SDA Annihilationist says Universalism's God is unloving


#1

SDA = Seventh Day Adventist

The following discussion is from: https://www.christianforums.com/threads/an-argument-for-eternal-conscious-torment.8080333/page-8#post-73160685

Saving men into endless bliss is certainly infinitely more loving than annihilating them out of existence forever like an endless Hitler-like gas chamber.

Suffering is the fate of humanity in this world. God allows it. He allows evil, torments & tortures. Even though He could easily stop it all. Therefore it must be for a good purpose.

In the book of Job the man named Job suffers the loss of his family, wealth & health. We are told that God removed His protection from Job & gave Satan permission to destroy Job’s life. Thereafter He restored what Job had lost so that he had even more than before, both spiritually & materially.

[QUOTE=“mmksparbud, post: 73159925, member: 297518”]
Shades of the Spanish Inquisition—torture them until they recant and agree to their terms. That y0u call that love is not just ludicrous, but downright obscene. [/QUOTE]

Even - if - that were true, it would - still - be infinitely more loving than an endless annihilation Hitler-god. Do you not believe the Scriptures:

1 Cor.5:4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

2 Cor.12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

God’s anger being corrective: "Then you will say on that day, “I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.” (Is.12:1)

The judgement of God’s wrath corrects a sinner for his own good: “Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness.” (Micah 7:9)

Even those whom He punished & they have refused to repent God promises to eventually heal & restore: Isa.57:16 For I will not accuse you forever, nor will I always be angry; for then the spirit of man would grow weak before Me, with the breath of those I have made. Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him; I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart. 18 I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners

Hab.1:12b O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

Hosea 6:1 "Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9b)

Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles’ feathers, and his nails like birds’ claws.
34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him…
36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.

[QUOTE=“mmksparbud, post: 73159925, member: 297518”]
That anyone would rather die, permanently—cease to exist–the to be with God, you may find beyond comprehension —but Satan would rather do so and His followers also. [/QUOTE]

Irrelevant. God knows what’s best for them, namely being saved & living in endless bliss with Him. So even - if - anyone wished to be annihilated forever, Love would never grant such a wish. That would be unloving. Just as unloving as allowing a spoiled brat child to have her/his way in doing something that would cause his/her irreparable harm or death.

So does everyone until God works in their life.

Satan was in the presence of God. Read the book of Job.

God is patient. He has all eternity to wait for those in “hell” to repent. There are ages to come in which people can change their mind & turn to Love Omnipotent to receive His salvation in Christ. Until then they’ll reap what they’ve sown. They won’t know the peace, love or joy of God. They’ll be in torments.

[QUOTE=“mmksparbud, post: 73159925, member: 297518”]
If we choose to be without the protection of Jesus—there is nothing that can protect anyone from the fire light that is God. [/QUOTE]

Love Omnipotent will protect them. Just as He does now. For in Him we all live & move & have our being.

What would you call what is described in 1 Cor.5:4-5; 1 Tim.1:19-20? Or what happened to Job in the book of Job? Or the thorn in the flesh Paul received? Or God’s chastenings? Or being given to the tormentors till he pays (Mt.5 & 18)?

Mt.18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

Mt.5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

“They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing – which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they’ve been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages.” Why affirm belief in Hell?

Mal.3:2 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He will be like a refiner’s fire, like a launderer’s soap.
3 And He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver. Then they will present offerings to the LORD in righteousness

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

A loving parent doesn’t allow their 5 year old child to foolishly choose a path leading to his/her death.

But it’s okay with you if God coerces people to come to him by the tormenting painful fear of endless extermination out of existence? Is that what motivates endless annihilation believing people like Jehovah’s Witnesses & your SDA (Seventh Day Adventist) folks?

The fact is the wicked are already empty & in pain without being in union with their Maker. They are reaping what they’ve sown. How much more so when the things of this world they loved are removed from them in the afterlife?

In light of the above, i’d suggest you spend more time in the Bible & believing what it says instead of “what you want”.

“But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment [or annihilation] of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts.”


#2

God’s love is demonstrated in Christ’s incarnation, life, sufferings & death. That is His sacrificial love for the salvation of all. Then there is His tough love, as in rebukes, chastisement, punishment, wrath, judgement, imprisonment, anger, etc, also always for the good of created beings.

So what are you suggesting? God should be put in jail for removing His protection from Job & allowing Satan to destroy Job’s health? Or for fire bombing Sodom? Or sending a flood to drown to world, little children included? Or allowing countless torments & tortures every second of every day of every year?

So do you think God is evil for chaining evil spirits unto the day of judgement (Jude 1:6). Or casting beings into the lake of fire where they’ll be tormented “to/into the eons of the eons”? Or sending the wicked to Hades where they’re being tormented?

No one in their right mind wishes to be annihilated forever. The sane wish to live forever in endless blessedness. All of creation, even insects, fight for survival & not to die.

You’re comparing this with God casting the wicked into Hades & the lake of fire? Or are you suggesting that what God allows, & how He deals with, the church, His bride, is wrong, e.g.:

Heb.12:4 Not yet have you resisted unto blood, struggling against sin, 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as to sons: “My son, do not regard lightly the Lord’s discipline,nor faint being reproved by Him. 6 For the Lord disciplines whom He loves, and He scourges every son whom He receives.a 7 If you endure discipline, God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which they have all become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore indeed, we have had fathers of our flesh, correctors, and we respected them; and shall we not much more be in subjection to the Father of spirits and shall live? 10 For truly they were disciplining us for a few days, according to that seeming good to them; but He for our benefitting, in order to share His holiness. 11 And all discipline indeed for those being present, does not seem to be of joy, but of grief; but afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those having been trained by it.

Where does Scripture say God will “beat them into a submission”? Would that change their hearts? People’s own sins will torment them in “hell”. Like they do in this life.

Love Omnipotent has no need to be forever in pain or miss anyone forever. He is quite capable of bringing all to salvation & never giving up on anyone. His love doesn’t have an expiry date like a carton of milk. Neither does the blood of Jesus poured out for all. Nor is the Almighty too weak to save, as if the will & mind of man could overpower & outwit the All Knowing One for all eternity. Saving all into endless bliss is certainly infinitely more loving than annihilating them out of existence forever like your endless Hitler-like gas chamber SDA god. Yet you falsely accuse the Universalist God of the Holy Scriptures of being unloving.

Who ever said that God’s chastisements, wrath, punishments, etc, will make anyone happy? That would make no sense. But you do seem to have a problem with believing the Scriptures i posted regarding such things. Are all SDA’s of the same view as yours? I suggest you check with your leaders to see if they would approve of what you’ve been posting here.

Have you never read the OT with the lists of curses & blessings? Blessings to those who obey & curses to those who rebel? Or the punishments God brought on Israel time and time again to bring them to repentance & back to Him? My previous post to you was full of Scriptures showing the things God brought on people for their own good, to correct their souls. Are you rejecting Scripture in favor of your own human opinions?

Correct.

Why would it be selfish to force something good on someone, as opposed to annihilating them forever out of existence like an endless Hitler like gas chamber? Not that Love Omnipotent needs to force salvation on anyone, since it is impossible anyone would reject Him for eternity. BTW, does your SDA god force the saved to remain in heaven forever & not give them a free will choice to rebel like the angels in heaven did? Does he force & cause those who reject him to be annihilated against their will?

The impression i’ve gotten from some JW annihilationists is they are motivated by fear of being annihilated forever. Ideally, when people are perfected in love, fear of God’s judgement (e.g. hell) is cast out (1 John 4):

God is love, and the one abiding in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 In this, love has been perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment that, just as He is, also are we in this world.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment; and the one fearing has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

Please note also that perfect love is referred to in both verses 17 & 18.

If you are still fearing “hell”, you have not been “perfected in love” (1 Jn.4:17-19).

V.19 We love because He first loved us. Not because of a make-believe children’s bed time horror fantasy about being tortured in fire for eternity.

Are those who profess Christ merely out of fear, i.e. for “fire insurance”, even saved?

Do they serve the Scriptural God Who is love, or a false god of fear? Such as Ra, Allah, & Molech, who are inventions of Satan?

The Biblical kind of fear of God that a Christian should have is not a tormenting, paralyzing, destructive fear, but a reverential awe & respect:

“Definition: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, © reverence, respect.” https://biblehub.com/greek/5401.htm

Misbehaving children may find it difficult to be in the presence of their parents. That doesn’t lead good parents to throw them out into a dumpster to rot forever.

I pray you will one day accept the Love Omnipotent of the Scriptures instead of the SDA & JW horror flick Hitler god fantasy of him.


#3

I do not agree with your position. If our will is free and we are unhappy, how is forcing someone who wishes to be annihilated inferior to making them endure potentially infinite pain just because at some point they might change their mind and experience bliss?

Your concept is based on the ends justifying the means and that is quite open to debate as to whether that is morally upright.

All I am saying is that annihilation can easily be viewed as mercy. ECT on the other hand is demonic.


#4

Annihilation can only be viewed as mercy by someone who thinks the annihilated person will exist to benefit from annihilation after being annihilated. Annihilation of person X may be mercy to other people (perhaps), because they do continue existing after the annihilation of X, and so may benefit from the change in their condition by X’s removal from their condition. But it is no mercy to X – unless they aren’t really annihilated out of existence, only some characteristic of their existence being annihilated instead. And that annihilation might be any degree of temporary inconvenience to them, so…

(And anyway life isn’t primarily about happiness or bliss or pain or whatever; those are by-products following as consequences.)


#5

Never thought of it in that way - tres cool!!


#6

I think Bernard Williams would view annihilation as merciful.

What if some people (like me) just aren’t capable of eternal happiness?


#7

My position (universalism) does not allow for the possibility of any to “endure potentially infinite pain”. That would, however, apply to hopeful universalism.


#8

Man, kinda reminds me of when i was a kid and wanted oreos for dinner, then I became an adult and ate a whole pack of oreos. Oh how wrong I was :stuck_out_tongue: