It’s pretty clear when it’s being used in a rare or unusual sense—like in Diodorus Siculus 17.112.2, in some of its Septuagint usage (especially when we can characterize it as a “mistranslation”), or in Romans 16:25.
I don’t think the word “αιωνιος” is used in “a rare or unusual sense” in Romans 16:25.
…κατα αποκαλυψιν μυστηριου χρονοις αιωνιοις σεσιγημενου.
according to the secret that was concealed for lasting times.
χρονοις αιωνιοις (lasting times). In our day we don’t say “for lasting times”; we say “for a long time.” Some translators render the expression “for long ages.”
Ah okay, I think I see the root of the confusion; I may have been ambiguous on one thing. The key phrase I said was “trying to incorporate its various uses into a single meaning.” My problem is with taking several different denotations and trying to blend them into a single cohesive definition, as it were. Now, at first, that may seem like an entirely logical move—after all, why not attempt to come up with a dynamic definition that accounts for 100% of a word’s uses?—but in the end actually only obfuscates things. (My emphasizing the use of aion as “spinal marrow” was intended to be an example of how difficult it would be in that case.)
It’s like how the adverb “forever” fundamentally means lasting permanently, even despite the fact that we regularly say “it took forever at the grocery store” or whatever. Now, in a good dictionary, under “forever” there will be a sub-entry for its idiomatic/hyperbolic usage. But it’s not going to change the primary definition; the hyperbolic usage is just an exaggerated form of the primary.
And again, this is very similar to what we find in the entry for aionios in the leading New Testament lexicon, BDAG: an extensive sub-entry with countless examples for the meaning “pert. to a period of unending duration, without end,” and then very short sub-entries for “pert. to a long period of time, long ago” and “pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal.” (You might also see the entry for aioniosin DGE, though I have some slight qualms with that.) But of course it’d be a mistake to look at all these and just settle for a sort of blended “pertaining to some period of time” as the fundamental definition of aionios, despite that the definitions of all the sub-entries contain this element.
And (as might be inferred) I also don’t think that something like “enduring throughout time” would suffice, either. That of course doesn’t mean that, if I made my own lexical entry for aionios, I wouldn’t have sub-entries, as BDAG and the other lexicons do. And in terms of this definition “lasting,” about the closest sub-entry that I’d have to this would be something like “constant, continuous,” but here including just a small handful of uses. Diodorus Siculus 17.112.2 would probably be the clearest one; and perhaps Jude 7, too—though with some caveats for this. (For one, unlike the Diodorus Siculus example, the use of aionios in the Jude passage isn’t incompatible with the meaning “permanent.” At minimum, perhaps we don’t know whether it signifies “constant and permanent” or just “constant” without permanence here.)
This suggests the key factor of whether the term should be treated as having a single denotation or not, isn’t linguistic. Rather, it should be treated as a having a single denotation (not multiple ones) only if the denotation weighs against a particular doctrine being true
I gotta admit, you kind of lost me starting with this section. I’ve read it two or three times now, and I just keep getting lost in the syntax. (In truth, I get lost in the syntax in other earlier parts, too, so apologies in advance if I missed your point or if I was redundant or something.) Skipping ahead a bit: I originally said “I don’t think BIblical readers could have ever reasonably been expected to hear about ‘permanent/everlasting punishment,’ but then to do complex exegetical connect-the-dots to somehow realize that God may bring this otherwise permanent punishment to an end,” and then you said
That’s all totally dependent on a very narrow single denotation of the adjective being true in practice (without regard to whether or not the noun has a single narrow denotation of meaning).
But I think it’s important to point out that the earliest Biblical readers didn’t consciously carry around the sophisticated, technical, artificial considerations that we think about when doing lexicography today—certainly not in the sense that they’d read a passage with a particular word and then think about all the other specific uses of the word throughout Biblical (and non-Biblical) literature and then carefully and analytically parse the full range of possibilities here.
That’s not to say that they were simple-minded. Quite the opposite. But in this specific instance, the overwhelming association of aionios with “permanent, everlasting” in particular would have been such an intuitive point for them—again, in light of how rare the exceptions to this are—that considering other meanings for this would have been highly counter-intuitive.
Now, it could be argued that if they started to think about the abstract concept of eschatological punishment and reward more broadly, that this would have led them to think about various traditions they knew about these things (some of which didn’t involve infinite or permanent punishment). Or perhaps they would simply think about God’s mercy or wrath more broadly, and maybe start thinking in more systematic theological terms. But by and large this starts to leave behind purely linguistic considerations in the first place. More importantly though, it’s really not how people read/heard the Biblical texts to begin with. (Though it might also be noted that hearing aionios itself in conjunction with punishment would call to mine prior traditions of genuinely permanent/everlasting eschatological punishment.)
To take another example, if they heard about “unforgivable sin” or whatever, they just thought about unforgivable sin—they didn’t think about all the ways that this passage/teaching might not mean what it appears to mean on the surface, etc. For some reason, here I think of a comment that Biblical scholar Marcus Bockmuehl made about the disputed word ἁρπαγμός in Philippians 2:6:
At the end of the day, it must be highly doubtful that Paul or his audience would have tied themselves in knots over this word even remotely as much as his interpreters have.
for what it’s worth, χρόνοι αἰώνιοι in Romans 16:25, etc., is almost certainly a Semitism, and in any case is probably functionally equivalent to χρόνοι αρχαίοι: see, for example, the parallel in 1 Cor. 2:7 (πρὸ τῶν αἰώνων), and in 2 Timothy 2:9 and Titus 1:2, πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων.
Or to put it another way, I don’t think that aionios here is even necessarily intended to refer to a long period of time going forward, but may be particularly indebted to a Hebrew/Semitic idiom that’s particularly oriented toward a period of time that extends backward to the past—which I why I suggested that χρόνοι αἰώνιοι here may be (idiosyncratically) functionally equivalent to “ancient times,” χρόνοι αρχαίοι. (You might also have a look at LXX Psalm 77:5 here, as well as my discussion of Habakkuk 3:6 for some somewhat relevant considerations, too.)
On second thought, though, I may have started the second part of that too strongly. I certainly think that the parallels with the other Pauline texts that I mentioned (2 Timothy 2:9 and Titus 1:2; 1 Corinthians 2:7) are compelling—and see also things like ἡμέραι αἰώνιαι in LXX Isaiah 63:11, etc.—though I looked into it a bit more and found some other parallels, too: e.g. εἰς χρόνον αἰώνιον in IGI 383. (In context, εἰς χρόνον ἀνέγραψεν αἰώνιον, viz. that the inscription has been “engraved to last forever,” or more literally, engraved for “everlasting time.”) There are also some related adverbial phrases using the noun aion itself, like ἐξ ἀπείρου αἰῶνος in Pseudo-Plutarch, or “from an infinite time [past].”
So I guess it comes down to whether you think the dative χρόνοις αἰωνίοις in Rom. 16:25 is equivalent to something like πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων, as in the other Pauline texts, or more like the other sense of, say, εἰς χρόνον αἰώνιον. (BDAG takes it in the sense of the former, too—though again it might not be quite so solid as I first thought.) In either case though, the meaning is either something like “for countless time” or “from time immemorial.” I think just “for a long time” does injustice to the force of the idiom, though. In any case, we need to acknowledge that the dative construction χρόνοις αἰωνίοις is unusual; and, well, that this is an unusual usage of aionios in general, too.
Do you think there’s evidence that those Pharisees who, once they believed in Christ (i.e. Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, Paul), maintained their once common tradition of “aidios timoria” in Sheol/Hades as an afterlife reality for unbelieving/unsaved/backsliding man?
Almost certainly so. If there was genuine continuity between the Pharisees in Josephus’ time and the Pharisees of the rabbinic period, then Jesus’ teachings on Gehenna in the New Testament are to be related to some of the more severe traditions about Gehenna and eternal punishment as we find them in the Mishnah and Talmud, etc.
It’s also worth noting that, despite the claims of those like Ramelli and Konstan, aidios timoria and the New Testament’s own kolasis aionios are perfect equivalents of each other. The idea that there was a natural distinction between how timoria and kolasis were understood and used in the Hellenistic era (and particularly by early Jews and Christians), or between aidios and aionios, is a total fiction.
In the sense of actual eternal torment, absolutely not. If “eternal punishment” meant annihilation… well, that’s obviously a bit less absurd (though IMO still problematic). But, really, the idea of a God who punishes people at all isn’t something I would accept.
I again, recapitulate that you indeed have given us reason to reconsider our positions though I must relay my and many individual Christian observations (not saying anyone here) that expose non-Torah adherent, Satanic, anti-Christ, occultic, NWO and Zionist concepts brought forth in the deeper literary format of the Talmud known in Jesus’ day as the “traditions of men that made the word of God none effect.” To me, this is a valid reason (not to the dismissal of other contrary evidences), not to trust in any of its prescriptons coming henceforth, and casts a dark shadow of doubt on using the consensus of the Talmud as a definitive authority for believing or not believing a doctrine. It is however useful for the historical testimony/record of Jesus’ existence.
the consensus of the Talmud as a definitive authority for believing or not believing a doctrine.
The funny thing is that one thing that you don’t often see in the Talmud is precisely “consensus.” It’s for the large part a compendium of different Jewish teachers disagreeing with eah other on matters of interpretation. And relevant to the current topic, you can find evidence for eternal torment, annihilationism, and universalism within it.
One of the ways in which the Talmud is most useful, though, is as a philological resource. A lot of important idioms and terminology used in the New Testament can also be found in the rabbinic texts, which can further elucidate their meaning.
In this regard there are a couple quotes that come to mind, one from the early Christian church father, Clement of Alexandria, and the other from Philo a contemporary to Christ:
“He uses the exact phraseology of Matthew, xxv:46, precisely as Christ used it. “It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful.” Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ.” http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/kolasis/
"We may further note that aiónios was used by first-century Jewish writers to describe those things that are of a limited duration. Philo used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:
“It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment(kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful” (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)." http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.ca/2015/01/eternal-or-eonian-part-five.html
“In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually” (Strom. 7.16).” https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2017/10/08/sometimes-eternity-aint-forever-aionios-and-the-universalist-hope/
Even in any Biblical instance where Divinely executed or ordered capital punishment occurs in a context with KOLASIS can we definitely conclude this was not intended by Love Omnipotent as a corrective measure for the offender, as in e.g. sending him to a place such as Hades described in Luke 16:19-31 where he is being instructed, taught of God, for his own good? Just as a parent chastens his child. Throughout Scripture we see the Creator’s harsh dealings with humanity are often stated to be for corrective or salvific purposes. Many scriptures show God’s punishments in this life are corrective & there’s nothing in the Bible saying that He suddenly changes His ways in that regard postmortem, e.g.:
1 Cor.5:4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal–surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.
Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)
Isaiah 12:1
Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.
Hosea 6:1
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.
Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.
18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Isa.45:24 The people will declare, “The LORD is the source of all my righteousness and strength.” And all who were angry with him will come to him and be ashamed.
And he that “comes to Him” shall find rest & He shall not cast out (Mt.11:28; Jn.6:37).
Isa.45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
I had never heard of the Greek-Spanish lexicon DGE, though I’m aware that there are those who consider BDAG to be the best lexicon.
As i see it BDAG’s aion & aionios entries are mainly just a bunch of selected references to ancient usages of the words plus its author/s biased opinions as to how the word should be defined. It seems likely the vast majority of its Christian readers (e.g. pastors) take such opinions on blind faith like BDAG is a substitute pontiff without ever having read, let alone studied, the cites themselves.
The citations themselves are a small selection that BDAG selected out from numerous ancient references to the words & as such have left out those that oppose the conclusions of BDAG, including several i’ve posted already in this thread from Deissman’s tablet, Philo, Origen & Chrysostom. Therein is the bias of pro endless punishment biased lexicons & scholars such as BDAG exposed. The question is did they omit such references out of being ignorant of them, or willfully in order to sell more books to their endless punishment buyers?
The BDAG second entry on aionios as “pert. to a period of time without beginning or end…Ro 16:26…Hb 9:14…” (p.33) is IMO probably wrong in light of there being a beginning to the “times aionion” since there was a ‘time’ “before times aionion” (2 Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2; cf 1 Cor.2:7, before the eons). Also, arguably, there will be an end of all aions & aionion periods as per 1 Cor.10:11 & Heb.9:26 according to these two posts at:https://www.christianforums.com/threads/for-the-lord-will-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038
Every other scholarly source & lexicon i consulted (of 10 in total) did not agree with & or opposed BDAG re aion being a personal entity Aeon in Eph.2:2; Col.1:26; Eph.3:9. So who’s wrong, the vast majority of scholars, lexicons & commentaries? Or BDAG?
Eminent lexicographer John A. L. Lee, in his book “A History of New Testament Lexicography” (2014), which has been well reviewed by his peers, points out many errors in BDAG & how lexicons have often blindly copied from one another, including their mistakes.
“Baldwin’s use of the lexicons as authoritative raises the question: Do the lexicons provide authoritative boundaries for the meaning and glosses of αὐθεντέω in the various contexts? Lee, Nida and Louw are agreed that the answer is ‘no’, not only for αὐθεντέω, but in general. Lee asserts, ‘The body of attestations accumulated in the lexicons has reached its greatest extent yet. But because of the ways it has been gathered there is an inherent unreliability’ (Lee, Lexicography, p. 124). Nida and Louw write: ‘We must not assume that the English glosses in a Greek–English lexicon can provide accurate information about the designative and associative meanings of a Greek term’ (Nida and Louw, Lexical Semantics, p. 59)” http://jgrchj.net/volume10/JGRChJ10-7_Westfall.pdf
"No one has drawn more attention to the methodological issues and, well, let’s face, flaws, in our New Testament Greek lexicons that John A. L. Lee. In a good summary statement of the state of affairs of our lexicons, Lee says “The concise, seemingly authoritative statement of meaning can, and often does, conceal many sins - indecision, compromise, imperfect knowledge, guesswork, and, above all, dependence on predecessors.”
“The first three chapters chronicle the three leading characteristics of the NT lexicographical tradition: reliance on predecessors, employment of the gloss method, and dependence on versions. Lee demonstrates how lexicographers in their choice of glosses frequently drew on the rendering of a given word in current translations and shows the chain of development from the KJV to Tyndale, from Tyndale to Luther, and from Luther via Erasmus to the Vulgate. He also points to the limitations of the gloss method and advocates a definition approach instead… Hence even BDAG (2000) is but the last in a series of works with a long, checkered pedigree that should now give way to new efforts…” http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/47/47-3/47-3-pp481-547_JETS.pdf
" Lee goes on to say that lexicographical work in Greek – especially the vocabulary of the LXX – is far from over not just in terms of demand, but in terms of accuracy. There is a huge amount of sources not yet incorporated into our understanding of Koine Greek. Undertaking exhaustive and integrative analysis of this body of language is therefore essential to interpreting Scripture rightly." https://williamaross.com/2015/02/16/lexicography-for-the-church/
“Recent studies have…demonstrated the inadequacies of many of the standard Greek lexicons, including Bauer & Dankers:”
The various meanings & synonyms of “permanence” & “permanent” are quite varied, including “lasting”, “indefinitely” remaining duration, etc:
"the state or quality of lasting or remaining unchanged indefinitely.
“the clarity and permanence of the dyes”
Examples of permanent in a Sentence
She made a permanent home in this country.
Prolonged exposure to the sun can cause permanent skin damage.
The museum’s permanent collection includes works of art from the 18th century.
The transcripts will serve as a permanent record of the proceedings.
per·ma·nent
ˈpərmənənt/Submit
adjective
1.
lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely.
“a permanent ban on the dumping of radioactive waste at sea”
synonyms: lasting, enduring, indefinite, continuing, perpetual, everlasting, eternal, abiding, constant, irreparable, irreversible, lifelong, indissoluble, indelible, standing, perennial, unending, endless, never-ending, immutable, undying, imperishable, indestructible, ineradicable, ineliminable;"
That is the pontificated opinion of the BDAG author/s of the aionios article. Proving their case is another matter altogether, is what is at issue, especially with regard to references such as Mt.25:46 & Dan.12:2, and something which BDAG has not even attempted to do. Listing references that allegedly support their position while excluding those that oppose it may be a good way of selling books to the target buyers who agree with that opinion, but is no way to present evidence objectively.
TDNT notes, after references to Plato & the meaning “eternal”, that in “later poetry and prose aionios is also used in the sense of “lifelong” and “enduring”, in accordance with the basic meaning of --> aion.” (vol 1, p.208). Also, unlike BDAG, TDNT notes that “the phrase in Phlm. 15…“that thou shouldest receive him for ever”…reminds us of the non-biblical usage…and of…“slave for life” in Dt.15:17” (p. 209).
Oh right, everything that disagrees with you is the product of a conspiracy, Nazis, or Satanists. (I also find it funny that you were the one who was originally going on about how all the best lexicons agree with you – but now all of a sudden you’re disavowing the exact ones that you were previously appealing to: “the authors of BDAG, LSJ, Vine’s, & TDNT lexicons, to name a few,” as you wrote.)
And just to establish a baseline of competence in reading Greek, can you tell me what this says?
I have to admit, though, that I misstated things in my earlier comment. I’m pretty sure what I meant to say was that DGE is a nice recent supplement to LSJ. It’s not actually a NT lexicon at all (unlike BDAG, obviously).
No, sir, it might as well be Ferengi, Klingon, or Romulan. Ultimately my faith in universalism isn’t based on the conclusions of ancient dead language scholars (universalists vs annihilationists vs ECTers), let alone their arguments based on Greek or Hebrew language nuances & such which i cannot comprehend & therefore makes them all the same as nonsense to me, but on the teaching of the Holy Spirit:
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 Jn.2:27)
Those are some reasons why your disputes with Ramelli are not going to be found convincing by Christian universalists & have been largely ignored on these forums. As someone once posted:
“The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian.”
Or similarly, For every Greek scholars’ opinion there is an equal & opposite opinion.
I’ll be waiting for an English translation.
Inasmuch as pro endless punishment biased lexicons admit that aionion can refer to & be defined as a duration that is finite, they are in agreement with me & opposed to the theory that the word has but one definition, namely “eternal”, and this is also always its meaning, except in the relatively few cases when it is used figuratively (e.g. in hyperbole), such as, for example, with the English word “forever”.
As an unbeliever i don’t expect you to believe in the existence of demons or Satan in influencing false teachings. But, as you may well be aware, Scripture clearly refers to such. It is not that rare IME to find Christians on forums telling me that universalism is a doctrine of demons, & i’m sure you can guess which doctrine i consider to be from that source. Which would glorify Love Omnipotent more, being characterized as a Saviour of all, or an eternal Nazi sadist.
Redundancy is used in Scripture, such as when Jesus often says “truly truly” or “amen amen”. Moreover, the same phrase as appears in Mk.10:30 is used in Lk.18:30. Soon after Luke also informs that those who attain to the resurrection out from the dead & the age to come will never die (Lk.20:35-36). If Lk.18:30 meant by aionion life an endless life, then Lk.20:35-36 would be redundant info when it tells us they never die.
Also if Jesus had merely said they would obtain life in the age to come, then it may have left it an open question as to whether or not the life would last for the entire age, or possibly just a part of it, something that could be a concern to His listeners (& the readers of the gospel of Mark) in light of Isa.65:20b “the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.” However when translated as, for example, “and in the age to come life age-lasting” (EDNT), it gives the impression that the life will be obtained throughout the entire coming age, and not be subject to the fate indicated in Isaiah 65:20b. Similarly “in the age that is coming, life age-abiding” (Rotherham). Compare:
in the age that is coming, life age-during" (YLT)
and in the coming age the Life of the Ages. (WEY)
and in the coming eon, life eonian (CLV)
Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart renders it in his translation of the New Testament as “…in the Age to come, the life of that Age” (Mk.10:30).
New Testament scholar N.T. Wright’s translation shortens it to “the life of the age to come”, leaving several words untranslated.
Then you have no actual rational basis for defending your beliefs here – only “they make me feel better and I like them more”; or, rather, “I like the opinions of [these scholars] more than [these scholars], even though they appear to be equally matched; and I have no competence to actually determine who has the better argument, other than how much it appeals to my personal emotional whims or not.”
I know there’s probably a nicer way to put it, so I’ll apologize in advance for how blunt that was. But even if there were a nicer way, it still wouldn’t change the facts of the matter here.
The problem is - atheism is soooooo boring. And I found it to be sooooo confining. I needed a bigger world than that.
Is that the ‘reason’ I’m a Christian believer? NO, but it’s icing on the cake.
I’m a Christian, thank God, because I’m rational, or come to think of it, maybe it’s the other way around? Yes I think it IS the other way around! I became a Christian out of need, and among the gifts given was the gift of rationality.
Life is difficult enough without someone trying to undermine someone else’s hope. Does hope really bother atheists so much? Why do they spend time trying to destroy it? What is the point of trying to destroy a life-enhancing dimension that can lead to the flourishing of human beings? I said CAN - people being who they are, we get it wrong often enough. Still, the slenderest knowledge of the most glorious things are worth more than the most exhaustive knowledge of the utterly mundane.
