I would just love to hear your answers to some of my questions. Moderators please note this is not set up for a debate but I would love to learn from others and their thoughts. There will be no judgement on peoples beliefs.
First of all I apologise if my questions/comments seem silly but I need to put them out there.
Ok here goes…
I do believe that Jesus died so we are all restored to him for eternity.
What does that mean for people prior to Jesus dying on the cross? Where did they go when they died?
What are your thoughts on everyone being saved? Is there a judgement where people are rehabilitated or restored before they can enter the inner circle with God?
If someone still chooses not to be with God do they have a choice? For example C.S Lewis portrays this when some people can see the glorious kingdom of heaven but there are others in the same place who are always complaining and stuck in the mud but they just arent willing to see the Kingdom although they are there. What are your thoughts? Is it our free will to come to God or will God bring evryone together no matter what?
My thoughts at the moment are that Jesus reconciled ALL of humanity through the cross. I do think that there will be a judgement but ultimately all can end up with God if we choose to. I have absolutely no idea on what to think about where people have gone prior to Jesus dying on the cross.
Thank you for listening to my thoughts and please be gentle as I am just starting to get back into my study of Universalism. I have just started reading All Shall Be Well to get an understanding of peoples thoughts through time on Universalism.
I’ll give it a go – but do remember that not everyone will feel the same as I about everything. These are my opinions/beliefs, and you need to work out your own in concert with the Holy Spirit. But for what it’s worth . . .
I believe that the Jewish belief, as presented in the Old Testament, was that people went to “the unseen” or “sheol,” what we would call the grave. There’s no intimation that I can see from the OT that people believed in a conscious after-life. Belief in a resurrection, however, was well established by the time Jesus appeared on the scene. Pharisees believed this; Sadducees did not.
I believe everyone will be saved, and that there will be a judgment in which people will be rehabilitated and restored.
Yes. (No, sorry – I couldn’t resist – but basically, this IS my answer.) Because I don’t believe that God is limited to working during our earthly lives (as Lewis also apparently did not), it makes sense to me that anyone in possession of a rational thought process and adequate information will eventually choose what is in his/her best interest.
An irrational person does not, by definition, have freedom to choose, so in order to offer him a free choice, Father must first heal his thought processes. A person can only make a rational decision based on sufficient information, therefore in order for him to exercise full freedom of choice, he must have full and adequate information as to what the choices ARE. I believe it is incoherent to contend that a rational person possessed of adequate information would continue for all eternity to resist that which he understands will be in his own best interest.
CS Lewis’ picture of this involves devolved people (or dwarves!) who are irrational and therefore (imo) unable to genuinely exercise freedom of choice.
Yes there will! Not by you probably, but I’m guessing by others. These are my answers, but I’d be surprised if many (or any) on here agreed with them.
There are no silly questions. IMO, the number one problem with the Christian church is that people don’t want to, or are scared of asking questions.
The same as people who die now. Their body returns to the dust, their spirit returns to God and their soul goes to the unseen, or Sheol, which is the Hebrew word which corresponds to hades in the Greek. It means “unseen”. That’s all we know about hades. It’s unseen.
It’s a personal choice, really…
But seriously, yes, definitely. It’s a done deal. Everyone will be saved, just as everyone died in Adam. Correction: everyone has already been saved, just as everyone died in Adam. Everyone was saved when Jesus died on the cross. Note that Paul’s explanation of his gospel says that Christ died for sins. The reason sins have been dealt with is because Christ died, not because Christ died and I “accepted” it, or “invited Jesus into my heart”, or other similar things. Just as no-one had a choice about dying in Adam, so also no-one had a choice about being made alive in Christ.
I think so. I take the great white throne judgment and the lake of fire (which is the 2nd death) to be this judgment.
You’re assuming people have the ***free ***will to choose to reject God at all. No-one seeks God. This is because God has bound everyone over to stubborness/disobedience. The only reason anyone ends up “choosing” God, is because God gives them the gift of faith to acknowledge what is already true, namely that Christ died for their sins and their sins have already been paid for. This is why our “good news” that we need to spread as ambassadors is “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting your sins against you. Be reconciled to God!” If at some point during this lifetime, the Father draws someone to himself, then that means God has given that person the gift of faith and that person will end up being a “believer”. If God doesn’t give someone that gift of faith in this lifetime, he’ll give it to them later. This is why God is the saviour of all men, especially belivers. In a very real sense, if the guy across the road isn’t a believer, it’s not his fault. God bound him over to disobedience, and when God is good and ready, God will give him the gift of faith, and in doing so, God will be having mercy on him.
C. S. Lewis was an incredibly clear, lucid and brilliant thinker who has blessed countless people, including myself. That doesn’t necessarily mean everything he said/taught was correct scripturally.
See my answer above regarding free will. No-one can possibly “come to God” due to their “free will” because no-one seeks God unless God first draws them. There is only one free will in the universe and that’s God. Logically, and biblically, it’s not possible for even one other person to have a truly free will. This would then mean there were two free wills, quite possibly at odds.
God will most definitely bring everyone together. At the consummation, God will be all in all. This will be after Christ hands over the kingdom to God. At this point, “all things” in heaven and on earth will have been reconciled to God.
Excellent! I LOVE your past tense there.
Think through this a little more.
To the dust (body), God (spirit) and the unseen (soul).
Your questions are fantastic. If/when others post replies which are different to mine or Cindy’s, don’t decide which you think is right according to weight of numbers, or “finest sounding”. Go and search yourself through the Scriptures and be confident in what *you *believe.
Thanks for the answers but can you elaborate on this one for me? Does that mean there was no conscious after-life until after Jesus dying on the cross? That is alot of people who are not in heaven.
Cindy I really love your thoughts here and they make so much sense. Thank you for sharing with me!
Yes. We are definitely talking about Jesus saving us from sin. The wages of sin is death. Sin and death are completely interconnected. The only reason death happens is becasue of sin. If there was no sin, there would be no death.
With this in mind, when Paul speaks of everyone dying in Adam, we can think of this also as everyone being dead in sin. Paul uses this expression, and again, notice how he links death and sin. Now, Paul says that Christ died for sins. What does that mean? It means that Christ’s death was necessary and sufficient to deal with sin once and for all. He already dealt with all sin at the cross. There is no outstanding sin of anyone that hasn’t yet been dealt with.
But we don’t yet see the “consummation” of this fact. We still see people dying. Many people “die in their sins”. But does this mean they’re done for? No way! How could that be the end, when Jesus has already taken care of the sin problem on the cross?
And the question becomes “Exactly who did Jesus save from their sin?” The answer: exactly the same people who were dead in their sins, by being born into sin through Adam. Everyone. (I firmly believe satan will also be reconciled to God, but this is another matter. I’ll stick to humanity here.) This is why Paul says things like “as in adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive”. It’s the same group. It can’t be split.
But since God doesn’t give everyone the gift of faith to see what’s true (Jesus died to take away the sins of the whole world) some people “die in their sin”. Those people are dead. They will be raised to life at some point in the future.
But what of those who are believers now, in this lifetime? Are they currently “in heaven”, “with Jesus”, and therefore “immortal”. No. There is only one person who is immortal currently, and that’s Jesus.
Here’s 1 Tim 6:13-16…“I charge thee, before God, who is making all things alive, and of Christ Jesus, who did testify before Pontius Pilate the right profession, 14 that thou keep the command unspotted, unblameable, till the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ,15 which in His own times He shall show – the blessed and only potentate, the King of the kings and Lord of the lords,16 who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom [is] honour and might age-during! Amen.”
And Paul confirms this in 1 Cor 15:51-54…“I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we – we shall be changed:53 for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;54 and*** when*** this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up – to victory;”
This means that currently anyone who has died “in Christ” is dead. Those people are not yet raised to life. Paul just said it. Notice two things from that: the dead “shall be” raised incorruptibe. That means they are not currently “incorruptible” or “immortal”. Second, Paul says “when this mortal may have put on immortality”. That means the mortal has not yet put on immortality.
So, those who have died in Christ will be raised from the dead incorruptibe/immortal, then we who are still alive in Christ will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, also to be made incorruptibe/immortal. But those who have died outside of Christ will remain dead. They will miss the reign of Jesus through the coming ages, or eons. But believers (those who are alive at Christ’s coming and those who have died previously) will become immortal, never to die again. Unbelievers will remain dead and will not be raised until the great white throne judgment.
There’s a lot more here, but this reply is too long already. Main point: Jesus has already saved everyone from sin at the cross. Not everyone yet has the gift of faith to believe it. Eventually, God will give everyone that gift of faith. Once Jesus abolishes the last enemy, death (1 Cor 15:26), then death is gone. And since death is gone, and death is the wages/result of sin, that must mean that sin is gone. Now it’s been dealt with, but then it will be gone forever.
Well, i was meaning that you wrote "My thoughts at the moment are that Jesus ***reconciled ***ALL of humanity through the cross. " You wrote it in past tense and that is, I believe, biblically correct. This is why Paul has the audacity to say that God was in Christ, reconciling the world (note - not “the believers” or “the good people”) to Himself, not counting people’s sins against them. And so instead of being stuck with this crazy “If you love God, God won’t burn you in hell forever because He loves you so much” gospel, we get the amazing “God isn’t counting your sins against you, because He’s already dealt with your sins at the cross of Jesus. Now, be reconciled to this amazing God!”
I hope this helps, and feel free to ask more questions or clarifications
It’s good to hear from you again [tag]rline[/tag] (I’ve often wondered how you were going & prayed that all was well) No offense to Open Theists, but I reckon you put forward a compelling case for a more deterministic Universalism.
I think there’s some “now & not yet” tension, but I agree that we can often really downplay the done-ness, the now-ness, of salvation, when passages like Col 1:15-20 emphasise it.
Rline has given you quite a good answer that probably covers this as well, but I figured since you asked . . . I’m not nearly so sure as he about consciousness after death. He may be right, and he makes sense, but I’m just not certain. I tend to think there’s a possibility that believers may be conscious after death (although we could hardly be fully functional without our resurrected body).
As for the concept of resurrection in the OT, I expect that while God hasn’t changed, people’s understanding of Him was (and is, for that matter) in the developmental stages. There isn’t a lot (some hints) of talk about an afterlife in the OT. That doesn’t mean those folks won’t be resurrected – just that perhaps most of them didn’t know it.
Thanks for your good comments rline. A question from another “beginner”. I am a bit confused about one aspect and was wondering if you or others had any thoughts. How would you describe the unbelievers when they are raised at the great white throne judgement? Are they raised “mortal” and “corruptible” still because they will experience the “second death”? Do they then become “incorruptible” after God has achieved His purpose in the lake of fire?
Hey Alex, I have absolutely no idea what open theists believe, nor what deterministic universalism means. I don’t think I want to either. I just try to present scripture. If it happens that a view I hold is precisely some “ism”, well so be it.
Hey Cindy (and spiritseeker), I should make clear that I haven’t always been so sure about a lot of things myself. Up until quite recently, I believed what I believed almost exclusively because others had told me that was the truth - my pastors, my bible college teachers, anyone who seemed to know what was what. Recently, I became far more interested in what Scripture says. Quite often it is very different to the standard beliefs. ECT is one example but there are many many more.
[begin sidetrack] I actually started getting paranoid about it and thinking that perhaps some prominent theologians were being deliberately dishonest. I’ll give one example, as I want to keep the topic reasonably on-topic. In a book called “Is Heaven for real or does everyone go to heaven”, Jim Packer is one of the contributors, in a chapter called “Does Everyone Go To Heaven?” he gives a lot of fluff, a lot of hoo-hah, a lot of “the commentaries say that…” and a lot of “the church fathers…”. Who cares??? What does the Bible say? He apologises when he brings Scripture into it (…if you will pardon this long list of verses you can look up later…). He lists 6 verses which “allegedly predict the salvation of all”. Not included in those verses, nor anywhere else in his chapter, is, you guessed it, 1 Tim 4:10. Now Jim Packer is a “world-class” dignified well-respected theologian. There are only two options. 1. He forgot it. * 2. He deliberately didn’t include it because he knew it would destroy the entire rest of his chapter. This is my conclusion. I’m sure there are more examples like this. [end sidetrack]
The key thing you’ve mentioned above is that we could hardly be fully functional without our resurrected body. The Bible knows nothing of some kind of separated spirit-state, or soul-spirit state. A human is scripturally alive when that person’s body, soul and spirit are all present. A person is scripturally dead when those three things “return”. Death is not “life in some other place”. Death is the absence of life. How else could Jesus’ claim to be the way, the truth and the life be so huge?
At the risk of seeming Packer-like, I offer some verses showing how death is a return - body returns to dust, soul returns to the unseen and spirit returns to God; and some general verses on what death is.
Gen 3:17-19, Job 10:9, Ps 90:3, Ecc 12:1-7, Ecc 9:5.
Even Jesus’ death fits all these categories. His body was placed in a tomb (Mt 27:59,60) and was beginning its decay. It would have continued its decay if God had not raised Jesus from the dead. His spirit returned to God (Lk 23:46) and his soul went to the unseen (Psalm 16:10, Acts 2:27). Jesus was actually dead. Once God raised him from the dead, he was alive. His soul returned from the unseen, his spirit returned from God and he was given his new resurrection body. This is exactly what will happen to everyone, eventually, since Jesus is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Unfortunately, Christendom has made teachings that have no biblical backing. there is not one place in Scripture where “spiritual death” is spoken of (despite numerous other nouns with the adjective “spiritual”), and yet spiritual death is about as rock-solid a church doctrine as you could find.
All this is to say this is why I’m so “sure” that death is death, and not some other kind of life. Death is for unbelievers and believers. The difference with believers is that they get resurrected from the dead before unbelievers and reign with Christ. Believers in Christ are not currently floating around in some other realm feeling good about themselves. They are dead. The dead know nothing. This goes right back to Paul’s famous Thessalonians passage, where those in Christ who have died previously are resurrected from the dead, and then made immortal, before"we who are still alive".
Praise God that Jesus holds the keys to death and hades. He has already undone the curse of sin, and he has the power to impart life. If none of this were true, no-one else would be resurrected from the dead, and death would be the end. We have a phenomenal message of hope for the world!
Half-correct. There was no conscious after-life before, or after, Jesus died on the cross. The only immortal currently is Jesus. Which is exactly why the hope Jesus gives for believers is so fitting: the hope of resurrection from the dead.
You’re welcome, Craig.
This is how I think it plays out. Revelation 20 is the key here. (Please follow along with an open Bible!)
]The end of Rev 19 is the end of the great tribulation./:m] ]satan gets bound for a 1000 years, while Christ reigns in his earthly kingdom/:m] ]the 1st resurrection takes place. This is of those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus during the great trib./:m] ]the rest of the dead don’t come to life until the 1000 years have ended/:m] ]those who are resurrected in the 1st resurrection are immortal, since the 2nd death has no power over them/:m] ]at the end of the 1000 years, satan is released, tries to deceive the nations, but is devoured. He gets thrown into the lake of fire, to join the beast and false prophet./:m] ]then comes the great white throne judgment[list]]the dead are standing before the throne. The dead are all those who have not yet been raised to life and made immortal. This means anyone who was not a believer (raised at the 1 Thess time) and anyone who was not raised in the 1st resurrection. Everyone else. Note that hades gives up its dead, so even if hades is thought to be hell, then it must be admitted that at this point, hell is emptied./:m] ]These “dead” are judged according to what they had done, not according to “whether they accepted Christ” or other such things. This according to what they had done ties in perfectly with Paul in Romans 2: 5-11. And for me, it resolves that conflict I had about people being judged according to what they had done rather than faith in Christ./:m] ]death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Why? God has no more use for them./:m] ]the lake of fire is the 2nd death. The 2nd death is the death after the 1st death./:m] ]at this point, in the lake of fire are the beast, false prophet, satan, death and hades./:m] ]finally, anyone (from those people who were just judged at the great white thrown judgment) whose name was not in the book of life is also thrown into the lake of fire. Note the contrast between the 2nd death and the book of life./:m]/:m][/list:u]
To summarise: when the unbelievers are raised at the great white throne judgment, they are not raised immortal. They are raised mortal and corruptible.
Those who “by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality” will receive eonian (age-long) life and along with it, immortality and incorruption. These people get to live through the new heavens and new earth (Rev 21).
Those who “are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil” will remain mortal and corruptible. They will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the 2nd death. They do not get to live through the new heavens and the new earth, since they are in the lake of fire. This is confirmed in Rev 21:8.
Remember how Paul talks about God being all in all, but each in his own order? Well at this point there are still some people in the lake of fire. What happens to them? I don’t know for sure, but God uses the lake of fire to cleanse and purify them. We do know it will be “trouble and distress”. In Rev 22:15, those in the lake of fire still seem to be there. My feeling is that Rev 22:17 describes those who are in the new heavens and new earth telling those in the lake of fire to “Come!”. They can come and take the free gift of the water of life. But this water of life in verse 17 is the same as the water of life in verse 1. this is the water in the river, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb, flowing down the middle of the great street.
And how do those in the lake of fire get into the new heavens and new earth? They “wash their robes [presumably with the water from the river], that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.” (Rev 22:14)
And the book of Revelation is NOT the end of everything. That is told in 1 Cor 15. When the last person in the lake of fire has entered through the gates into the city, then the lake of fire will be empty. God will then abolish death (1 Cor 15:26). since there is no more death, there is also no more sin. Since there is no more death, the lake of fire (which is the 2nd death) must also have been abolished. Then, when every single person who was ever born is safely inside the loving arms of God and no longer held by death, only then will God be all in all. He will truly be the saviour of all mankind and will have ensured that all creation is reconciled to Him.
Thinking about all this gives me tingles of joy No wonder Paul shouts:
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
“Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”
“Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?”
For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Fee free to ask more questions or clarifications. I hope this helps your thinking about it.*
Thanks again rline for the time you are giving to your comments. They are clear and helpful.
I would be interested in finding out more about how you resolve the seeming conflict between the judgement of Rom 2 and salvation by faith.
Just checking that you mean by this that "they do not get to live through the making of the new heavens and the new earth, since they are in the lake of fire, but that they will experience the new heaven and the new earth after the lake of fire?
Sure. The conflict I had was how people could ever be judged according to what they had done, rather than through faith in Christ.
What I came to see was this. Faith is a gift. That’s important, so I’ll say it again ( ) Faith is a gift. What this means is that God is the one who gives it to certain humans during their lifetime. If God does not give this gift of faith to a person, there is absolutely nothing that person can do to become a believer.
What Christendom has done is turn faith from a gift of God, into a challenge. Those who have the faith to “choose Christ” win the contest. Those who don’t have the faith to “choose Christ” lose. But those who don’t have faith don’t have it because God didn’t give it to them. How can they possibly be held accountable for not believing when the one thing they require to believe (the gift of faith) was withheld from them by the only person (God) who could give it to them?
Now, the context of Romans 2 is this. In Rom 1 Paul talks about “the nations”. The nations are stuffed. Then in Romans 2 (part way through) he starts talking to the Jews. The Jews are stuffed (possibly moreso, since they had all the benefits). Then in Romans 3, he concludes by saying that everyone, Jews and nations, are stuffed. Completely. And then part way through chapter 3 comes the famous “But now…” segway which leads in to how there is now a new class of person, called a “believer”. Believers come from both Jews and from the nations.
But here’s the catch. Believers are believers because God gives them the gift of faith.
So I think what Paul is doing in Romans 2 is explaining what happens to anyone in the nations who does not end up being a believer. They see the invisible God by looking at his power in creation. They have consciences. They know right and wrong. Those from the nations will therefore be judged according to what they have done and how they’ve lived according to the truth they possessed.
Some will by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality. Others are self-seeking and reject the truth and follow evil. Those who persist in doing good will be resurrected for the new heavens and the new earth. Those who are self-seeking and reject the truth (the truth of creation etc) will go to the lake of fire. My feeling (and it’s just a feeling) is that those who persist in doing good will be given that gift of faith when they are resurrected. They didn’t reject the truth they had on earth, and as soon as they see “The Truth” they will believe that greater truth (still only possible because God gives them the gift of faith to believe it!).
And so I think that salvation by faith applies to everyone. It’s just that “believers” who are in the body of Christ get the faith early.
Yes. That’s what I mean. This is by no means as clear as some other things in the Bible (eg. God is the saviour of all mankind) but I infer it from the events of Revelation and the truth found in 1 Cor 15 and other places speaking of “every knee” etc.
I’d like to discuss a bit more about Romans 2 and judgement, but it is a bit different to the original questions so I thought I might start a new thread about this. I started it at Romans 2 and Judgement
who are irrational and therefore (imo) unable to genuinely exercise freedom of choice.
No offense to Open Theists, but I reckon you put forward a compelling case for a more deterministic Universalism.
I don’t think I want to either. I just try to present scripture. If it happens that a view I hold is precisely some “ism”, well so be it.
No wonder Paul shouts: