The Evangelical Universalist Forum

"Saved out of Calvinism: the John 3:16 Conference" SBC

Since there are a number of threads addressing Calvinism I thought some of you might find this interesting…

It is a very short video of a young man at the Southern Baptist Convention asking a question about their direction towards Calvinism. In the question he includes his own testimony of how he was “saved out of Calvinism”, as in converted to Jesus, to the true gospel of Christ’s love for every person who ever lived. He shared how there was no power in his life even though he was in leadership for 8 years. He claims he was “not saved” as a Calvinist because the love of God was seen as limited. It is a stark testimony of how difficult it is to subsist on just one part of the Gospel Story.

“Saved out of Calvinism: the John 3:16 Conference”

youtube.com/watch?v=9MhSHoylMjk&feature=related

Interesting post Phil.
It does not surprise me at all.
Whilst I would have hesitated to label anyone as ‘unsaved’ (even before I became a universalist). All I could say is that I have not felt the same Spirit when talking to an outright Calvinist. And how could I? Doesn’t a Calvinist believe in an entirely different god? I think so.
I think it is essential to see God in ALL people. (and I DO even in Calvinists but I believe that he is more hidden than in most of my atheist friends)

God bless

Thanks for the comment Pilgrim, Yes, I don’t agree with his assessment of how he defined what actually happened to him as “saved” and now “born-again”. But I believe the experience of coming to embrace God as the Lover of the whole world can do such wonders to your soul and outlook on life. As a former Calvinist myself my family looks at me and notices huge changes since I can actually entertain the thought that God loves everybody. If I had not considered UR I would hope I would have at least eventually found my way back to Arminianism for my sanity’s sake.

I just thought it was interesting how the differences between the Calvinist’s God and the Arminian’s God are so great they are spoken in terms of being “converted” and “saved” away from each other! That’s the conundrum we need to highlight to the Church in order for them to see that the only rational picture of God is the one where He is both willing and able.

There are many believers who were “saved” in changing from one denomination to another. Usually it is people who were raised in a specific denomination but experienced God through another denomination. This happens with people from every denomination though it seems to happen more with older denominations. There seems to be a trend though amoung Evangelical churches of people learning to appreciate the litergy and passions of older denominations, and pentecostals learning to appreciate the stability of tradition. It’s an intersting phenomenon.

Yes it’s a stark revelation of how much we desperately need “the other side of God”. And when you cross over it feels like a profound born-again experience! When you are starving for God’s love to be unlimited on the one hand or to trust God’s strong sovereign hand in your life and salvation on the other the transition can be life-changing. I would imagine that there are probably powerful conversion stories of those beat up by Arminianism being freed (initially) by coming to Calvinism. But then it never lasts because such essential components are forfeited when you become either an Arm or a Calv. You are soon starving again.

Very interesting, I’d love to share it on FaceBook, but unsure if it would help… what do you think, how do you think a Calvinist would react?

Alex, Personally I think it’s a great thing to put out there for Calvinists to see. For me I was in a theological bubble with my Calvinism and had a lot of misconceptions about Arminians. I assumed a lot of things that were not true because I was so isolated. I really thought we had the best doctrine and were the happiest for it (major denial but…) The internet is allowing the reality of the tension to be highlighted in a much more intense way. And this tension will give rise to more and more restlessness with the way things are causing people to hopefully reach out for the only alternative that solves the Calv/Arm dilemma.

(I ran into a James White (Calvinist?) of Alpha and Omega Ministries who was criticizing this guy and the whole conference. Never heard of him. He seems rather shall we say, cocky, do you know anything about him?)

Mmmmm…I’ll give you one guess :sunglasses:

Matt

Sorry, I’ve never heard of James White.

Yes, it would have to have a good, clear disclaimer that I wasn’t implying all Calvinists aren’t saved!

Yes, of course, a clear disclaimer would be necessary. I think the point of showing this testimony is to reveal how desperately we need, crave, desire and depend on both “sides” of our God which have been separated and isolated by Calvinism and Arminianism. Depending on your church you may never see much of the other side. For me, I never heard that God loved everyone, only the elect, and that of course put doubts in my mind whether He could love me. I could see how to finally hear the other side would feel like a conversion experience. I just wonder how long before the honeymoon’s over and he is starving to hear about His all powerful and sovereign Lord who is stronger than the “free-will” of man?

I was raised a practical calvinist (although I wasn’t aware of it), but ended up attending a very arminian church through high school, where I had one of my biggest “spiritual growth spurts”. I had problems with both positions, but I thankfully eventually found the resolution to those and many other dilemmas: Universalism. :smiley:

Our family (undercover) attends an Arminian Church that is heavily into the restoration/missional movement which makes for an awesome combination. We hear practically zippo about ECT, maybe one allusion to it in 6 months and then it was kind of shrouded and insulated with humor (just nuts isn’t it?) But we hear every week how Jesus died for all humanity and sometimes I forget that, ‘Oh yeah this is an Arminian church’ and I get faked out into thinking that they are confessing UR! Calvinism had drummed it into my head that “Jesus died for all” was equivalent to “all would be saved”. I say to myself over and over again why was I not at least an Arminian all these 30 years? (before UR 6 years ago) I would have saved myself so much emotional grief. But I suppose Arminianism has its equal bondage. It just seems like Calvinism is worse, at least it was for me.

I have personally seen people saved from bondage in Arminianism in converting to Calvinism. One of the reasons I became a universalist is because I’ve seen good conversions back and forth where the converters had important points to make in doing so, and really did come closer to Christ in doing so either way.

Some examples offhand of Arm to Calv benefits:

1.) A stronger trust in God’s competency and (in some ways) intentions to save sinners from sin.

2.) Relatedly, a deliverance from the frustration of trying to earn God’s salvation.

3.) A refocus on the sovereignty of God that often helps head off incipient pantheism or polytheism.

Of course, both positions have strengths and weaknesses. I’m just glad I don’t have to choose between them anymore, and can enjoy the strengths of both as they apply to universalism.

Yes, that was me coming to Calvinism at age 18. This “conversion testimony” was not lifting up Arminianism above Calvinism (although I get the feeling that a lot of folks around here might, as a second to UR :slight_smile: ) But it only highlights how desperately we need both aspects of God. Most of the time we go back and forth borrowing between them while never seeing the contradiction in this.

Jason, could you clarify further your number three? I sort of understand but would love for you to unpack that. thanks

Amen!

Philip,

It would take me a while to unpack it. But attempts by Arminians to explain how God could lose the salvation of sinners He intends to save, sometimes result in proposing a deity Who exists as an entity within and dependent on natural time (not merely as the Incarnate Son or some other manifestation but altogether), Who isn’t independently existent from time (and upon Whom spatio-temporal reality doesn’t depend for existence). It was this line of thinking that led to modern notions of emergent pantheism, but a type of Mormonistic deity (or set of deities) would be the other final theological result. (A fact Mormons have not been altogether slow to pick up and exploit for their own evangelism efforts among Southern Baptists, for example.)

There are some hardcore determinstic Calv lines of thought which end up effectively proposing pantheism, too, of course; and Arms are usually good about trying to avoid a result less than supernaturalistic theism, but converts to Calvinism often report feeling theologically reassured that they are now really worshiping the real final ultimate independent Fact (my terminology) of all reality, not some lesser lord or god which they were starting to feel like their local version of Arminianism was leading them toward (and which Arm theology broadly speaking might logically involve in any case!)

This is a standard apologetic (and even in some ways evangelical) critique of Calvs vs. Arms, as many of us well-know; and while Arms have standard replies to such critiques (some of which are themselves quite good), I do think Calvs have a legitimate theological complaint in principle here (even if they sometimes fumble the critique in practice). C. S. Lewis, whom I adore, preached and taught God’s highest independent reality in a rich and robust fashion–until it came time to explain how (even with the admission of post-mortem conversion) God could fail to save any sinners from sin. Then Lewis threw God’s competency under the bus, to save his belief in a final hopelessness for some sinners. When it came to this topic, he never stood his ground on his amazing arguments and insights regarding God’s supreme reality.

(Other Arminians, more consistently in this regard, teach that God just chooses to give up saving sinners from sin after a point even if technically He knows He could succeed if He kept going. This restores a doctrine of God’s sovereign competency and capabilities, but at other theological costs, as Lewis for example was well aware.)

Thanks Jason, that was fascinating. Your mind is stretching and sharpening mine as I read your posts around here! I bumped into a debate you put on Youtube that I bookmarked for later. Looks very intriguing.

I do understand what you are saying. Although I was pretty young, I remember when I finally “got it” , falling to my knees before the Sovereign Lord of the universe. His image grew exponentially before me as I saw Him as the one in control, not my feeble self-will. It was an incredible experience for our whole youth group actually. I do remember now some of the kids relaying their experience as a kind of “conversion”. Of course this brought a sense of security and relief at the beginning because after all I was worshipping Him and feeling His sovereign awesome big-ness! (BUT after a while as I began tripping up in my walk and also as I searched for assurance of my “election” doubts began to cloud the joy I had once felt. I also started processing the fact that most of the people I passed each day were not elect and were hopelessly lost. It caused untold torment and turmoil over the years.)

So I can see how the Arminian’s God becomes subject to his creation and not really above it. That’s a great point to include in the Arminian section of our Questions page.

In fact, Jason, would you be willing to place that argument in a simple question form? We are getting ready for a site that will concentrate on just the questions we have for the traditionalists both Calvs and Arms.
I’d like to hear how you would phrase that as a question. thanks

I’m not sure I understand what you’re asking for. I guess you mean asking Arminians, “Do you believe God is competent enough to save sinners from sin? And if not, why not?” “Do you believe God authoritatively changes His mind, after acting to save sinners from sin, not to save some sinners from sin after all, even though He is omnipotent and omniscient enough to accomplish this eventually if He chose to keep at it?”

Those would cover the two broad categories of Arminian I think. (In practice I’ve seen some Arminians flip back and forth between those positions–I recall I did, back when I was an Arminian!–but I know some Arms stick with one or the other position more consistently, not least in order to theologically distinguish themselves from the wrong kind of Arminian, i.e. the other kind! I took a lot of notice of that when I was growing up, too. :wink: )

Jason, sorry that was confusing because I was talking about your addressing the Arm view and then I asked for questions addressing both views. But, yes, any questions would be great that get either side to think through the logic of their view. But I was asking more specifically for you to form a question(s) that would uncover what you said in your point three above:

How would you phrase that as a question put to an Arminian to help them see that that is what they are doing/believing?

Thanks!
phillip