The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Slice of Pi, Anyone?

Studies Film, Movie & Video Clips
#1

So, I was just wondering whether anyone was planning on seeing the movie, “Life of Pi”? I’ve heard that it’s a visually stunning film.

I also know that it’s main character advocates an interesting pluralistic religious worldview. I was re-reading some of the book that the movie was based on recently, and realized that my own religious views have changed somewhat since I originally purchased it. Back then, I merely dismissed such religious pluralism as hokum. Even now, I feel that religious pluralists do not give sufficient attention to the “Irreconcilable differences” that distinguish one religion from another.

Be that as it may, having come to a place of advocating Christian Universalism, I now find myself wondering about other forms of universalism. Should they be seen as a generally positive step away from religious exclusivism? Or perhaps they only serve to confuse an already overly confused world, and thereby keep people from reaching the truth? I can see both ways, to some extent. I find myself with a lot of questions on this one.

Anyone have any thoughts?

#2

Hi Proto -

Here’s a typology of models of different Christian reponses to other religions that I thought you might find useful. It was developed by Paul Knitter, I understand -

  1. ‘The Replacement Model.’ which argues that there is no value in other religions (or that all other religions are demonically inspired) and that it is God’s will that Christianity replace all other religions. This is the fundamentalist position.
  2. ‘The Fulfilment model’ which argues that God is present in other religions. However, Jesus will enhance those religions and provide fuller revelation of what people of other faiths already know in some fashion (a view which has its roots in the Logos doctrine as taught by Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Justin Martyr and others in the Early Church).
  3. ‘The Mutuality Model.’ which argues that persons of any faith, including Christianity, can benefit from knowledge of other religions. This model promotes interreligious dialogues in the service of promoting interreligious understanding.
  4. ‘The Pluralist Model which argues that all religions are legitimate spiritual paths to the One God.

Is this helpful? :confused:

Blessings and warm welcome to you -

Dick

#3

I saw the movie. It was very good. I fit with the second category Dick just posted. Maybe a cross with number 3 but with Christ being the fulfillment of all religious pursuit. He is the one they were seeing just not very clearly.

Anyway the whole story is built around myth,and Dick I thought it was an interesting look at what we had discussed on the “cannot find history through facts” thread.

Very interesting. The last two movies I see are this and cloud atlas which also speaks to this same topic along with the non violent atonement model like Ravi Holy speaks of.

I would highly recommend cloud atlas also.

#4

This movie is taking a lot of flack from atheists (and from theists) for presenting belief in God as being an explicit wish-fulfillment choice: if you don’t like the facts, change them around ‘mythically’ to something you like better. (Which would also fit the protagonist’s tendency to select whatever he likes from three very different religions and then call himself a believer in all three.)

I suspect the author may have intended to illustrate that atheists have it just the same way around in the other direction: on hearing the story, the journalist is too sceptical so Pi provides him another story he’ll find more believable which the journalist is willing to accept because then he won’t have to believe in God.

Either way, it sounds rather insulting to proponents–but if the movie follows the book (as I’ve heard reported) by giving its only corroborating evidence in favor of the horribly tragic story, then it’s rather more insulting to both sides by denigrating theism as being definitely wish-fulfillment against inconvenient facts, and denigrating atheists as using facts pointing in their direction only for their own wish-fulfillments!

Consequently, I’m unsure whether to bother watching it. I can enjoy a great (and by all accounts wonderfully artistic visual) fantasy without trying to draw metaphysical morals from it, but if the film cheats by radically undercutting 95% of its narrative for an ugly truth (within the narrative of the movie), daring us to hold preferentially onto the fantasy as a preferred truth (of what happens in the narrative), then frankly I’d rather be watching Ang Lee’s Hulk or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, or watching or doing any of a near infinite number of other things.

#5

I’ve not seen the film and i haven’t read the book.

#6

I’m one of those where when I watch a film, I watch for entertainment like anyone else, but I also try to listen for ways in which God may speak to me through it. You’d surprised how often that happens. :slight_smile:
If you wanted to, Chris, you could check out my thread that I started awhile back, called The Gospel According To The Movies, here: evangelicaluniversalist.com/foru … ies#p47012
Anyways, I’ll definitely give Life of Pi a look sometime. :wink:

And Jason, though you may be right (I couldn’t say any different, as I haven’t seen the movie or read the book), I’m sure that you could find something good in it. :slight_smile:
There are glimmers of light and truth in literature, music, and film… we just gotta keep our eyes and ears and hearts open for it… could be just one scene or one piece of dialogue, but hey, that’d be something. :slight_smile:

By the way, I thought Hulk was kind of lame (the new one was better, IMO), but Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was awesome :slight_smile:

PS Why do we have a ten smiley limit now? :neutral_face:

#7

Thank you for sharing those models Sobornost, they are indeed helpful.

I reckon I’ll probably go to see this movie sometime soon, and will likely have more things to say about it afterwards.

In the meantime, I still find myself wondering about the degree(s) of receptivity on the part of the general population to Christian Universalism vs. other types of universalism. Do you guys think that the greater sympathy for universalism(s) in general is a positive trend for society? Or might it be more indicative of an unfortunate tendency towards laziness/sloppiness in our collective thinking?

Like Jason said,

Nevermind the fundamental incompatibility of the core tenets of these particular three faiths, just take whatever suits your current whims and ditch the rest! It’s not like it’s a big deal or anything, right? Right?

I dunno. It’s like I said before, I have mixed feelings on this one. In any case, I certainly appreciate everyone’s input. Also, thank you edwardtulane82 for the link to that movies thread you pointed out! Lots of good stuff on there, reminded me of a few things I’ve wanted to see for a while.

#8

HI Proto :slight_smile: -

When you say ‘other types of Universalism’ are you referring to Unitarian Universalism?

#9

Hi Proto :slight_smile: –

I feel a bit uneasy here – but have to say that like Jeremy (redhotmagma) I’d place myself as operating within a Fulfilment model regarding Christianity and other faiths, and I think religious dialogue is essential and does not entail compromising my faith (or at least it does not have to entail this). The reason why I feel uneasy is that I’m not sure that this is a mainstream perspective on this site, and I really have no wish to give offence.

Although there is much stuff written about any type of universalism – including evangelical universalism – being a species of postmodern relativism, loss of nerve, and a compromise too far –this is not my view. But the arguments either way are very nuanced and complex; and a wide range of views are held between the extremes of exclusivism and pick and mix pluralism.
As far as I am aware there are only two religions with a strong stand of exclusivism and supercessionism running through them – namely Christianity and Islam (Judaism is exclusivist concerning God’s covenant with Israel given to Moses but inclusivist in terms of God’s general covenant with Noah for all peoples). That there is a revival of the universalist traditions in Christianity - and indeed in Islam - at the moment, stems in part from the pressures of living in a pluralistic world with people of one religious faith coming into close contact and making friendships with people of other faiths (and of no particular faith); and thus not being able to consign them to the dustbin of hell in heart or in mind. This seems to me to be all to the good.

However, universalism in terms of pick and mix syncretism does not seem promising to me. This generally ends up as a medley of watered down pantheism, ethical hedonism, and the avoidance of tricky issues (like having to struggle with the demanding bits and even the seemingly ugly bits of a specific tradition that).

Regarding religious dialogue – I think the impulse to reach out to the ‘other’, to try and understand people who are different, to have an accurate appraisal of their beliefs and practices, and to take care not to bear false witness against them by comparing the best of Christian tradition with the worst of their tradition is salutary. The great commission always needs to go hand in hand with the great command to Love – and loving must mean a genuine attempt at a growth n understanding, as well as being honest about real differences (I am grateful to Steve Bell for this insight via Rev Drew).
Er – that’s all I really want to say for the time being – but I hope it’s useful – just to clarify one perspective.
Blessings

Dick

#10

Thank you for your perspectives on these issues Sobornost, they are most helpful.

And do not worry about me, at least; I do not take offense. I appreciate your sharing!

-Chris

#11

Merry Christmas Chris :slight_smile: - and Jeremy :slight_smile: if you are reading -

‘Offense’ was a strong word. I just know that when I get into disucssion about theology of religions here it has been known to get far too exiciting for me :laughing: I do operate on a ‘fulfillment model’ (I think) but I admit the whole subject is very convoluted and needs great discernment ( the film sounds like it may be glib and a bit simplisitc). I think the most interesting comments will always come from people who live and work in commnities where they have to form relationships with people from other faiths - it’s not so good if the conversation is purely theoretical (although the huge diversity within different religions needs to be accounted for in any informed discussion - some forms of every rleigion can be very, very bad - others can relatively benign and gracious)

Rest you merry

Dick :slight_smile:

#12

An afterthought –

The thing about religion – including historic Christianity - is that we have to ask how much is cultural and how much is revelation. This is what the Gospel looked like in the early church in China in the sixth century

So God caused the Cool Breeze to come upon a chosen young woman called Mo Yan, who had no husband, and she became pregnant. The whole world saw this, and understood what God had wrought. The power of God is such that it can create a bodily spirit and lead to the clear, pure path of compassion. Moyan gave birth to Ye Su, which is the Messiah and whose father is the Cool Breeze. Some people claimed they could not understand how this was possible, and said that if the Cool Breeze had made Mo Yan conceive, then such a child must have been created at the bottom of the world…

The Messiah gave up his body to the wicked ones for the sake of all living beings. Through this the whole world knows that all life is as precarious as a candle flame. In his compassion he gave up his life…

The highest skies are in love with You.
The great earth opens its palms in peace
Our truest being is anchored in your purity
You are Compassionate Father of the Three

Everything praises you, sounding its true note
All the Enlightened chant praises –
Every being takes its refuge in you
And the light of Your Holy Compassion frees us all

Today I reflect on Your Compassion and Grace
I delight in Your Delight which covers our land
Messiah, Great Holy Son of the honoured One
As countless of the Suffering are saved

Everything looks to you without thinking
Shower us with Your Healing Rain
Help us t overcome, give life to what has withered,
And water the roots of kindness in us.

Blessings

Dick