well, this paper is not about what you may, or may not, have heard. It is about what, and who, Satan really is.
Much of the teaching that endorses the belief that Lucifer is Satan is found in this following scripture.
Isaiah 14 12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
I want to point out some things in this scripture that describe who, and what, Lucifer is. As well as point out what Lucifer did.
- Lucifer fell from Heaven (Union with God)
- Lucifer is called, The Son of the Morning, Daystar, Morning Star.
- Lucifer, tried to be like God
- Lucifer is a MAN.
Let us now briefly move over to Satan, who, is also called the Devil.
Satan does not appear to be a Man, anywhere in scripture. Satan seems to be always be INSIDE people. It seems almost as if Satan is IN man’s thoughts, tempting them, as Satan tempted Peter, and Judas, much the same way, as well as a score of others in scripture.
When Christ called Peter, Satan, he was talking to PETER, not another man. Christ also called Judas, Satan. And then Christ actually commanded Judas/Satan to do what he must. Jesus also told the children of Abraham that they were actually, the “children of Satan”. Mainly because they did not believe the TRUTH.
Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, the same way he tempts us. As Christ is tempted in all points as we are. We are not tempted by a MAN, as this "Lucifer " character is said to be. We are TEMPTED when we are DRAWN AWAY BY OUR OWN LUSTS.
The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. = This is temptation. And SATAN tempts.
So when we are TEMPTED, scripture says, we are DRAWN AWAY by our OWN LUSTS.
Satan tempts = Lust in Man (But I will get into this later)
It is easy to see that SATAN is not a MAN, as Lucifer is, but is a SPIRIT.
I think it is also important to note that Satan can ONLY TEMPT, when GOD ALLOWS or COMMANDS. So much for that cosmic battle going on.
Satan tempted Job at God’s command. Jesus was DRIVEN INTO THE WILDERNESS to be TEMPTED by SATAN (To be drawn away by his own lusts). This is VERY important to note, because GOD drove JESUS into the wilderness to be tempted, in much the same way as he DROVE ADAM into the wilderness as well. God was in charge here. He did the driving, Satan did the tempting.
Now it is also important to remember, Jesus was tempted IN ALL POINTS as we are. We are tempted again, by our CARNAL THOUGHTS, when we are “DRAWN AWAY BY OUR OWN LUSTS”
So it should be easy to see that SATAN is NOT A MAN at all. But a SPIRIT. As Jesus cast out these SPIRITS of the DEVIL all the time.
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick.
Jesus is the WORD OF GOD, which is TRUTH. Satan is the FATHER OF ALL LIES. It stands to reason that only the TRUTH can destroy a LIE (wouldn’t you say?).
Let me give you an example:
For many years people believed the world was flat and the center of the universe. This was their belief. If anyone spoke to the contrary they would be called heretics and put to death. This is a great lesson for us, as today, many have been taught many fallacies, and when the TRUTH is presented those deceived begin to discredit and tear down, even to kill.
Nevertheless, the WORD never returns void. The TRUTH will accomplish what it is sent into the world to do. Which is why, today we know that the Earth is more like a sphere and the SUN is the center of the universe. You see the lie persisted only as long as the TRUTH was no presented.
The darkness (their ignorance) was overcome by the LIGHT (truth). Once the TRUTH was spoken about the world, the LIE that was believed (a flat world) was CAST OUT!
This is a great example of how Christ CASTS OUT DEVILS.
But let’s get back to this SATAN cat. Clearly, we can see that SATAN is not a MAN, cannot be a MAN. Satan can ONLY be A SPIRIT (thoughts) inside a MAN.
One could say, SATAN is simply the LUSTS in man. As scripture tells us. “we are TEMPTED when we are DRAWN away by our OWN LUSTS”
SATAN = SPIRIT = OUR THOUGHTS
Jesus said, “My WORDS are SPIRIT and truth.”
God is SPIRIT… and no one has seen God at anytime.
You see A SPIRIT comes from a THOUGHT. The question is which THOUGHT are we believing, and which THOUGHTS do CHRIST (truth) cast away.
Many will fight this with their dying breath that LUCIFER is SATAN, and not the MAN (Adam) in the Garden that fell because he tried to become God himself. But just because somehow will fight to the death to hold unto a belief, does not make that belief true.
So how do we do get to the bottom of this? Well, we use the source, others use to conclude their point. That source in the bible.
I will come right out and tell you, Lucifer is NOT SATAN. This is a false teaching, a HUGE error. Lucifer is actually ADAM. The rest of this paper will back up this statement.
a) SATAN is not a MAN.
b) Lucifer is a MAN.
c) Satan is a SPIRIT
d) Lucifer’s flesh is eaten by worms. (FLESH not SPIRIT)
e) Satan was a murderer and LIAR from the BEGINNING - Jesus said, “there is no TRUTH in Satan. He is the FATHER of ALL LIES.”
f) Lucifer on the other hand, ONCE HAD THE TRUTH and FELL IN THE GARDEN.
This last point is our “DEAD” giveaway.
LUCIFER is a MAN that FELL in the GARDEN, because HE WANTED TO BE GOD.
Now doesn’t that sound like another man, we know, that God created to be his express image on earth? ADAM, perhaps?
Did not Adam the MAN, exalt himself by eating the fruit of the tree that SATAN (who was a liar from the beginning) tempted Eve with.
Did not ADAM clearly disobey God and FALL out of HEAVEN, as we are told Lucifer did?
Let’s take a look at what the SERPENT said IN THE BEGINNING to EVE. And remember the SERPENT lied from the BEGINNING. He was more subtle (devious) than any other creature.
Satan said to EVE, “If you eat of this tree YOU SHALL BE LIKE GOD” –
This is the LIE SATAN planted in EVE’S head. So EVE ate and then gave to ADAM. It is actually the same lie SATAN plants in our head. Trying to convince us, that we are in control, that we are separate from God, kings of our own castle, which is actually (God’s temple/our body)
God warned ADAM that the instant you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, YOU SHALL DIE. (Death)
ADAM, was God’s most beautiful creation. Now many teach that Lucifer was the most beautiful… Well, if Lucifer be ADAM, than that is true. “to which of the angels did God say, you are my beloved Son”
Is there ANY more beautiful, and glorified, creation of God, than MANKIND, which is the express image of God? I think not.
Before the FALL (remember Lucifer fell in the garden). Before the fall, Adam was one with God. Adam knew the TRUTH. Adam was God’s most beautiful creation, UNTIL he decided that he could be LIKE GOD, and he ate, because he said in his heart… “I shall be like the most high, knowing good from evil”
Notice in the Garden, the SERPENT (clearly Satan) did not fall. He tempted Eve (drew Eve away with her own lusts) and murdered ADAM in the process… IN THE BEGINNING of creation, mind you. (Satan, a murderer from the beginning)
The MORNING STAR/DAY STAR has NEVER BEEN SATAN - The DAYSTAR RISING is CHRIST rising from the DEATH of ADAM’S FALL.
The MAN who was to be the SHINING IMAGE OF GOD, exalted HIMSELF and said, I WILL EAT OF THE TREE THAT WILL MAKE ME GOD. — And so ADAM DIED.
And now the WORLD SUFFERS because of this CARNALITY, and when we look upon this ADAMIC nature will we not say, “This is the MAN that caused the nations such trouble.”
ADAM = LUCIFER, MAN, FALLEN
SATAN = WASTER, DESTROYER, FATHER OF LIES, TEMPTER, SPIRIT
Let me share the scriptural comparison side by side to illustrate further WHO REALLY fell in the Garden.
How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’ Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit."
LUCIFER a MAN in the Garden who wanted to be like God, and ended up in DEATH.
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as god, knowing good and evil.
There is the rub. Right there in Genesis. Then look at the next verse to back it up.
6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Right there: The Lust of the eyes, Lust of the Flesh, Pride of Life (Lucifer)
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man (ADAM/LUCIFER); and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
LUCIFER - DRIVEN OUT OF HEAVEN, brought down to the ground and death
ADAM - driven OUT OF HEAVEN, brought down to till the ground in death.
Lucifer = Adam
“Jesus said, Satan was a murderer from the beginning”
ADAM was killed by SATAN’S TRICKERY. = the first MURDER, God did say, the moment you eat of this tree… you shall die.
Now let’s look at what Satan really wants:
It has been taught that Satan hates man, because God made them. And that Satan is out to get us. The truth is however, Satan does NOT HATE MAN, quite the opposite, Satan LOVES MAN, he ONLY LOVES THE THINGS OF MAN.
This is why, Man is a LIAR. You see, Satan is not some spooky monster and demonic creature in some cosmic battle for the souls of man.
a) Look at the Old Testament, Satan has a great purpose and does only what God wants. He can only test Job when God allows it. God actually points out Job for Satan to tempt.
b) Jesus tells Satan WHEN to do what HE MUST DO.
c) God sent MESSENGERS OF SATAN to put the THORN in PAUL’S FLESH. God is IN CONTROL.
Anyone who thinks God is not large and in charge does not know the TRUTH.
Now here is what Satan actually cares about, Satan cares ONLY about “The things of man.”
Jesus said, “get thee behind me Satan, thou carest only the THINGS OF MAN.”
According to the book of Numbers, “God is NOT A MAN that HE SHOULD LIE.” You see MAN LIES. God does not. Let GOD BE TRUE and EVERY MAN a liar.
And WHO is the FATHER OF ALL LIES pulling the strings behind the scenes? That’s right SATAN. The SPIRIT of SATAN.
He is the FATHER OF ALL LIES, in SATAN there is no truth and never has there been. So why did God create this SATAN?
Well, God created the waster to destroy, the serpent goes about on his belly (carnality) eating dust (lies/imagination = dead flesh).
God put enmity between SATAN and EVE’S SEED (Christ) – There is a war between them. And does not scripture also say, “the FLESH is at enmity with THE SPIRIT”
Seeing a trend yet? Satan = Lies, Lust, Flesh, Cares only about the things of MAN
Are you catching on yet? Are you starting to see, what, and who, SATAN REALLY IS?
When you listen to the SERPENT (Satan) - YOU DIE.
To be Carnally Minded is DEATH.
SATAN in other words, is MAN’S CARNAL MIND. Not some spooky horned beast with a whip ruling the pits of hell. When you listen to the CARNAL MIND, you DIE. Your DEATH is the suffering you experience when you listen and believe the lies this SATAN(Your OWN lusts) tempts you with. And, it is ONLY THE TRUTH that SETS YOU FREE. (Christ)
So why would God, create such a SPIRIT. The answer is to TEST YOU and TRY YOU.
God chose the furnace of affliction. But our present sufferings will be compared as nothing, when the truth of who we are in Christ is revealed.
You see, even SATAN has a purpose. Don’t believe me? Then ask yourself why the apostles would willingly turn over unbelievers to SATAN so their spirit would be saved.
1 Corinthians 5:5
hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
SATAN has a great purpose, if you don’t listen to SHEPARD, the SHEEPDOG will bark and bite and scare you until you do. This is how we know truth from lies. The Truth sets us free from the bondage of Lucifer’s/ADAM’S fall and ADAM fell because he was drawn away by his OWN LUSTS, he was TEMPTED by SATAN.
God created ALL THINGS and called them GOOD. All things. We may not understand why things are the way they are. But we do know, God works everything together for those that LOVE THE LORD. (TRUTH)
You see, God does not have an adversary, as some might say. WE DO! And that adversary is the CARNAL MIND OF MAN (Satan)
Jesus said, “get thee behind me SATAN, THOU only carest about the things of MAN”
Man is a LIAR, Christ is the TRUTH. We need to resist the DEVIL (the negative thoughts/LUSTS/Lies being fed to us by that snake (Carnal MIND) in the garden (Our Mind) and he will flee.
In closing, I hope you can see, Lucifer is simply another name for ADAM (The fallen Carnal Man) and SATAN is the CARNAL MIND that FED his soul (Eve) and brought about their demise.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
I get where you’re coming from but what would your friend do with this verse?
I don’t see the conflict nor the connection, Nimble? Maybe you could elaborate.
Would he say the same about God, since God is a spirit as well?
Sure, and you measure thoughts by the unction of the Holy Spirit. That which is acceptable bears the fruit of the Holy Spirit. The things of God’s Kingdom are very circular.
I have a hard time with this line
Can’t I then say
Now maybe I am seeing something totally different than you but it seems that this line at lease implies that GOD=THOUGHTS
Surely God is more than our thoughts while your friend seem to be saying that Satan is simply our thoughts.
Sure there are Holy Spirit (God inspired thoughts) thoughts that bear good fruit.
Then there are fleshly thoughts which are but the cherubim that guard the Tree of Life. For flesh cannot enter into the Heavenly Kingdom/the Garden of Paradise/ and partake of that Tree which be Christ. All that is of the fleshly realm must die to be resurrected. In your thoughts you are either eating off of and bearing fruit of the tree of good and evil or you are feeding on the Tree of Life and producing God’s inspired fruit. This all happens within.