The Evangelical Universalist Forum

So what got you here?

Anybody interested in sharing how they came around to walking the EU path?

As for me, I grew up a Nazarene kid in a good, healthy church, but I was always a little edgy about ECT when I thought about billions of folks who never heard “boo” about Jesus. Once I realized Wesleyanism shared with some other branches of the Christian family, theoretical constructs for a wideness in God’s mercy for the “benighted heathen” it got my wheels turning regarding other ramifications. So for many years I had short darts of thought on the subject, but I think it was about 8 or 10 years ago (?) reading a swirling combination of NT Wright, Rob Bell and Brian McLaren that began to fill in a framework for me to do some further looking and have some very faith-transforming “aha” moments. Thanks be to God. I don’t know if the folks here like Bell or McLaren’s pop writing, but they turned a real corner for me.

As a pastor, it’s fascinating to me how many people (literally) jump in their seats at the prospect of God’s graciousness and mercy triumphing over judgment, and who were carrying around serious misgivings about Christian faith in general due to the doctrine of ECT.

What’s your story? (BTW, I am working on this subject within my denomination, and your story can be helpful to us).

Hi Todd,

Briefly I had always been an Annihilationist, having been raised in a church that taught this
I was running a small bible class with a few friends. One of the attendees that I had known for many years but hadn’t seen for some time introduced, quite casually, the concept of UR.
Didn’t think much of it initially but started thinking more about it and reading and considering some of the more obvious bible verses;wondered why I hadn’t considerd it before.

It seemed to answer more clearly the fate of the non Christian and the problem of evil and especially hope for the countless millions of people who live and die a miserable existence with no knowledge of Christ- at least a more satisfactory solution.
That was probably 7 or 8 years ago.
Can’t remember my introduction here to this site ( I may have written about it in a prev. thread - I’ll have to have a look) I’ve found it a fountain of good information, often very scholarly, and a sense of fellowship with folk, so you feel less like a voice In the wilderness.
The other thing that impressed me and still does is the largely open mindedness and good spirit displayed, that I guess really is a fruit of the Spirit, even with some quite radical or differing perspectives.
Look forward to your perspective too.
Cheers S

I toyed with the philosophical reasons for it back in the late 90s but the conservative Presbyterian church I was going to managed to convince me to put it on the self because I didn’t know how to handle some of the passages in the NIV (that was before the days of Bibles & interlinears being easily available online). Thankfully in early 2010 my cousin inadvertently introduced me to optimistic post-millennialism, which suddenly opened up my mind to the possibility that God could do more than we imagined.

While I’m actually unsure about post-millennialism now, it was enough to make me open to reading Keith DeRose’s online article defending Christian Universalism when my dad pointed it out to me. Keith linked to Talbott & Parry, so I ordered both, and by the time I’d finished reading their books, I was as convinced about EU as I was about Christianity in general (which is as convinced as I can possible be).

I was extremely overjoyed at the discovery & naively assumed the only reason everyone wasn’t EUs was because they simply hadn’t heard about it. So I spent months debating it with my peers, but eventually got kicked out of the Presbyterian denomination, and a 2 years later, out of the Christian Reformed denomination where I’d moved to :frowning: Thankfully I can now clearly see how God has used the painful experiences, and the independent church I’ve moved to has been very supportive.

I was (and still am) a very big fan of C. S. Lewis – I had dubbed all his theological books to tape and listened to them on trips, debated using his techniques (often discussing theology with some pretty heavy hitters pro and con thanks to Dr. Victor Reppert being impressed enough with a review of Miracles I had written for Amazon to invite me into his emailing list, back in the days before there were weblogs etc.). I was almost as ignorant of universalism as I could possibly be, but I at least respected Lewis’ suggestions of post-mortem salvation, and was kind of fascinated that the man he regarded as his Teacher had been regarded as a universalist during his lifetime (although not having read MacDonald in the slightest I accepted that Lewis was properly ‘interpreting’ him in The Great Divorce to really have been an annihilationist). I also noted with some curiosity that Lewis basically said if we only had St. Paul’s epistles Christianity would have been universalistic, but that Jesus taught otherwise so we ought to interpret Paul along the line of Jesus (or if there was indeed a conflict follow Jesus instead of Paul).

I thought it was a bit strange that Lewis seemed to go for annihilationism sometimes, and couldn’t really figure out why he was doing that – it seemed to have something to do with God being intrinsically love in trinitarian theology, which I wished Lewis had developed more because that looked like an approach to theology that would have helped flesh out his Miracles: A Preliminary Study. But when I thought about it, annihilation didn’t seem at all consonant with God being intrinsically love. Also, it seemed like in two separate chapters of The Problem of Pain Lewis totally reversed his position on why we could and should trust God to keep on acting to save sinners from sin, although at the time I hadn’t thought things out enough to spell out why I had trouble there.

Anyway, as a personal exercise which I thought might be of some use in apologetics or evangelism, I decided to try working out a progressing metaphysical argument, similar to what Lewis did in M:aPS but with more detail and with some of his topical order switched around to improve the logical progression. I was pretty sure I could get as far as his Theistic Argument From Reason; and I wanted to test out whether his hints about how the Father and Son related in the Trinity (and to creation) could be used to take the overall argument farther than he did.

I started that project late in 1999, and while working on the chapter demonstrating why we should not and even cannot really claim all ideas are equally true I thought that was what ‘universalism’ was about. (Not that I thought Lewis had thought MacD and St. Paul of all people believed that; I’m just talking about how scanty and fragmented my ideas on it were at the time.)

By the time I finished Section Four, on the relationship of the Trinity to morality, I realized I had arrived at a conclusion that I ought to expect God to persistently and originally act toward saving all sinners from sin until He gets it done. Every time I thought of a principle objection to that, I realized I was denying some point of trinitarian theism (or at least supernaturalistic theism). That’s still true today, by the way: I don’t think I have ever found a principle objection to universal salvation that didn’t sooner or later involve denying a point of orthodox trinitarian theism.

Of course I knew plenty of scriptural objections, or thought I did; but that didn’t bother me much because what I had arrived at could still technically allow a never-ending stalemate where God didn’t simply force someone to be good but neither did God ever give up trying to lead someone to be good (which would necessarily involve inflicting some kind of inconveniences on them, thus judgmental punishments, with the Holy Spirit being the unquenchable fire.) I realized then that Lewis must have gotten to that point but couldn’t figure out why God would keep at it if He knew from overarching omniscience He was never going to succeed for some sinners; but Lewis hadn’t ever worked out his nascent trinitarian theology either. So he was forced to simply turn around and deny something he had strongly argued for out of his nascent trinitarian theology: that if we expect God to quit we aren’t thinking high enough of God yet, especially God being intrinsically and essentially love.

I had a dim notion at the time that I was somehow combining proper Arminian emphases with proper Calvinistic emphases, which pleased me a lot because growing up in a Southern Baptist Church I was taught to respect both sides (though our congregation skewed more Arminian). It shortly afterward occurred to me that when Lewis called St. Paul a universalist because he thought God would save everyone, this must have been what he meant, and it didn’t take me long to run across those portions of the epistles since I had an idea what to look for now. This naturally made me curious about George MacDonald, and I found some very nice hardback bound books of his theology (the Unspoken Sermon series plus Hope of the Gospel and Miracles of Our Lord – the latter of which especially pleased me because I had discovered that Lewis had summarized it for his climactic three chapters of M:aPS). And reading MacD with great delight, I saw that while he was far from Lewis’ level at putting together metaphysical principles, he did strongly believe in universal salvation. I could see why he believed it, and actually could see better why to believe it from trinitarian theology, but MacD never addressed why he didn’t think Jesus taught against it. (Keeping in mind, that didn’t bother me because I thought it just meant God was revealing the final outcome to be that there would be no final outcome, so to speak.)

I was quiet about this for a few years while I chewed it over in the back of my mind and otherwise made great use of various results of the exercise for trinitarian apologetic purposes. (The 3rd edition of the book can be downloaded for free in my signature below, Sword to the Heart. By the time I revised the text to the 3rd edition my conclusions were far more explicitly universalistic, btw.) I never move quickly on something this big, and a lot of my attention was also taken up with historical apologetics which led in turn to preparing a Gospel harmonization exercise. For that purpose I picked up several Bibles with close connections to the Greek texts, including the USB/Nestle-Aland Greek texts (with Metzger’s commentary notes), the NIV Greek-English interlinear, the Concordant Literal Translation (which I very much appreciated), and even Green’s Textus Receptus (which aside from providing an alternate textual witness, although I couldn’t find his text critical comments, provided two very useful literal and super-literal translations). To that I added my old NASB and a new Holman translation (which was just starting to be heavily promoted in the Southern Baptist Church).

Armed with all this, I took a break from trying to edit another book, and spent a season plotting out narrative and thematic connections between the Gospel pericopes, testing a theory I had developed about sorting the events based on more or less explicit time-place cues in the language of the authors. (i.e. where two or more authors related what seemed to be the same event, give chronological priority to the one who had the clearest time/place cues in introducing its connection to other material. I’m the sort of person who thinks this counts as “taking a break” from another project. :wink: ) I was quite pleased with the results and published them online at the Cadre Journal (over two Christmas-to-Easter seasons) as The King of Stories (which you can also find a link to below).

Along the way I had to decide what kind of wording to use, and did my best to stick with more literal translations, mostly to help provide a bit more of an archaic and early ‘style’ (along with a varying rhythmical scansion style that I gathered was typical of how the material often sounded in the original Greek or Aramaic to help with memorization).

As an unexpected side-effect, though, the project removed or unsettled some of my grounds for scriptural objections to the idea that God would finally succeed in saving all sinners from sin. Not entirely removed, not by a long shot, but it taught me some habits that I continued to apply when studying the scriptures, and over the next several years as I was working on other smaller projects I would be increasingly not-surprised to see snarls unsnarl.

In autumn 2008 I was invited by the men starting the Evangelical Universalist forum to write as a guest author and help administrate the site, specifically because I tied universal salvation (which I was publicly talking about by then) as a logical corollary to ortho-trin; and I realized I had better not be slowly puttering around at my own pace anymore, but focusing down to a much more systematic study of scriptural data and implications. Well, if I was going to do it, I figured I had better do it the same way I went about trying to figure out what the scriptures were saying about the relationships between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; whereupon I realized I had only been slowly puttering around at my own pace on that, too. :wink: So for practice I worked on that more systematically for a while, and spent the next few years putting those precepts into practice when analyzing for soteriology. It didn’t take long for me to discover the same techniques I thought were most respectable and careful when putting together data on theology more generally, led to increasing indications God would indeed succeed at saving all sinners from sin when applied to soteriology (salvation and condemnation). Many of the contributors here at the forum helped with that a lot, too, because they often came up with scriptural questions and observations (not always in favor of universal salvation) for me to chew over, publicly or privately.

And so here I am! :smiley: I had actually meant to spend this Saturday morning working on a biographic introduction to a compilation book I’ve been preparing in the back of my head for years and years, and providentially you asked us “what got you here”. Yay! :laughing: Copy, paste…

Jason,
Wow! Man, and i thought I had a good memory! I can contain all kinds of info on tap in my brain for decades, (at the expense of having to bear down and think really hard to remember what i did yesterday), but I am terrible at remembering the path I took to arrive at a particular place. Yes, what a terrible affliction, because people often want to know “how did you end up believing__________”) and i end up stumbling around saying, “uh… um, I, eh, well I was reading, um - hmmm or was it - and…” i can’t remember the progression that got me to what they consider to be a pretty radical stance, but was a reasonable, step-by-step progression when I was going through it! Ah well. I salute your useful and impressive recall of the trail!

On one of your notes: “it seemed to have something to do with God being intrinsically love in trinitarian theology,”
Eric Flett’s dissertation (and most subsequent work) is trinitarian on culture. He’s a Torrance/Barth guy. I don’t know if it comes back to love but much of his work on that subject does, and your sentence sounded like something he woudl say. I haven’t read it yet (for which i feel bad) but here’s the link: amazon.com/Persons-Powers-Pl … Eric+Flett

You may also be interested in Dr. Thomas Jay Oord, who I consider to be perhaps our front-running Nazarene thinker, and who does a lot of work in Trinitarian categories and focuses on love research. He teaches at Northwest Nazarene Univeristy in Nampa, Idaho and does lots of interesting work (which earns him more than a few detractors… but hopefully that doesn’t slow him down).

Blessings.
here’s his website: thomasjayoord.com/

In the late 90’s, I was an active member of a Lewis forum called Into the Wardrobe. One day I found myself typing, “Hell must be good because all that God makes is good. The question is, “Good for what?”” From that moment, quite to my surprise, I began defending universal reconciliation, re-inventing most of the standard arguments as I went along.

It soon became clear that all God-candidates who achieved less than universal reconciliation were unworthy of our deepest love and praise. It was no longer a matter of proving God intended to save us all, but of rejecting every God who failed to do so.

I think we should take this command quite seriously: Choose this day whom you will serve.

Todd,

eh, I get asked the question three or four times every year, so I have practice.

Also, how I got here is very technical, and closely connected to my theology in many ways, and I got here by means of an exercise to help clarify my beliefs and work as an apologist; so again I think of it a lot.

I still listen to Lewis’ tapes while on trips, too, so I get reminded a lot by that route. :laughing:

Hi Todd. In short about 4 years ago someone asked me what I thought of Carlton Pearson going universalist. He’s a very charismatic 4th generation black pentecostal preacher who was a graduate of and on the board of Oral Roberts University before he embraced UR. I didn’t know enough about UR, much less about what motivated him personally to embrace UR to have an informed opinion; so I picked up his book. I found his book to be more about his experience having come to embrace UR than a scriptural study on the issue, so I took a few of the passages that he affirmed as affirming UR and started studying them to show that they did not affirm UR. The more I studied them the more they seemed in context to really say that Paul did believe in UR. I was shaken, so I decided to study what scripture says about Hell, assuming that studying Hell would only confirm that when one looks at scripture overall one cannot accept these UR passages to really affirm UR.

ECT was rock-solid to me, something I had never questioned or wanted to question, but as I began looking at what passages actually say I found this “rock-solid” doctrine to crumble between my fingers like sand. I was very shaken so I asked several friends and family to pray for me and started discussing it with others. I also started studying pro-ECT material, hoping that something or someone would show me what I’m missing so that I could affirm my traditional beliefs of ECT. However, the more I studied pro-ECT material, the more I came to see that their arguments were presumptuous, illogical, and did not line up with what scripture was actually saying.

The tipping point for me was when I found that Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) did not necessarily speak of ECT when Jesus used it, even to the Pharisees. At the time I believed that the Pharisees used Hinnom Valley as a broad term to reference post-mortem punishment that for most was rehabilative, some annihilation, and for some indefinitely long punshment. I’ve since come to believe that Jesus/Matthew used it primarily to warn of the destruction of Jerusalem and possibly to warn of having one’s life end up in the trash, and possibly post-mortem restorative punishment. And if some of the Pharisees who used Hinnom Valley as ECT to control others, Jesus turned it back on them using Hinnom Valley to disempower the ones oppressing the disinfranchized (the Pharisees, majority religious group).

For months though I would not admit to myself, much less anyone else, that I believed in UR; until one Sunday in worship about 2.5 years ago I heard the Lord say to me, “Stop Lying”. It was a stern word, but I knew that I needed to admit to myself and others that I had come to believe in UR, though I knew deep in my heart it would cost me dearly. Well, I started being truthful with myself and others and it did cost me dearly.

So it was studying scripture that convinced me of UR, inspite of doing my best to retain my traditional infernalist beliefs.

Sherman,

It costing you involvement in denominations for a belief about hell reminds me just how dear to some people the idea of trillions of years of punishment is. It’s amazing how vociferously people will protect a doctrine they should yearn to hate!
Your statement *However, the more I studied pro-ECT material, the more I came to see that their arguments were presumptuous, illogical, and did not line up with what scripture was actually saying. * described one of my experiences too.
I picked up a book by Dallas Theological Seminary defending the traditional doctrine of hell. I was thinking “ok, if anybody’s gonna bring it, these guys are,. this will provide a good, realistic challenge to all this UR koolaid i’ve been drinking”. So i sat down in the local Waffle House with great hopes for my DTS brothers. What a disappointment! The arguments were so weak in that book that they were making my UR arguments FOR me! i remember thinking, “if this is the best the proponents of ECT can muster, i may have just read the death knell of that doctrine.”
I was amazed at the vitriole headed Rob Bell’s way for his little book of questions Love Wins. I think what we are often seeing is that people really think that correct answers to a theology test is what gets you to heaven, rather than Jesus. And that’s really bad theology.

Todd,

What was the DTS book you looked at?

I wrote this up on my blog – there are a number of posts starting here: journeyintotheson.com/2011/1 … l-odyssey/ They’re short – I try not to overburden readers – people are a little impatient with reading long blog posts. :wink:

Hey, I recently repented, and I was ECT for months,

Because of the big mess of the doctrine of hell, which prevented billions of Christians from 5th to 16th century to know
who is the real Jesus Christ, and Sadly, Martin Luther died without knowing the full extent of the love and forgiveness of God towards all people whom He created in His own image. I found no way but to go deep inside the philosophy to understand who we are, why he created us (to torture us?, better not to come in this world) and what really was his purpose.

I came out of the dark side of the idea of hell, completely removed it from my mind,
and began to understand what is PURE love, then I researched a lot so hard, became Anni for just 1 week :laughing:
I couldn’t tolerate my loved ones are going to some place like that forever, the reason for short time of Anni belief
was it is so UnBiblical because there will be punishment not just destruction,

so there will be punishment, permanent or temporary? then I imagined that which one comes from Good?

Isaiah warned us not to say to Good, evil, and to evil, good!

then I found website Godsplanforall.com and this amazing forum, having discussions with experts, then
step by step Lord revealed me his nature to me, when he desires to save all, so he has that power to save all.

Hi Eric! – glad to see the uptick in Middle Eastern troubles hasn’t hurt you yet!

:sunglasses: :mrgreen: :smiley:

Well, when Jesus told us Love not the World, after repentance I found the Kingdom of God by his word.

Hi Caleb. It’s in my office - I will look tomorrow and post it.

I’m amazed at the many different paths people took to arrive at UR. Many come to believe in UR because of experience, they just cannot accept that the God who the experienced who loves and saves them would not love and save everyone. Some came to believe in UR because of reason, ECT just does not make philisophical sense; if God Is Love then how can ECT ultimately be the end for anyone. And some of us came through studying scripture, finding that scripture does not affirm ECT but repeatedly affirms UR.

I just read Brian McLaren’s book “The Last Word; And the Word After That”. And before that I had read Jersak’s “Her Gates Will Never Shut”. Both of which I recommend. Both come to a hopeful UR stance, but agnostic on the subject. Both did an awesome job of deconstructing Hell from different perspectives. Neither came to be convinced of UR, though. As I pondered why, I realized that neither one of them invested much, almost no, words in their books discussing the pro-UR passages. They mention them but do not seriously study them. That’s why they are left agnostic concerning Hell and UR. I’ve often said that I’d probably believe in annihilation if not for all the UR passages and if all I studied were the judgement and punishment of sin passages. I aslo get the feeling (though I could certainly be wrong on this) that both do not want to be catagorized as UR because of the negative response they’d get from others. And I understand that completely.

Yes, it is very sad because then our faith is not in Jesus but in our own selves, our understanding. When I was 24, I came to a personal crisis in theology rethinking the baptism with the Spirit. I was raised believing the manifestations of the Spirit had ceased shortly after the death of the Apostles. After encountering believers who believed in the manifestations of the Spirit I restudied the doctrine on that for 3 months. After three months I had a choice to make, to trust in the Lord with all my heart and rely not upon my understanding, or to continue to trust in my understanding. I chose to trust in the Lord and experienced an awakening to the power of the Spirit operating in and through my life and the lives of others that I thought had ceased 1900 years ago. Jesus said that He’d send the Comforter to lead us into all truth. This presuppose that we are not in all truth. Also, note that He said He’d send the Comforter; He didn’t say that He’d send a set of letters or a new law to guide our lives, but the Comforter, which I see as being very personal and subjective, like in relationship. hmm.

Ok, well that took a while! My office got demolished during some moving stuff around int hat building - and i’ve been away a lot, sooooo anyway: it is
“Hell Under Fire” by Zondervan - edited by Morgan and Peterson

Apologies for taking so long!