Hay Dave what’s a POE?
Regarding Abraham we read that he believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. Does that help us? It seems to weave in there somewhere.
Chris
Hi Chris - Problem of Evil 
I think it does help us. The more I think about it, the phrase (I forget from whom): “Faith in search of understanding” - maybe it was Augustine? - is right spot-on for this thread.
We suffer precisely to understand that God is all in all. For us to get a point where we are cognizant of and are actively engaged in spiritual matters requires less philosophy and more prayer and listening to the Word of God and obedience.
By overcoming your nature and advancing past the chains that pain (a unique characteristic of humanity) holds on us, we embrace His nature through repentance. The Holy Spirit brings us into conviction and out of a mortal mindset to grasp that God’s way are better than our own ways. Many say that if they were in the place of God, they would stop all suffering but they do not understand the pruning process of God’s grace. Grace is necessary as a result of sin. We, as humans, are privileged to experience the grace of God.
Just because there is more pain in some parts of the world than modernized countries doesn’t mean that God loves any creation over the other. He simply has a different plan in place for different people. Those who suffer more, gain more in the end. Those who suffer less, gain less. God gives rewards to those as He sees fit according to His great justice. As Christians, we should focus our minds on the glory God attains from reconciliation.
Dave, I hope you find peace through your dilemnas and recognize God’s grace regardless of what conclusion you come to. 
You’re welcome Dave. I have always found your posts to be some of the most worthwhile and I thank you for them.
Yes, I can accept that, but we must take care how far down the road we go. Without doubt, he is talking about the truth of our faith we must not lose sight of that. So (and I am aware that we all have slightly differing faiths), to the extent that our faith is based on reality (ie God exists rather than ‘a concept of god’ exists, the man Jesus died and rose again bodily, we have life beyond this mortal coil etc etc.), then I still perceive that his ‘needed truth’ (be it existential) either means:
‘an existential truth which also happens to be something I need’
or:
‘something I want/need to be true, even if it isn’t (in reality or existentially) true at all’
Yes, quite so and we, as spiritual beings understand a ‘knowing’ which is very different - good point.
Yes thanks Dave, your post makes perfect sense to me, I am in full agreement with it but I do not see that it fully addresses my cut on his passage.
I suppose, what I am saying is that he is trying to defend his faith by using those restricted parameters (which you are clearly not) despite the fact that he sees the necessity of going beyond those parameters. To this extent I believe that he falls into the trap which I myself fall into again and again. This is why I find your own words worth ten of his when you say:
And perhaps we must leave it at that.
It reminds me of that old hymn which says:
“You ask me how I know He lives
He lives within my heart”
I think we are of similar mind and must also thank Nick for his input:
Amen Nick -but to take your point further I’d love to know what precisely you mean by “listening to the Word of God”.
Thank you for that very thoughtful reply, John. I do think we are very close in our thinking here.
Just a place-holder to let everyone (and Pilgrim/John especially) that I’ve moved Nick’s answer to him (Pilgrim) to a topic of its own, to avoid turning this topic off-track. You can find it here.
Dave, Trey just posted this to his “UR Church the Easy Way” (or something like that) topic. I thought you’d love it, and it does fit with your thread here, so . . . .
I enjoyed that VERY much, thanks Cindy!!
It’s been about a year and a half since that last post - this Forum is kind of a journal; I look back on this excellent thread - and I thank all of you who contributed at a time I was very low - and it reminds me that I constantly need to ‘cut through the crap’ of my illusions of reality and try to really SEE the world ‘as it is’; to stop using every diversion as if it is a drug, dulling a clearer vision, even if that vision is uncomfortable.
I’m still in the position of the cognitive dissonance of the OP in this thread; I reckon that that dissonance is the ‘new normal’? And because of that, the advice/perspective/sympathy of your contributions is still very relevant. I’m particularly glad that there was no “now, now, have some tea and a great pile of buttered toast, and it’s not as bad as all that, is it now?” No FALSE comfort, but some TRUE ‘comfort’ in knowing that many of us are on the same page.
The world has not changed in the past year and a half - not to say that our ‘personal worlds’ haven’t changed - life is still hard; I have become more aware that as a citizen who has benefited from the hard work, self-sacrifice, and genius of past generations, I have taken those benefits for granted. They can only be treasured by those willing to continue the hard work.
life is still hard; I have become more aware that as a citizen who has benefited from the hard work, self-sacrifice, and genius of past generations, I have taken those benefits for granted. They can only be treasured by those willing to continue the hard work.
Speaking of life being hard sometimes I think about what life was like before modern medicine, before antibiotics or before anesthesia or dentistry.
What happened to folks who developed infections , did they just die? What if they needed surgery? What happened if they got cavities or needed new teeth? What if they were born into serfdom in medieval Europe, would they remain serfs forever? Did most of their kids die?
Life can be crappy now and very unfair but it’s been a lot worse in the past.
The majority of people who died in pre-modern times died of - tooth infection! At least, so I have read.
"Hard’ is a relative term, I think your’re saying, and I agree.
"Hard’ is a relative term, I think your’re saying, and I agree.
But back to my thought about if you born into a serf family in medieval Europe , what would your life be like? It’s a serious question.
Connie Willis is a wonderful novelist, and has one available called ‘The Doomsday Book’ that describes that life very well and accurately. I recommend it. She brings to life an entire culture, and many things that I had not thought of - for instance, if one of us was teleported to a medieval village, just one inhalation of the stench-ridden air might very well render us unconscious. Gads.
Of course, those people living in that time did not have us to measure themselves by. When I said ‘life is still hard’ I was not referring to mine specifically, but to life in the world in general, same as it always was.
Maybe in 500 years, they will look back at us and say ‘glad I didn’t have live in that crappy time’
Dave,
Praying for you. Our church will also on Sunday.
Chad
I surely appreciate this thread, Dave.
I have pondered the problem of evil for many years, and think I have a partial solution. But I don’t think anyone has fully solved the problem.
This morning I wept concerning the situation in Madaya, just north-east of Damascus.
The city is surrounded by rebels against the Syrian government, with automatic weapons to prevent anyone from leaving. This has been going on for months, and has resulted in starvation. Somehow, this situation is considered to be a weapon of war by the rebels. Some people have starved to death. Many are skin and bones. One Madayan woman was boiling something on a fire. Asked what she was cooking, she replied, “Grass. For the old man.” But at last help has been able to enter the city.
cnn.com/2016/01/11/middleeast/syria-madaya-starvation/
Why does God allow such a situation? That is the age-old question. Of course, He doesn’t “allow” it in the sense of giving his permission. But He does “allow” it in the sense of doing nothing to prevent it.
Dave, I also am deeply disturbed about such situations—mass starvation while North American pastors are crying for money to build bigger and better-equipped church buildings. Anything that we can do to help, no matter how small, expresses our love for the most needy people in the world. And I don’t mean only Madaya. There is horrific suffering throughout the entire world—even in the democratic countries of North America.
Thank you Paidion.
Steve - thanks for bringing this up - the daily life of, say, a medieval villager. I reminds me of how interesting that life must have been (as well as how difficult),
C.S. Lewis wrote a book you might have read, “The Discarded Image”, a great study of the worldview of many in the Middle Ages. I must say, that worldview was richer, more colorful imo, more ‘human’ than ours, in many ways. The book does not deal so much in the day-to-day as Connie Willis’ novel, but does evince the background of that life. Fascinating reading.
Recognizing the effects of discarding that older image, Morris Berman wrote "The Re-Enchantment of the World’ which I found interesting as well. It is available for free for Kindle.
amazon.com/Reenchantment-Wor … +the+world
This is why I believe that the works of God are of utmost importance. I am at odds with the idea that we are simply saved by faith. I see the effects of it taking place in this age of “entitlement.” I am very blessed to have been born in America and raised in the word of God. I definitely agree with you Dave. These blessings have come from the hard work and sacrifice of the many that have walked before us, and we must continue to work for the here and now as well as the generations yet to be born. Looking at the world around us, seeing all the pain and suffering that goes on, it’s sometimes hard to believe that we can make a difference. I would imagine that this is pretty much how the apostles and disciples must have felt. But, were it not for their belief in God, putting their faith in His word and His spirit and doing the things He told them to do, we would not be where we are today. As Paidion mentions, whether our contributions are big or small, it all adds up. Becoming actively involved in helping others not only lifts our spirits, but it helps to keep our minds busy and focused on making the world a better place.
Well put, LLC, I agree with you.