The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Sin

Practices Christian Living
#1

Regardless of which Christian view you hold of the afterlife, you still have to deal with the here and now.

As a believer for a long time, if I am truly honest with myself, I may fit the bill for some of those. Perhaps not in life-style, but I am certainly guilty of those things both in the past, and I am sure of those in the present. Now, I hate the fact that I can see myself in some of those at times, but that doesn’t change the fact that I fall short.

Now, I have met some people who look at this list and say ‘Yep, I am clean’ and I am utterly astonished. Perhaps they have a very shallow view of sin? Yet, I have met many who say that they don’t really sin, or if they do, it is all mistaken sin. Just a ‘slip’ is what they say… They would NEVER disobey God the father, they love Him too much. Their definition of a slip is so ambiguous. Truly, does anyone maintain that they have never given into temptation since coming to Christ? That in and of itself is willful (to give into temptation). When tempted, you are presented with a choice; to obey God, or to disobey. There really is no such thing as a ‘slip’ when it comes to temptation. For temptation clearly implies wanting something that you know is wrong. Now, I am curious if perhaps somehow, people have deluded themselves into believing they never knowingly transgress God’s law and that it is all accidental. Truly does such a person (besides Christ) exist so as to never sin? Scripture seems to indicate otherwise, though I have heard the argument post Holy Spirit is when we can attain this perfect obedience.

That said, I also believe that if we don’t open up the possibility for a Christian to attain perfection through Christ, that we are limiting the power of God. To that, I do agree. However, If perfection is required to ‘reign with God’, there isn’t going many (or any?) of us that make it, myself included. Even Paul didn’t want to be ‘disqualified!’ and so he would ‘beat his body into submission’. It sure sounds like Paul took sin very seriously.

Anyhow, I mainly wanted to open this up for discussion. As the Bible has some very difficult passages when dealing with sin. Hebrews, 1st John 3:9 and many others which seem to indicate sin should be rather rare for a believer. Yeah, it might happen from time to time, but it is rare, or so the text would seem to indicate. 1st John is such a hotly debated book. Even the translators cannot agree on how to handle it. As far as I know there are now 5 different views on how to handle the book so that it doesn’t contradict itself while not violating some grammar rules.

I wanted to open this up to discussion. I don’t see sin talked about all that frequently with Universal Salvation. I don’t think it can be denied that many UR people seem to minimize sin. That, at least, has been my experience when reading. I also want to be careful to not suggest that people in UR live any differently than in ECT or AN. They all live the way, from what I have gathered. Both have the good and the bad, or maybe better stated as both have the bad and the worse… I am certainly no worse off for believing in UR. In fact, one major area of repentance in my life came when I believed in UR! But still, I rarely see sin addressed in UR circles. I think L Ray Smith was one of the few that maintained living Godly. But, I don’t want to be unfair to the rest… We all need the grace of God, that is for sure.

#2

:smiley:

#3

I think it depends on people’s views of what sin actually is. I have met people on the extreme ends of the spectrum.

One extreme position:
One Calvinist man and his wife and two friends were visiting our house (and I’m not suggesting that Calvinists in general hold to his view). He said, “I sin every day!” And the way he said it sounded as if he were proud of it. I tried to suggest to him that this was the very reason for Christ’s coming and His death and resurrection—to deliver us from sin. This made the man quite angry as he tried to explain to me that Christ’s death was to appease God so that he wouldn’t be punished for his sin because Christ was punished in his place.

The opposite extreme:
We visited a friend’s house, a friend who had invited some people from a group in which she was baptized. One woman in the group affirmed that she had not sinned for 40 years. I read the verse from 1 John which declared that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. The woman became quite angry and raged at me. Then I said, “You’re sinning right now!” She shouted that being angry is not sinning. She said she cannot help getting angry at the devil. My wife and I got up and began to leave. One of the young men in the group followed us to the door and shouted at us that we were going straight to hell.

#4

Gabe, I think it’s a process. First, it’s my understanding that “perfect” is usually better translated as “mature,” but I’m sure that varies from passage to passage. It seems to me that if we were to obtain to the moral perfection of God, we would be morally equal to Him, and as He is infinite, I don’t see that as even a possibility. Therefore, I believe that we will always and forever be growing and being conformed into the likeness of His Son. Now I DO take sin very seriously indeed – at least I take sin in myself very seriously (the sins I’m aware of at least). George MacDonald had the idea that we should read the word and do what it says (well, the new testament at least), and that seems to me a sensible approach. I think it’s also reasonable to take the culture we find ourselves in (including our familial and community culture) and do our best not to give offense insofar as we can reasonably do so and also not violate God’s word.

I’m getting some occupational therapy and the therapist wants me to color with big crayons in big coloring books. Since I’m an artist, I’m probably not doing this “right,” but really, I can’t. For a child to color the girl’s face light red or flat brown is fine and the child is not “missing the mark,” even if she’s going for local color by doing that. For an adult, it’s much more complex. For a caucasian it needs light red, some yellow, some orange, some brown, a little lavender and maybe even some blue in the deep shadows. For an adult attempting verisimilitude, nuance is huge and it’s very easy indeed to miss the mark (sin) and still be (in appearance) more “perfect” than the child’s attempt. Yet for the adult, it is “missing the mark” or “sin” if you get my meaning.

In the same way, a more mature follower of Jesus may appear not to be sinning, yet she may be sinning by not living up to her maturity level. For the brand new Christian, not continuing to engage in illicit sex may be a big step and Father would be very pleased indeed even with his partially unsuccessful attempts at obedience. Yet for a man who has been a Christian for decades, looking with lust (unresisted in his own mind) at a young woman may be a worse sin than for the new Christian to struggle with and eventually succumb to powerful temptation and physically engage in sexual relations with her. Furthermore, it may be as serious a sin for the mature Christian to resist Father’s promptings to give, as it would be for a fledgling to out and out steal. As more is given and more maturity attained, much more is also expected.

I can’t really think of anything I’ve done or not done today that I’m sure are sins. Some things I feel guilty for, but I think really that the guilt is lying to me and that it’s based in my cultural idea of what I should be doing for my husband in the morning as he prepares for work and on the other hand, what he actually wants me to do (or more to the point, doesn’t want me to do. :laughing: ) So I feel guilty for not doing this or that when in fact he prefers to do this or that for himself. :unamused: So idiosyncratically it would probably be more “sinful” for me to follow my own conscience and thereby do things he doesn’t actually want me to do for him.

Paul says in Romans 8, “All these who are being led by the Spirit of God, these and none but these are the sons (huios) of God.” I say sons here as opposed to the gender-inclusive “children” because huios, I’m told, refers to mature offspring who have reached the point of being recognized by the father as official representatives of the family (as opposed to teknon, who are children). So males and females can both be “sons” in this sense. We are to strive to reach the level of maturity at which we can be competent representatives of our Father, being fully trained in His ways. That’s the point of being conformed to the image of the one Son who HAS fully attained to that place as a human (though He was already by nature the divine and only begotten Son of the Father.) Now certainly a newly recognized huios can and should continue to grow in maturity. No mere human will ever reach the full and infinite conformity to Father that Jesus has reached, so there should never be a time that we don’t continue to grow into that image.

We should certainly reach the point where we no longer act rebelliously and I think we can come very close (by our standards) to reaching that nonrebellious state, even as unglorified humans. But if you take “sin” as “missing the mark,” then you could say that even a baby learning to walk misses the mark when he takes a wobbly step and falls on his little diapered behind. He isn’t being rebellious, but he isn’t yet quite getting “it” when it comes to becoming more like his parents. He has to keep trying. This isn’t the sort of “sin” that needs punishment of course, but it does need correcting if the little one is going to walk like his parents walk. We will always be learning how to walk like our Father walks, and we will always be getting closer to that ideal, but I don’t think it’s even a logical possibility that we should ever reach it.

Therefore, I guess it depends on how “sin” is defined, and on how much is expected of us at a given maturity level. I do think that as a practical matter all humans in bodies of dust will continue to sin (though we hope, less and less often until it becomes an extreme rarity rather than a daily occurrence) so long as we remain in our “bodies of death” as Paul referred to his own flesh. I hope that I haven’t “missed the mark” in my response. I think it’s a great topic to discuss and I’m looking forward to reading what everyone else has to say as well. :smiley:

Love, Cindy

#5

Paidion,

I just read your story. :laughing: What a mixed-up group of people on both sides! I’m glad you escaped the second without being physically attacked! Can you feel the flames licking about your heels still? :laughing:

#6

Some great responses, that said, I propose something else to put forward.

1st John 3:9 “One born of God cannot sin” is the term ‘practice’ justified in many of the translations? Why or why not?

When Jesus told the adulterous to “Go and sin no more” did he really mean what he said?

When Jesus healed the cripple and found him later in the temple “See, you have been made well! Go and sin no more, lest something worse come upon you” Did Jesus mean what he said there?

I myself am not even close to being able to claim such a thing. The Lord’s prayer “forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors” is very much a daily confession when contemplating my thought life. But, I also believe that all things are possible with God! To believe that such a thing isn’t possible, then truly is it impossible, for that person.

I am well aware of verses such as “There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins” and also* “for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”* and also “Dear children, I write this to you that you may not sin, but if anyone sins, we have a advocate with Jesus Christ” and we also have a proverbs* “Though a righteous man fall 7 times and rises again”* and “There is no one who does good, not even one” and when a disciple said* “Good teacher”* Jesus said* “Why do you call me good? Only God is good”. *So it would seem a mountain of evidence going against the idea of never sinning again. However, this was before the Holy Spirit was given to us, at least, with my limited understanding. Though, that always confused me. David says in Psalm 51 “Take not thy Holy Spirit from me” and so David had the Holy Spirit. But Jesus said to his disciples, before he ascended into heaven. “If I do not go, the helper (comforter in some versions, I think) will not come” and so I always read that to mean that the Holy Spirit was limited before Christ. But I am second guessing that lately as I read more in the scriptures.

Anyhow, I am genuinely curious how many of you interpret those scriptures and whether those are things you have wrestled with as well.

#7

Gabe,

I’m an ex-alcoholic and drug addict. I’ve struggled with fear and shame most of my life along with a little bit of anger. I try not to worry about scriptures too much anymore because it confuses me. I focus primarily on the seven deadly sins. I’m not struggling with lust anymore or greed. I am a little overweight and need to work out more. But I have cut down considerably on my food intake. It’s a little hard because I eat out three times a day. I am a little obsessive right now but not much. My main area right now is pride and ego. I started being a caregiver and it helps me get out of myself and keep me busy. It can be stressful at times but I seem to be handling it okay. I’m staying focused and interacting with people in my life well. So, all in all I’m doing fairly well. I can’t complain.

#8

Gabe,

I get caught up in it often, but I must come to see that that quick tempered criticism and power driven argument are not for me. When I stop arguing and trying to figure it out with my mind then faith arises and my ego deflates. The mind by nature tries to control and analyze instead of see and love. I’m going to follow Jesus and stop trying to defend and prove. Where love is there is bewilderment and confusion of my either/or mind. Truth deeper than reason begins to permeate my consciousness as Divine love takes hold of me.

#9

Good questions, Gabe. [tag]Paidion[/tag] or [tag]JasonPratt[/tag] would be most able to answer your question about 1 John 3:9 as to whether “practice” is a justified inclusion in this verse.

Here’s the Jonathan Mitchel NT version:

Personally I think I’d take the tack that Paul did in Romans 7, that if he continues to do the thing he hates it’s no longer he who’s doing it, but sin that dwells in him. Of course as he points out in another place, if we continue to sin we’ll be slaves to sin. It does matter what we allow our bodies to do and we should resist (and eventually conquer) the tyranny of the flesh.

Jesus told the adulteress, “Go and sin no more.” It was either good advice and encouragement to do her best, or it was perhaps an empowering commandment like “Light, BE.” When Jesus told the leper to “be cleansed,” He wasn’t asking for an act of will on the leper’s part. He was imparting something – the ability to be clean from leprosy. Maybe He was doing the same thing for the adulteress here? In this case also, I think it’s reasonable to suppose that (considering the circumstances), Jesus was specifically referring to her adultery as opposed to sin in general. Not that other sins would be acceptable – I just don’t think that was what he was referring to when He gave her this command.

Usually we don’t see Jesus intimating that sin is the cause of a person’s illness. For example, He didn’t tell the leper above to “go and sin no more,” so I suspect this particular crippled man at the pool of Bethesda had committed some particular sin (of which he was probably well aware) and Jesus was pointing out, “Yes – you’re right to suspect that sin was the cause of your illness. Don’t do that again.” Not only that, but the former cripple had just betrayed Jesus to the priests or the Pharisees – I don’t remember which it was – (or else he was really a dupe). They told him, “It’s the Sabbath. It’s not lawful for you to carry your bed.” And he said, The man who told me rise up and walk – it was he who told me to pick up my bed and go home," but he didn’t know it was Jesus who had healed him because Jesus had slipped away into the crowd. Instead of taking responsibility for carrying the bed, this guy whines, “But HE TOLD ME TO!” Then when he sees Jesus again, Jesus says to him, “See, you’re healed. Sin no more lest a worse thing befall you.” So what does he do? He runs straight off to the authorities and says, “It was Jesus! Jesus told me that!” So after that the Jews sought to stone Jesus for healing on the Sabbath.

But I’m getting off track here. Do you have some besetting sin that you’re struggling with or is this more of a general question? I don’t want you to confess to me (especially on the internet), but if you ARE concerned about this because you’re fighting a battle and not doing as well as you’d like, I urge you to find a brother in Christ, someone local preferably, to help you. We aren’t meant to deal with these things on our own. I’m sure this is one reason Paul urged us to confess our sins one to another and pray for one another that we might be healed. (I wonder if he was talking about healing from an illness or from the bondage to the sin itself?)

If this is an academic question, then I’d say that of course Jesus commands us not to sin, and that’s exactly what He expects us to do. He understands that we’ll struggle and that we’ll fail and that we’ll come back to Him feeling down and sheepishly asking forgiveness. That’s okay, so long as we continue to run the race. Your piano teacher wants you to play that sonata with perfect technique and full of life, but she doesn’t expect you to do it the first time through or even the fifth. What she DOES expect is that you’ll give it your full effort and not give up until you can play it as well as you’re capable of playing it.

Of course it’s possible that you’re condemning yourself for things that aren’t sins (like my earlier example above). You mention your thought life. Bad thoughts will come into your head and you probably can’t do much to stop that. You can however dismiss those thoughts as soon as you catch yourself thinking them, and banish them. There are all sorts of ways to do this. I find scripture memorization is helpful because then you always have something handy to meditate on (thus displacing those unwanted thoughts). Other things that can help are exercise, working hard through the day so that you’re able to sleep at night, avoiding entertainment that creates undesirable thoughts and images in your mind (including movies, music, video games, internet, and even friends – at least friends in questionable situations who insist on talking about questionable subjects), and of course laying the burden down at the cross and trusting Jesus to continue to set you free from it.

The view on the Holy Spirit that I’ve heard from the pulpit is that the Spirit was upon the prophets and kings and judges in the Old Testament, and within believers today, who are not only baptized with the Spirit, but also filled with that living water that keeps bubbling up into age-during life. The judges, prophets and kings, according to this teaching, had the Spirit as needed rather than on a continuous basis. I haven’t personally made a study of this, so it’s entirely possible that’s mistaken. Still:

The infilling of the Spirit is a continuous thing, like eating and drinking. We need to imbibe the Spirit of God as constantly as we breathe. If we do that, I think we’ll also find it easier and more natural to eschew sins of commission and to also DO those positive things we’re commanded to do.

In this life we will always stumble from time to time and we’ll always need forgiveness and restoration. Those times can and should become rarer and rarer as we’re conformed to the image of Christ. But no, I think the ladies who insist they haven’t sinned for 42 years and 3 weeks and 4 days are quite frankly, full of it. :wink:

Love, Cindy

#10

Hey Gabe

Witchcraft, adultery, murder and whoredom (whatever that means) are still on my list of bad things to do. I guess witchcraft would be kind of hard these days (where does one get eye of frog and leg of toad and all the other stuff you need to make them spells?), but adultery would mess up my marriage to my lovely wife, whom I love very much, and whoredom sounds too medieval. And murder is just wrong.

But all those other sins? Oh yeah, count me in. And any alleged Christian who doesn’t tick at least one - or more - of those bad boy boxes is, in my considered opinion, full of shit. Ain’t no man righteous, no not one. We will never be righteous, not as long as we inhabit this deceitful skin.

Take care my friend

Johnny

#11

Great responses. To answer the question of besetting sin. Well, the problem with besetting is the definition itself is ambiguous. This is precisely the reason I would count myself among the works of the flesh, it isn’t because I am a slave to them, where I have to do their bidding, but I do find myself, occasionally doing those things. I agree that we cannot condemn ourselves for our thought-life. That said, it is hard not to ask yourself “Where did that come from?” or to even say “Wow, that thought felt kind of good, but I know it is wrong, so I will reject it” but that still doesn’t stop one from assessing the situation. Where did the desire come from? Why did I enjoy it? One has to wonder if they are not double minded as James mentions. No, I am merely interested to know or understand how one can desire to obey Christ, yet still fall to temptation. To me, that is an act of rebellion. Why do we sometimes do it? Has anyone reach a point where they never fall to temptation?

Romans actually doesn’t clarify much at all for me. On the one sense it basically says our sin nature was eradicated and that we have a lack of experiencing that because our faith is weak. But others say, no, the sinful nature is still in us, but we are just ‘count’ or ‘consider’ it ‘dead’. At first, I believe that Christ removed the sin nature from us, and it was up to us in faith to believe that was the case. But upon further reflection of Roman 8, we actually do have that nature still acting in us. Otherwise, there would be no need to warn people “To live after the spirit is life” and “To live after the flesh is death” and of course, he warns us accordingly and admonishes us to strive after the spirit.

#12

“Practice” does not occur in 1 John 3:9 as a Greek verb. However, the present indicative in Greek is continuous more often than not. So some translators have employed “practice” to bring out this aspect. Here is my personal interlinear English for each Greek word and my translation:

πας— ὁ —γεγεννημενος—————— ἐκ—— του θεος ἁμαρτιαν οὐ ποιει ——ὁτι—— σπερμα αὐτου ἐν αὐτω μενει— και οὐ δυναται ἁμαρτανειν ὁτι ἐκ
Each the having been generated out of the God— sin——— not is doing because seed of him— in him remains and not is able to sin because out of

του θεου——γεγεννηται
the God he has been generated

Everyone who has been generated [begotten] of God is not doing [making] sin because His seed remains in him and he is not able to sin [continuously] because he has been generated [begotten] of God.

Another interpretation is that His seed (Christ) remains in him, and He (Christ) cannot sin because He has been begotten of God before all ages (the only-begotten Son of God)

#13

:laughing: See there? You’ve answered your own question. I think it’s really about growing beyond that beast/flesh nature. You could even call it an evolution of sorts if you like. So these thoughts come to you and you perhaps enjoy them in the flesh, but you don’t enjoy them in the spirit and maybe your mind even despises them on reflection. We have to wait for the adoption, the redemption of our bodies at the resurrection, to be utterly free, but we CAN strengthen our spirits (which want to be pure) and renew our minds by the washing of the water of the word/Word of God, and so overpower our beast nature. It takes time, and honestly, it helps just to be old because then the flesh is automatically weakened. :unamused:

Love, Cindy

#14

Gabe,

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#15

Gabe,

Let me give you an example. If you are like me then you have battled lust. The thing that lured me into the sin of lust is the pleasure it promised. So, one way to battle lust is faith in a promise of superior pleasure - the pure in heart shall see God. Then do something else to take your mind off of it. Sweep a room, hammer a nail, write a letter, etc. It will eventually go away. Resist the devil and he will flee. Say a prayer. Something like:

Father, may the fire of Your love burn away all lust in my soul. Remind me on a daily basis that I am loved by You. May Your grace reveal to me the beauty of holiness. May it become so beautiful that I am drawn to You in a Holy Union. May Your glory satisfy my heart and strip away the fleeting pleasures of lust.

It’s difficult at first but it gets better over time.

#16

Gabe,

Here’s one more:

In dealing with my bitterness against those who have wronged me I like to do what Jesus did. He kept entrusting to Him who judges justly. - 1 Peter 2:22-23 (the word “himself” isn’t in the original). We are to leave room for God’s wrath for vengeance belongs to Him. My faith is in God to handle all wrongs done to me. As I turn it over to God and trust Him, bitterness is released and I’m free to love others by forgiving and letting go of my anger. I don’t have to trust the wrong doer but in trusting God and forgiving I find peace. I will be loving the way Jesus did as I entrust to Him who judges justly.

#17

Chrisguy,

Don’t condemn Cindy for finding humor in something that truly is ridiculous on multiple levels. Your comment reveals a judgement that I don’t see justified in light of the kindness and love Cindy shows for many. To call into question her being a Christian and her having love for others is not your place based upon one general post. Also in reply to your idea that God would never smile at rage, look at Psalm 2 (or are you someone that doesn’t believe in Scripture?) Nations raging, God laughing. Do you really think God looks down on humanity throwing a temper tantrum and feels pity? I personally know its hard not to laugh when a child is being childish about not getting their way. The absurdity of it of course gives way to a need for discipline and resistance to it. So God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

Also dealing with sin, it is not our own ability that makes us righteous, our dependence is to be totally upon Jesus Christ. Trusting in Him, believing that He is able to deliver us. Also loving the Spirit and letting Him live through us is crucial to walking by Him. He makes us holy, He puts to death the deeds of the body, so I would say He is very important when it comes living a righteous life. Also a huge key for me was no longer putting any “confidence in the flesh”, meaning I renounced my ability to not only do bad things but even trusting my own goodness. Many times we see the evil of our flesh as the hindrance, but we’re trying to keep the “goodness” of our flesh. The two parts of the flesh (good and evil) must be taken to the cross. Remember the Galatian’s problem was not that they were simply sinning, they were trying to perfect in the flesh what was begun in the Spirit, meaning their fleshliness had some semblance of good. Yet nothing can remain of the old man, all must be yielded up to God, and we must totally live by faith in the Son of God (faith here meaning confidence and trust in, as well as reliance upon, God)

#18

Sorry for the ping delay. As usual, I agree with Paidion’s textual comment.

I also like his alternative interpretative grammatic suggestion that Christ in us is Who does not sin and so Who leads us into not sinning by His presence.

This does lead into an interesting corner for trinitarians like myself (possibly for other types of Christians, too), since no Person should be operating apart from the other Persons, and the scriptures say (both Sts. Paul and John in different ways, for example) that the Holy Spirit helps everyone (and convicts and judges everyone) in regard to right and wrong even if they aren’t Christian yet. (Paul in Romans 2 for example says the Holy Spirit will even defend those who don’t know the Law as well as accuse them of sinning against what they themselves have heard from the Spirit, before the judgment seat of Christ. Non-universalists tend to ignore the “defend” part unless, like Lewis who knew about it, they accept post-mortem salvation.)

Another way of putting it is that God (whichever Person(s) one thinks best to acknowledge as such) is omnipresently in the human heart (soul) already, which is connected to God being able omnisciently to see what is in every human soul already; so accepting God into our heart doesn’t mean He wasn’t already there, and it doesn’t even mean we aren’t cooperating with God in some ways yet (which He accepts), just that we aren’t cooperating with God in a particular way (or perhaps in some particular ways) yet which is important and something God is working to bring about in us.

Not sure if that helps any, but I’m in a bit of a rush this morning, sorry. :slight_smile:

(Note: I think Chrisguy’s complaint is along the line that we shouldn’t be dismissive about those people Paidion was talking about, because they need help instead of being dismissed, and he’s worried the laughter is one of mere dismissal. I could be wrong, but that’s my guess. I know Cindy well, Chris, and I feel fairly sure she was “praying to Father” for their sake while on the other hand not holding hatred in her heart but rather pity for them. Her amusement at their behavior was a positive expression of her not hating them as enemies despite their animosity toward Paidion.)

#19

I shouldn’t have reacted the way I did towards Cindy. I know she’s a very kind hearted person (much more so than myself). I was in a rather upset mood when I posted this and lashed out at the first thing that I could find. If it’s all the same to everyone else, I’d be fine if a moderator deleted the post altogether.

#20

Hey Jason,

I like that Idea that Christ is omnipresent within the human heart. It’s in removing the obstacles that are in my mind and heart that I find Christ within. I think this is what the Gospel is for. When my mind and heart are at peace the illusions of my unreasonable fears melt away. It is here that I am united to Christ while the world is torn with hate and violence. This is where I see the love of Christ within which motivates me to extend this love to others.