The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Scientific Evidence For UR?

Thomas Talbott makes some very compelling arguments throughout The Inescapable Love Of God that our happiness (as well as God’s) is tied to the happiness of others and that eternal bliss is an impossibility with the knowledge that our loved ones are going to suffer forever.

I was watching Brain Games last night and followed that up with a chapter of TILOG and I think the two things go together. In the first Brain Games episode (available on Netflix), they explored the fairly new discovery of “mirror neurons”. There are neurons in the brain which fire not only when we experience pain or happiness ourselves, but also when we see someone else experience pain or happiness. In a very real sense, their pain is our pain, their joy is our joy. For more on this 1990s discovery, see brainfacts.org/brain-basics/ … r-neurons/

So not only is Talbott’s argument well-founded in scripture (if you have done it to the least of these, you have done it to me), and philosophically (you cannot love me without loving the people I love as well), but now we see that God has, in fact, made a hard-wire connection of our bodies to each other in a way we did not previously understand. This command to love even our enemies is not merely a moral platitude Jesus made up, it is a physical connection we cannot escape even if we wanted to, if we want to be happy ourselves. Somewhere down the line, we are all connected by love. We will continue to experience some degree of pain as long as those we love continue to experience pain. Our joy will not be complete until their joy is complete.

And that is also true of God. He has made us in His image. “Every pain we experience is therefore a pain that God experiences, and every torment we endure is a torment that God endures as well.” - Talbott, from “Completing The Sufferings Of Christ”.

Contrast this knowledge with the dark musings of Jonathan Edwards. Notice that he uses the term “sight” in the following passage, which is exactly the point of the mirror neuron discovery. When we see someone experience something, we experience it ourselves as they experience it, not in an opposite way, as Edwards argues. “Fourth, the sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. It will not only make them more sensible of the greatness and freeness of the grace of God in their happiness, but it will really make their happiness the greater, as it will make them more sensible of their own happiness. It will give them a more lively relish of it: it will make them prize it more. When they see others, who were of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, O it will make them sensible how happy they are. A sense of the opposite misery, in all cases, greatly increases the relish of any joy or pleasure.”

Awesome post, Eric!

It appears that everything, from common sense, to biblical exegesis, to the language of antiquity, to philosophical reasoning and scientific research, supports the conclusion that God will be “all in all”. :slight_smile:

Great post! Thx.

Now I’m just a tad confused. Not a new experience for me, of course… :smiley:

Does God the Father experience our feelings of hatred, of lust, of sensuous pleasure? Does the Lord Jesus? Does the Holy Spirit? Are they all just unhappy all the time, wrestling with those feelings? What about our feelings of temptation, or addiction, or pride, sloth, all sins venial and mortal?

I am not comforted by the thought of a God tossed around by the sinful emotions, the rage, the grasping, the uncertainties of 6 billion people. I read a sermon the other day in which the Pastor claimed that God had to become a man in order to know what it is like being a human being.

I really doubt that statement. There is no incompleteness in God, nothing He needs, no lack of knowledge, nothing that is still potential - He is ‘pure act’ as Aquinas and others have stated. Is He above feeling our pain - yes, I think He is above everything, at any time and anywhere. But the fact that He created us means of course that He knows what neurons are, and pain receptors, and the many types of suffering to which we are not immune. Knowing that He knows those things, but is not shaken by them but remains Wise, and Provident, and Loving - well, it is an anchor for our souls, one we would not have if He was susceptible to change.

So I reckon I would disagree with TT on this, but I have not personally read that section of his book for a long time.

I do not believe God needed to become a man to know what it was like to be a human. I would say rather that Jesus, Immanuel, God with us, demonstrates to us, through the incarnation, that God is truly with us, truly knows our suffering, more than we ever imagined. God is both transcendent, and immanent. “In him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28). “In Him all things together” Col (1:17).

Yes, I agree with you Caleb.

I don’t think God has to be “tossed around” by what we are tossed around by to feel it. God is perfect holiness, and cannot be tempted by sin, but God is perfect love, and empathizes perfectly(whatever that may be) with His creation. We have a ressponse to sin, so it may toss us around to relate to another’s sin, until we begin to be insulated by grace and then we can empathize with it without being tossed- as Jesus, our high priest. Every high preist is taken from among men so that he can empathize with their weaknesses, having been tempted in all manner like as those from whom he is selected.

Altho I don’t really have a solid opinion on it yet- having just concidered it LOL, I have no problem with God becoming on of His creation in order to feel what it is like. We are made in the image and likeness of God. We are curious, we learn, we grow through empathy- perhaps God does as well.