Interesting. Thanks for sharing that, Stewart. Have you had the chance to express your POV in the blogs where EO scholar David Bentley Hart responds to critiques of his NT translation, including that by N.T. wright here:
By that expression i just meant the body of eternal hell advocates - such as pastors, bible colleges & their students, etc - who are huge book (paper or electronic) purchasers, in this case specifically lexicons & the like. Everything from the relatively inexpensive & unscholarly, like Vine’s, Strong’s or Mounce’s (~$20) lexicons, to the more scholarly & expensive BDAG or LSJ (~$150). There’s lots of money to be made there. But who’s going to buy a lexicon written by a universalist with a universalist bias to it? Even if it’s only bias is regarding a few words - like aion, aionios, kolasis - that’s all it might take to be generally rejected by pro endless punishment advocates. https://www.logos.com/product/3878/a-greek-english-lexicon-of-the-new-testament-and-other-early-christian-literature-3rd-ed
Thank you for the reference & texts. From the English translation above it says “For the hope in Him is immortal and eternal life” which appears as a pointless redundancy to me. If life is immortal, then it is eternal, so there is no need to add that it is eternal. But perhaps a study of the context would debunk (or confirm) that viewpoint. The quote seems quite similar to Romans 2:7 of the New Testament. At the following post i suggest from the context of Romans 2 that aionios in verse 7 refers to a finite duration:
If you wish to comment on this, feel free to respond either in that thread or here or both.
Much of that entry, in particular biblical references, especially those that relate to the future of the lost, such as Mt.25:41,46, have been addressed in other threads on these forums, and which you are welcome to peruse & critique to your heart’s content, here or there, if you find there is anything worth your scholarly time to address. For a few examples, I’ve commented on some of the above referenced BDAG topics here:
John 3:36, 3:16, 1 Jn.1:2, Dan.12:2, aionios life:
Mt.25:46:
Mark 3:29:
This post is my response to a list of 19 NT passages that allegedly “define/describe αἰών and αἰώνιος” as being eternal, including 2 Cor.4:17-5:1 & others with aionios in them:
According to the ABP Greek-English Interlinear it is not “throughout” their generations, as you emphasize & appear to rely on for your interpretation, but EIS/unto (or, “into”) their generations. A significant difference which allows for aionios to be finite in Lev.6:18 & 10:9.
Moreover, if the NT teaches that such ordinances are abolished forever, then that also weighs against your POV. Though i understand that you do not interpret Scripture in this manner.
I’d have to see the passages you refer to, but don’t reference, in context to comment upon them. Regarding εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα i’d suggest from a verse remarked upon earlier in this thread, Exo.21:6, that it does not mean “forever” in that context, but merely (at most) for the duration of the finite mortal life of the servant:
New International Version
then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
Similarly, in Josephus in “The Wars of the Jews” book 6, it states that Jonathan was condemned to “αἰωνιος” imprisonment." According to TDNT, ed Kittel, author Sasse, Vol 1, p.168, on AIDIOS, Sasse remarks concerning Jude 6 “in everlasting chains” & "Cf. for this expression Jos.Bell.,6,434…“of the lifelong imprisonment of John…”, with “lifelong” being the Greek word aionios. That interpretation seems similar to that in the OT of a slave being his masters for olam, i.e. for life. Here is the Greek & an English translation:
If the preview isn’t available there, a search of these Greek words may find it as it did when i tried it:
Can you provide the Greek text, an English translation & some context?
BTW, regarding Philo:
“Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:”
" “It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful” (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
“It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct.”
" “It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful.” Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."
Lev.3:17 `A statute age-during to your generations in all your dwellings: any fat or any blood ye do not eat.’ (YLT)
17 An age-abiding statute to your generations, in all your dwellings,—none of the fat nor of the blood, shall ye eat. (Ro)
Christians don’t abide by such laws, believing in accord with the NT that they are abolished, hence not eternal, but temporary.
As for:
Isa.51:8 For, as if a garment, eating them is the moth, and, as if wool, eating them is the roach. Yet My righteousness for the eon shall come, and My salvation for the generation of generations (CLV)
So qaz… why have you ignored the answer I gave to your query HERE?
In response to Origen’s post HERE koine_lingua replied…
Even though on a strict literal basis some time-related bookends can apply to αἰώνιος the sense of… “permanence or the greatest amount of time possible” still works BECAUSE like us moderns the ancient’s were also able to apply QUALITITATIVE meanings to words beyond any strict, straight-jacketed, literal form.
This whole argument gets whacky BECAUSE ‘universalism’ per sé demands trying to defend a certain position (in this case Mt 25:46) via a less than adequate argument; I just think there is a better, logical and less torturing of the text way to the desired end, which I laid out HERE, to which absolutely no one responded; which might suggest either nobody got it or if they did cannot fault it… what say you qaz?
You’re right, no one responded to your previous comment, where you mention John 17:3, etc. That being said, I’ve actually addressed John 17:3 in relation to this issue in particular several times before, e.g. at length here.
In regard to the interpretation of Matthew 25:46 though, one very important thing that I mentioned in one of my more detailed linked posts is that Matthew 18:8 – which was taken over from its source text in the gospel of Mark – substitutes τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον (“the everlasting fire”) for Mark 9:43’s τὸ πῦρ τὸ ἄσβεστον (“the inextinguishable fire”).
Every indication suggests, however, that there’s no real change in meaning here, and that these function more or less as exact synonyms. But the real salient point here is that in so modifying Mark – which, it might be noted, doesn’t use this phrase “everlasting fire” anywhere in the gospel (only using the synonymous “inextinguishable fire”) – Matthew 18:8’s τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον’s can now connected with the other occurrences of this in Matthew, e.g. Matthew 25:41.
And this is important because it helps us understand Matthew 25:46 itself as doubly connected to both Matthew 25:41 and 25:34. More specifically, it helps us identity this “everlasting punishment” in 25:46 as the same punishment in Matthew 25:41 (and consequently that of Matthew 18:8 and Mark 9:43, too).
In other words, to the extent that “inextinguishable” itself points in a quantitative, or at least a clearly temporal direction, this weakens the argument that Matthew 25:46 might be seen in light of traditions like John 17:3 or this suggested abstract qualitative meaning. And, again, in my linked post here, I emphasized just how idiosyncratic things like John 17:3 are, and how difficult they are to correlate with other more traditional eschatological texts like Matthew 25:46. On this note, we can further see the “traditional” eschatological nature of Matthew 25:46 and 18:8 in light of several other considerations – e.g. when we look at other Jewish intertexts which (re)interpret Isaiah 66:24, like Judith 16:17. And incidentally, we might even be able to draw a connection between Matthew 25:46 and Isaiah 66:24, at least if Daniel 12:2 serves as somewhat of a “mediator” between these (in its use of דְּרָאוֹן, etc.).
Finally, it might also be added that Isaiah 66:24 is also related to Isaiah 34:10, which itself is to be directly connected with Revelation 14:10-11; 20:10, etc.
I’m not so sure on that… though as I noted in my comment regarding the quantitative aspect “I don’t discount it” and that in terms of the “temporal direction” and nature of that eschatological judgement on their horizon being pertinent to the DoJ of AD70, and as such Mt 25:46 has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the postmortem realities of universalism, ECT or annihilationism.
The destruction of that OC world was total and complete, qualitatively so, i.e., said destruction came in its fullness and NOTHING of any redemptive value from the OC age of death survived into the NC age of life.
Thus those that perished or those who survived experienced the fullness of either ruin or reward in that ‘end of the age’ period according to their heeding to Jesus’ words to get out of Dodge (Lk21:21).
Re: some of the destruction you talk about: it’s certainly possible, and perhaps even intrinsically probable, to see this in texts like Matthew 25:46. After all, annihilationism was the dominant eschatological view in a large amount of Jewish literature that was roughly contemporary with the New Testament.
But we can’t get annihilationism purely from aionios itself.
More importantly, when doing critical exegesis/philology/lexicography, it’s also dangerous to harmonize different texts; and this is especially true when it involves bringing the complex schemata of Revelation and/or Isaiah into the picture.
Also, to the extent that the NT gospels each serve as a sort of “repository” of different early Christian traditions, it can even be dangerous to harmonize these traditions with themselves – sometimes even when it’s material within the same gospel!
In any case, any number of complex scenarios are imaginable. It’s actually possible that, say, some material in Mark plays more in favor of eternal torment, while the same material in Matthew (slightly modified in places, e.g. where the qualifying statement in Mark 9:48 is omitted) is intended to suggest annihilationism.
But of course in either case, whether annihilation or eternal torment, both of these obviously play against universalism; and most importantly here, there’s no warrant for understanding aionios to suggest merely temporary eschatological punishment – whether temporary in effect or duration. (Annihilation is punishment that’s permanent in effect.)
Of course, as for some of the other things you hinted at, if you’re suggesting that the aforementioned texts/traditions in Matthew 25:31-46 should be identified in any way with what happened with the destruction of Jerusalem, I couldn’t disagree more. I certainly think Matthew 25:31-46 envisions a scenario that hasn’t take place yet (and, as a non-believer, that I don’t think will ever take place, for several reasons). But that’s a whole other discussion.
For those of you wanting Jason Pratt to weigh in - I think his contributions earlier in the thread already made the case contra KL .
Also, in one of the recent threads, there was a criticism of Jason’s dense writing style. Yes, I find I have to really concentrate to parse out his arguments, but - gosh - is concentration a bad thing? I have found that the time I spend in understanding what he has to say is more than amply rewarded. As I’ve said before, we are so fortunate to have him (and others too!) here to man the watchtower.
I think you’re better off reading Jason’s posts above and his responses to KL. Also, Ramelli (which I have not yet read).
From what I can gather, the word can be construed differently in context; also for me the doctrine mainly depends on the character of God, not in contested minutiae.
I don’t want to pull the conversation too far off track; but, in short, the earliest Christians (including Jesus himself, if the gospels are to be believed) thought that the event described in Matthew 25:31f., as well as associated events – that is, the eschatological coming of the Son of Man, the universal resurrection and final judgment, etc. – would all take place within the generation (Matthew 16:27-28, etc.). These cannot be identified with any events in the Jewish-Roman war, or anything like that.
If it’s the one on apokatastasis, you didn’t waste your money. It’s a helpful volume on the history of universalism, although not without problems.
If it’s the one specifically on aionios and aidios… well, I guess it’s also helpful in terms of compiling most early references to those terms all in one place; but her translations and general presentation are very sketchy.
That was me Dave. I appreciate Jason’s writings, but then I also appreciate other’s as well. From my viewpoint, this board is lucky and blessed to have all of it’s members. I don’t particularly believe in putting people on pedestals for the most part. I find that to be an argument of authority (loosely) and really looks more like cheer leading to me.
That said, Jason should be honored for his generosity towards paying the up front costs and maintenance of this forum. That, to me, is a much more praise-worthy type thing than his opinions on specific topics over that of others. I hope that Jason can come up with a good way for us to contribute, as I appreciate what he has done here.
The character of people matters much more to me than the position they hold.
That’s how many people see it. Did God expect everyone to have multiple PHD’s before they could know the truth? No, & Scripture makes that clear. The PHD’s of Jesus day, the Pharisees & scribes, largely missed the boat, while the unlearned disciples of Jesus had the truth revealed to them.
Almost no one here, if any, are competent enough to judge between your opinions & the Ramelli/Konstan book re aionios on matters of Koine Greek translations.
Furthermore, their views re the translation of aionios in eschatoligical contexts (e.g. Matthew 25) don’t represent - the - universalist position on the subject, since there is no such thing.
Some universalists would translate the word as “lasting” in all contexts of the NT, others prefer the rendering “eonian” or “onian” (see the url below), others have left the word “aionion” in their English versions (IOW they didn’t translate the word), while others use “age- during” (YLT) or “age-abiding” (Ro). Greek scholar N.T. Wright’s version has “of the age to come” (Mk.10:30), “of God’s coming age” (1 Jn.1:2) & likewise in some other passages.
Curiously while you nitpick re the Ramelli/Konstan rendering of aionios, you try to justify the self-contradictory translation “for ever and ever”.
Almost no one here, if any, are competent enough to judge between your opinions & Ramelli/Konstans book re aionios on matters of Koine Greek translations.
I think people do have an intuitive sense of what are likely and unlikely interpretations and translations, though.
Like if we look at something like Mark 10:30, and compare different translations of this – the universalist’s “in the Age to come, life of the/an Age [to come]” versus the traditional “everlasting life in the age to come” – I think even the most dogmatic universalist will have a nagging sense that the latter is far superior to the former. (Also, David Hart’s recent translation of this, “in the Age to come, the life of that Age,” is objectively wrong, in the sense that there is no “the” or “that” or whatever in the Greek of the latter clause. Wright mashes ἐν τῷ αἰῶνι τῷ ἐρχομένῳ ζωὴν αἰώνιον together into simply “the life of the age to come,” which is impossible too.)
You’ve basically repeated this over and over again – that the idea of “forever and ever” is self-contradictory. But to my knowledge you’ve still never answered as to why, if this is so nonsensical, it continues to be a common phrase (one which everyone understands) even in modern English.
I – along with everyone else I knew and still know – was certainly saying “forever and ever” from a young age, long before I even knew about Christianity or religion in the first place.