The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Sonia's commentary on "Raising Hell" by Julie Ferwerda

Studies Books
#1

I’m currently doing a chapter by chapter commentary of this book on Facebook. I’ll post up the three chapters I’ve already covered now, and then chapters will be added every couple of days as I complete them.

Sonia

Over the next weeks, I’ll be reading and commenting on Julie Ferwerda’s book “Raising Hell.” If you care to read along with me, you can buy a copy from Amazon, buy the ebook for .99, or download a free pdf copy from here: raisinghellbook.com/#page_6

Julie “sets the stage” for her book with the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes. Everyone in the story is afraid to speak truth except the little child who has nothing to lose. Take the child in you along and examine the evidence … Are the orthodox teachings of Christianity correct about Hell? Is it safe to question 1500 years of traditional hell theology? Could it be possible that most trained theologians are wrong?

Evangelical Christianity falls under two main opposing views, both supported by Scripture. Evangelical theologians disagree on two very significant questions:
Who did Jesus die for?
Who’s will prevails in the end? God’s or Man’s?

Arminians teach that Jesus died for the whole world, while Calvinists teach that He died for an “elect” few, chosen by God for salvation before the foundation of the world.

Arminians teach that many people will be consigned to place of hopeless torment because of their “free will” choice to reject truth in this life – the will of Man trumps the will of God, while Calvinists teach that no one would ever freely choose to come to God on their own, so He acted to save a few from hopeless torment, before they were even able to choose – the will of God trumps the will of Man.

These sharply contradictory truths cannot both be true, so whatever the truth really is, a large portion of evangelical theologians are certainly wrong.

Julie asks in her introduction, “What if both views are wrong?”

Julie is going to make a biblical case for this view that the true message of the gospel is that Jesus came “to save all people with the assistance of a chosen people, in a purposeful plan that extends long past this mortal lifetime. Jesus died for ALL (1 Peter 3:18), and His Father’s will that “none should perish” prevails in the end (2 Peter 3:9).”

This is nothing new. It is a belief which has been held by at least some Christians throughout the history of Christianty. There is evidence that it was a majority view in the early years of the church.

But let’s get something straight: It is NOT the belief that all religions are the same, or all roads lead to heaven. It is NOT a denial of holiness and judgment. It does NOT make sin irrelevant. And it does NOT devalue the Cross.

It is this, as Julie puts it: “Through a very intentional plan that reaches into future ages, I believe the true Gospel is that all people for all time will be willingly and joyfully drawn by the unconditional, irresistible, compelling love of a Father into a relationship with Him through His Son. In the end, every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess Jesus as Lord, and will give praise to God (Rom 14:11, Philippians 2:10).”

Julie writes: “What child would believe that a loving parent would create a fearful place of torment, and then endlessly abandon His children there to punish them in response to a limited duration of unbelief or rebellion, or for choices made from ignorance, distortions, deceptions, or bad influences? My educated, reasoned belief is zero. Take your child along; examine the evidence without fear of others; weigh the evidence. Dare to question, retesting all against the full counsel of Scripture, according to 1Thess. 5:21: ‘But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.’”

Some of you will ask, “Does it really matter?” And I say: if it just doesn’t seem important to you, then you shouldn’t take the time to read this.

To me, this isn’t just an abstract theological argument; this is about the character of God and how we represent Him to the world. What kind of God do we worship?

Julie closes her intro with this: “Ultimately, everyone must decide for themselves what is “truth.” If you are comfortable with your current orthodox Christian theology and you don’t wrestle with significant theological questions, this book may not speak to you. But if you’ve ever questioned the doctrines of heaven, hell, election, free will, and evil, or ever wondered why so many scholarly and educated people can’t agree on many theological issues, then this book will likely speak to you as nothing you have encountered before.”

I’ve held this belief for about 7 years now, based on my study of the Bible, and believe it to be thoroughly scriptural. Even if you’re not reading along in “Raising Hell,” I welcome you to comment, ask questions, propose objections, etc, in the spirit of the Bereans (Acts 17:11).

Raising Hell by Julie Ferwerda
When did the teaching of ECT start?
#2

Raising Hell
Chapter 1 Lost and Found

Julie Ferwerda begins this chapter with a discussion of the parable of the prodigal son. She notes the defining detail: that while the son was still a long way off – before he could even utter a word of remorse, his father was welcoming and rejoicing over him. This is a revelation of the heart of the Father toward his rebellious children – watching the road, scanning the horizon for a sight of the lost loved one.

Julie asks, “Is the offer of reconciliation being promised to all, or only to a few? Is it limited to this lifetime, or does the offer continue into the next, for as long as necessary? Is there ever a limit or deadline to God’s love and patience in waiting for His children to come home?”

You parents out there know how you feel about your own children. Does God love less? – Or are His ways infinitely higher than ours?

Julie notes that this parable is the last of a set of 3 teachings (found in Luke 15), all of which deal with the lost being found. The religious leaders were criticizing Jesus for eating with sinners and he replies by asking them if a shepherd with 99 sheep safe in the fold would not go out after his one lost sheep and carry it home on his shoulders? Then another of a woman who loses a coin and carefully searches her house until she finds it. Finally this tale of a Father whose son is separated from him by sin.

Every lost one found is a cause of great celebration.

Does God offer salvation and wait passively for the sinners to return? Or does He actively pursue and seek the lost, carrying them home on his shoulders with joy?

Julie writes, ““The lost sheep, the missing coin, and the prodigal son are really parables about each of us—every person ever born—who has either inadvertently gotten lost or willfully left home for the illusion of something better. “All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him” (Isaiah 53:6). Paul’s words also come to mind, echoing the message of the parables: “For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. …But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:6–8). The word “sin” means to “miss the mark.” In ancient times, this idea was about getting off the right path—getting lost. We have all been qualified as ungodly, helpless sinners and mark-missers who wandered off the right path, following our own way. Yet isn’t this exactly who Paul says Jesus died for? Was His death for most in vain?”

In the coming chapters, Julie will explore these parables further and demonstrate how, through learning what is the heart of our Father in heaven, we can be confident that eternal hell and separation from God is not part of the glorious plan of our Lord. She writes, ““If Jesus’ words are to be our instruction in the matters of life, then we can have assurance that love is the healer of all things. Our Father will ultimately never give up and never reject—never!”

But the great question lurks: What about Hell? How does that fit in with the message of these parables? This is an important question. We don’t want to be guilty of sacrificing truth for wishful thinking, believing only the things that make us feel good and blinding ourselves to God’s revealed truth.

About seven years ago, I was searching the internet for something – I don’t even remember what – and in the list of results, Google gave me something totally unexpected. It was a link which claimed to be able to prove that the Bible did not teach eternal hell. My initial response was scoffing incredulity – “Impossible! That’s an absurd claim! The Bible clearly teaches endless Hell for those who don’t come to Christ before they die!” I went to that article thinking to have the pride-stroking pleasure of an easy “debunk,” yet mystified at how they would attempt to back their statement. What I read that day turned my world upside down, made me doubt everything I thought I knew so well, filled me with fearful hope, and set me off on a many months-long quest for answers.

Next up, in Chapter 2, Julie will share her personal story about how she came to be QUESTIONING HELL

#3

Chapter 2: Questioning Hell

This chapter is Julie’s story of how she came to question the traditional doctrine of Hell. It began with her daughter, who from childhood had questioned the logic of hell. She couldn’t reconcile in her mind how the unconditional sacrificial love of God for all people could come to an end as soon as a person died without faith in Christ, nor could she see anything but injustice in the idea of billions receiving punishment and separation from God forever because of a limited period of rebellion and unbelief.

Her daughter’s difficulty only intensified grew into her teens and began participating in missions trips. There she saw, first hand, people born into circumstances where they had little opportunity to know God.

Note from me: These objections pose no logical problem within a Calvinist framework, which says that all people deserve hell and God is under no obligation to give salvation, or opportunity for salvation, to any. But, however logical this framework may be, it seems to play havoc with the scriptures that teach God’s love for the world and desire for the salvation of all men. And this conjures up a different logical and moral dilemma: If God desires salvation for all men, and is able to save whom He wants to save – why then does He not?

Even to herself, the answers Julie had for her daughter seemed lacking, but she had never encountered another scriptural way to understand hell, or considered that this long standing Christian tradition might be wrong.

The real challenge to her belief in hell came when her good friend and Bible study partner called to tell her she thought they needed to question this doctrine. They had already been through a journey together which included learning that our translations are not inerrant, learning of the layered meanings in the Hebrew scriptures, learning to go beyond the surface to deeper meanings, such as the symbolism behind the rituals prescribed to the Jews in the Torah, etc.

It was these things that made them realize the need to study the scriptures in their original language. She gives the example of Hebrews 1:2 in 5 different translations:

NIV: “…but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.”
NASB: “…through whom also He made the world.”
KJV: “…by whom also he made the worlds.”
BBE: “…through whom he made the order of the generations.”
YLT: “…through whom also He did make the ages.”

Julie writes: “Is there any way we can say these versions convey the same meaning? No. Yet they’re all translated from the same Greek text.”

Her friend pointed her to the website Savior-of-all.com and the article, “The Cross of Christ,” and sent her a list of verses. Julie writes, “How had I never noticed all those verses before—verses that seemed to express a much more inclusive Gospel than what I had always believed? There was certainly enough scriptural evidence to warrant further investigation."

Here’s the list Julie has in her appendix. This is not comprehensive, but should be plenty to get you thinking:

Genesis 12:3
2 Samuel 14:14
Psalm 22:27–29
Psalm 65:2
Psalm 86:9
Isaiah 25:6–8
Isaiah 45:22–23
Lamentations 3:31–32
Hosea 14:4
Zephaniah 3:8–9
Luke 2:10
Luke 9:55–56
Luke 23:34
John 12:32
John 12:47
John 17:2
Acts 3:20-21
Romans 5:6; 18–20
Romans 11:32–36
Romans 14:11
1 Corinthians 3:11–15
1 Corinthians 13:8
1 Corinthians 15:22–28
2 Cor. 5:18-19
Ephes. 4:5–6
Colossians 1:15–20
Colossians 3:11
I Timothy 2:5–6
Hebrews 8:11–12
James 2:13
1 John 2:2
Revelation 5:13
Revelation 15:4

If God’s plan is indeed to save all people, then where does “hell” fit into the picture? When Hell is questioned a lot of other questions simultaneously arise, which will be examined in the chapters to come:

• If there is no hell, what did Jesus die for?
• What about all the Scriptures that mention hell and eternal punishment?
• Does everyone get off scot-free, no matter how they live their lives? Why not live however we want if we’re going to be “saved” regardless?
• Why evangelize or tell people about Jesus at all?
• How could millions of devout Christians over many centuries have been duped, especially intelligent people who have devoted their lives to Bible scholarship?
• Isn’t this some New Age teaching in an attempt to make God more palatable to the lost?
• How could this satisfy God’s demand for justice?
• Isn’t the Bible clear that people only get one chance to accept Jesus in this lifetime?
• Doesn’t Jesus talk about hell more often than heaven in the New Testament?

Julie writes that in their search for answers to these questions, the evidence they uncovered is that scripture teaches the intent of God to save and reconcile all people through a plan of ages… and that this life is revealed as the beginning of a longer, more glorious story than the modern church has acknowledged.

Next up – CHAPTER 3: WHO IS GOING TO HELL?

#4

Here’s the expanded list of verses from my most recent installment of my commentary on “Raising Hell” by Julie Ferwerda. I couldn’t resist adding a few of my favorites which were not included.

Please keep in mind as you look at this list that “proof-texting” is not a good way of evaluating the truth of a doctrine. Nearly anything could be proven by grabbing verses from here or there. But in giving this list, I intend it as a list of “reference-texts” – a starting place to begin to understand why some Christians believe the Bible teaches that God’s ultimate plan for the ages is the salvation of all through the means of a people called out to be a “royal priesthood” to the rest of creation. I encourage you to look these up yourself and examine them in context.

Not all of these are specifically relevant to the salvation of all, but I believe they all serve to show the heart of God towards His people. Also, this list is not comprehensive. I could have added more, but I thought this was sufficient as a beginning.

Genesis 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

2 Samuel 14:14 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

Psalm 22:27–29 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you. For kingship belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations. All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, even the one who could not keep himself alive.

Psalm 65:2 O you who hear prayer, to you shall all flesh come.

Psalm 86:9 All the nations you have made shall come and worship before you, O Lord, and shall glorify your name.

Isaiah 25:6–8 On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined. And he will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the LORD has spoken.

Isaiah 45:22–23 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.’

Lamentations 3:31–32 For the Lord will not cast off forever but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not willingly afflict or grieve the children of men.

Hosea 14:4 I will heal their apostasy; I will love them freely, for my anger has turned from them.

Zephaniah 3:8–9 “Therefore wait for me,” declares the LORD, "for the day when I rise up to seize the prey. For my decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all my burning anger; for in the fire of my jealousy all the earth shall be consumed. "For at that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech, that all of them may call upon the name of the LORD and serve him with one accord.

Luke 2:10 And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

Luke 23:34 And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 4:42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

John 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

John 17:2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

Acts 3:20-21 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

Romans 5:6; 18–20 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly … Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 11:32–36 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
“For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”
“Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?”
For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be glory forever. Amen.

Romans 14:11 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”

1 Corinthians 3:11–15 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw–each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

1 Corinthians 15:22–28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

2 Cor. 5:18-19 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Ephes. 1:9-10 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment–to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

Ephes. 4:5–6 There is one body and one Spirit–just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 3:20-21 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Colossians 1:15–20 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Colossians 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, [fn] free; but Christ is all, and in all.

I Timothy 2:5–6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Timothy 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Hebrews 2:8-9 …putting everything in subjection under his feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Hebrews 8:11–12 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

James 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”

Revelation 15:4 Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."

#5

Raising Hell – Chapter 3: WHO IS GOING TO HELL

Julie Ferwerda asks in this chapter: Assuming that orthodox Christianity is right and Hell does exist – according to the Bible, who’s going there?

Masses – Jesus always spoke to the masses in parables (Matt 13:34) – not to make the message easy to understand (as is commonly taught) but as he said himself: “so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven.” (Mark 4:10ff) Why did Jesus not speak plainly to the crowds, warning them of the danger of Hell? Was Jesus deliberately hiding the truth intending that all these people would go to Hell without a chance?

Wise and learned – In Luke 10:21ff, Jesus thanks his Father for hiding the truth from the wise, and revealing it to babes. Was Jesus really glad that God was hiding the truth from wise people so that they would go to Hell for not believing? Is God still doing this to today’s wise men – Calvinists perhaps?

Disobedient people – “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter” (Matt. 7:21) [Note: some will argue that God’s will is that we believe in Jesus, see Jn 6:29]

Rich people – James writes (to believers), “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you…” (James 5:1ff) And, as Julie notes, Americans are rich by the standards of most. Looking at church budgets, the percentage going toward building projects dwarfs the amount spent on missions and aid.

Gentiles (before Paul) – In Matt 10:5 and 15:22, Jesus instructs his disciples to preach only to the lost sheep of Israel, not to the Gentiles. Was Jesus deliberately keeping the message of salvation from the Gentiles and dooming them to Hell?

Jews (after Jesus) – From Romans 11:7ff, “What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened ….”

Julie closes the chapter with this: “If we are to consider and apply all passages equally and fairly from our modern Bible translations, the Kingdom of heaven sounds more and more like some ultra-exclusive club, with a very limited membership. Even the Calvinists should be feeling pretty insecure, as should those in the
Arminian (free will) camp.

So now who is left for the Kingdom? Maybe a few missionaries who gave up everything to follow Jesus? Mother Teresa, assuming she actually said the sinner’s prayer before she died? Perhaps children who have not yet reached “the age of accountability,” and the unborn? Unless there’s an alternative to what we’ve always been taught and believed, the odds don’t look good for most of the rest of us.”

This is actually pretty descriptive of the mostly-Calvinistic style of Christianity I grew up believing – “narrow is the way to life, and few are those who find it” – right? Missionaries who gave up everything? Maybe if they truly were “real” believers. Mother Teresa – not likely—being Catholic, trying to earn salvation by good works, confessing to a priest, praying to Mary and saints, etc. (Of course some Catholics MIGHT be saved if in their hearts they had a true faith in Jesus for their salvation.)

Yes, indeed, an extremely exclusive club. Very few of professing Christians, even, would make it – most would be the “many” that will say to Him “Lord, Lord, did we not do great things in Your name?” – only to be sent away in disgrace – assumably into hopeless, never-ending torment and separation from God. (See Matt 7:22ff)

Only the few chosen will be saved, the rest will be blinded, hardened, or even have the truth hidden from them by God, lest they turn and repent. And, after the few blessings of this life – which are given to them by God as an expression of His love – they will spend the rest of their unending existence in the misery – or torment (if you want to use Bible language) of fire.

It is no wonder to me that I was always depressed! Is this the picture of a God worth loving and praising? Is this a God to be glorified because of His mercy and righteous deeds?

Or have we misunderstood something? I’m convinced we have.

Next up – Chapter 4: WHO’S RESPONSIBLE FOR LOST SOULS?

#6

Looks good Sonia! can you post or PM your facebook link for me? I would like to check it out!

#7

Thanks, Michael!

[facebook.com/SoniaLJohnson](http://facebook.com/SoniaLJohnson)
#8

Bookmarking this to follow it. :slight_smile:

#9

Hi Sonia.
I suppose the first thing that struck me about reading Julie’s comments about the three parables is that she glosses over the Son’s responsibility, and reasoning in the matter, and jumps immediately to the coin, and lamb parables.

We first see that the son got belligerent with his father, and demanded to be given his inheritance, and then took off to live in a far off land, and “Wasted his inheritance on riotous living.”
What I see with the parable of the Prodigal Son is that the son was in a place where he had time to think. Indeed, we read-- the son came to his senses…
The son is noted to have made a choice-- my father’s servants eat better than I do. I know, I’ll go home, and tell my father that I have sinned, against Heaven, and against Him.
Thus the son recognizes his culpability in the matter, and takes responsibility for it.
So, the son then chooses to get up and go back to his father. He goes from a place of just mental, cognitive, or intellectual assent, to action-- he gets up and goes home.

Notice that we do not see that the father went to where the son was, and dragged, or pleaded with him to come back. The son made a choice of will, upon recognizing the error of his ways.
So, as the son was making his way home, the father sees him a “long way off” and is happy to see his younger son is still alive, and all the more so that the son is coming home. Knowing how I ruminate over things that I’ve done, I can’t imagine how long a journey this kid had, but I’d think that if it was more than a week or two, he was having some serious doubts, perhaps thinking,-- well, I could just stop here, and get work, etc…
But in the end-- the son made it home, and said as he’d worked through in his mind. He repented, of his own volition, will, freedom to choose, etc…

What I see with this parable is that it’s not that the son was bad, or stupid with his inheritance, but rather that he came to his senses, and returned home. I.e., repentance.
The father did indeed love his son, and showed it by giving the son his inheritance, and letting him go in the first place. He demonstrated his greater love and respect for the son’s choice by not going to where the son was living, and dragging him back. He further demonstrated his love-- and this where I think real love is shown-- by letting his son come to the realization that the life he’d chosen wasn’t as great as he’d initially believed it to be, and recognize that as great as he had it, now, where real life was, was in fact with his father’s household.
I.e., the son had to learn for himself what really mattered, and come to recognize that there are consequences for his choices.
It’s these things that I think Julie’s narrative completely ignores, and does serious injustice to the topic she’s chosen to write on.

She appears to remove the freedom, and Love that God has given to us from the equation, and say that-- well, you may have indeed chosen to dismiss and ignore the love I have for you, so I’m just going to sit you in a corner for a while, and then perhaps you’ll come to recognize that it’s better with me, than apart from me. Her version forces the child back, instead of letting them live with the consequences of their choice.

If I were to apply Julie’s version of the parables to the parent child relationship, I’d be tracking my son down, and once I found him, looking for the opportunity to get him back. I’d pay the farmer to put my son in the hog pen, and watch him wallow in his misery, and then pay the farmer even more to ask well-timed questions and make sarcastic comments, so that the son will realize how great he had it. I.e., I’d be manipulating my son all the way. I may even show up at well-timed locations, to remind him that I still existed…

In the parable of the prodigal son, we see the good outcome. We see what Jesus said, and for those who are parents, we see the “phew” factor, where the child returns. but what about the children who do not return?
Does their refusal to return mean that the parent no longer loves them? Not at all. It seems to me that the parent is simply not willing to demand their own way, at the expense of the child’s freedom to choose their course in life. The parent does the most self-less thing ever-- they let the child go into God’s care, and pray. Probably one of the most painful things they ever have to deal with, or do.

Even when that course is a self-destructive one.

So, while I think she does a halfway decent job with the other two parables, it’s my belief that she totally dismissed, or even ignored the Prodigal son narrative.

#10

SteveB, you might read the Prodigal God by Keller. In it he states that in those days the elder brother should have gone after the younger. Part of his getting the 2/3 inheritance was that he was supposed to go and bring the younger back, even at the cost of his life. And Jesus was basically saying the Jews, who were given the special position should have gone and brought the lost(nations) back to the father. Also that Jesus was implying that He was the true elder brother, who came to seek and save the lost, notice that the parable comes after the coin, and sheep being lost. Both of those parables had someone searching for the lost, but the prodigal didn’t which would have been glaringly obvious to those in that community at that time.

1 Like
#11

Also good points, redhot!
I have definitely seen the church today far too often playing the role of the elder brother from that parable as well. In fact, we’re often partly responsible for the younger brother taking off in the first place! :cry:

#12

RedHot,
That’s very interesting! Thanks for sharing.

Steve,

Contemplating the parables is good, and I think there are layered meanings there. I also think we can get too lost in the unspoken details of a story instead of focusing on the intent of the Master in telling it. I’m referring to some of the things you mention… the journey of the son coming home, etc.

Your focus is on the free will of the son in deciding to return. I think that is an important aspect, but not the central one of the story. The son didn’t come back until he had nowhere else to turn, because he thought his father would not receive him, and at the last he hoped only to be allowed a low place among the servants. Perhaps the son would have returned much sooner if someone had come to tell him how much his father loved him and longed for his return!

I think the context of this set of parables is the key to understanding what Jesus was intending to convey. That setting is the pharisees criticizing Jesus for receiving and eating with sinners.

Obviously this is something these religious people would never do, and consider inappropriate behavior for one who sets himself up as a man of God.

Thus Jesus responds …

The first two parables tell of a valued item, sought diligently, found and rejoiced over. One is a sheep, one is a coin. The Pharisees understand these – of course anyone would behave this way! And at this point, they’re probably wondering what he’s trying to get at.

Then comes the third story – the story of a son “lost” and “dead” – how much more valuable but with no one to seek him out.

We see a Father longing for his son’s return. The elder son is “faithfully serving” his father on the farm, but all the while the Father is grieving after the lost one. Sure the Father has one dutiful son at home, but He will never be content until the lost son is back home as well.

At last the son comes to his senses and returns, whereupon the elder son complains bitterly at his reception. Compare that to the attitude of the Pharisees. They could understand searching for a lost sheep, and the lost coin and rejoicing over them – but Jesus turned their tables upside down, so to speak, with the Father’s reception of the lost son.

The supposedly faithful son is not of one heart with his father-- all this time he should have been rejoicing in his father’s house, for everything that the Father had was his–but all he was thinking of was what hard work he was doing for his father. Now, while his younger brother is being rejoiced over, he finds himself outside the party griping that his brother gets an undeserved celebration.

The heart of the Father is being revealed to the pious elder brother: Father receives sinners, even while they are still a long way off. He doesn’t wait for them to get to Him-- He runs to meet them. He doesn’t wait to hear their confession and repentance – he welcomes them with robes and rings and feasts.

The elder son of the parable – the Pharisees – should have seen that their Father’s heart was for the salvation of the lost – not the faithful doing of farm work, but the seeking of his brother. The heart of the elder brother – who for all his outward “righteous” – was revealed to be un-righteous, for it was not one with the Father.

Jesus – knowing the heart of the Father, and one with Him in all things – has come to seek and save the lost.

Sonia

#13

Raising Hell – Chapter 5: The Missing Hell

Julie begins this chapter by pointing out that for most Christians, the existence of Hell is an unquestionable fact. But is this belief really unquestionable? Let’s examine the evidence, starting from the beginning of the story.

In Genesis, in the garden of Eden, when man first sinned, if eternal punishment in a fiery Hell was at stake for all mankind, wouldn’t God have warned Adam and Eve of this? But instead we find, “The LORD God commanded the man, saying, ‘From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die’” (Gen. 2:16–17).

This appears to be a warning simply of “death.” Paul confirms this in Romans 5:12 “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.”

Julie notes, “The notion of hell is suspiciously missing from the Old Testament as the destiny for most of mankind, unless you read the KJV (King James Version) or TM (The Message), both of which include the word hell over thirty times. Do KJV and TM know something others don’t? Why the inconsistency?”

The Hebrew word translated “hell” in the Old Testament is “Sheol.” This word refers to the “grave” (in a symbolic sense – not the literal tomb), the place of the dead, or the ‘unseen’ realm. It is equivalent to the Greek “Hades.” To ascribe to this word the meaning associated with the Christian idea of “hell” is inaccurate and misleading.

This is why the majority of modern translations do not contain any references to hell in the Old Testament.

Julie gives a sampling of verses that illustrate the translation inconsistencies in the KJV:

Psalm 9:17: “The wicked shall be turned into hell (Sheol), and all the nations that forget God.”
Psalm 55:15: “Let death seize upon them, and let [the wicked] go down quick into hell (Sheol).”
Psalm 89:48: “What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave (Sheol)?”
Job 14:13: “O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave (Sheol), That thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past…”

Julie points out, “KJV translates Sheol as “hell” whenever they want to convey it as the particular destination of the wicked. However, when portraying the fate of the righteous, they translate it grave. Hmmm. Obviously, the translators would have had a major problem if they had consistently translated Sheol as hell in all these verses. The third example would convey that every person would go to hell, and the fourth that Job asked to go to hell!” And I’d add: Job asked to go to hell to hide from God’s wrath!

Julie sees the fiery furnace of Daniel 3 as a reference to the Christian hell. She writes, “Daniel is a prophetic book about future kingdoms and unfolding events. I now see this as a prophetic picture of the last days’ Church with it’s man-made teaching on hell, and the god who would throw away most of his creation into everlasting flames of torment is a false god made in the image of man (60X6). The One true God, who is a “consuming fire” of purification and not destruction says, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven…’” (Matthew 5:43–45).”

On to the New Testament …

We often hear it said that Christ mentions Hell more than anyone else in the Bible… but is this true?

There are three Greek words which are inconsistently translated as “hell” – Hades, Gehenna, and Tartaroo. None of these convey the idea of Hell as taught by the church.

Hades, as previously mentioned, is the equivalent of the Hebrew “Sheol” – the hidden, unseen realm of the dead, where both righteous and unrighteous go.

Of Tartaroo Julie writes, “Tartaroo is only mentioned once (2 Pet. 2:4) and appears to be a temporary confinement for certain demons until Judgment. “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment.” What is interesting about this word is that Tartaroo is a verb meaning, “to cast down,” yet it’s used in 2 Peter as a noun (a place called “hell”). An accurate translation should read, “but cast them down and committed them to pits…”

I believe this statement of Julie’s is somewhat inaccurate – but someone please correct me if I’m wrong on this. As I understand it, Tartaroo does not mean “cast down” – it is the word Tartarus used as a verb. Tartarus is in Greek mythology the lowest level of Hades where the Titans are imprisoned. Literally, Peter writes that God was not sparing the angels who sinned but was “tartarusing them to gloomy pits” to be held there till judgment. Interesting appeal to the mythology of the day!

Gehenna is the word most often translated “hell” in the New Testament. It appears 12 times, once in James, the rest in the Gospels. It is used in Matthew on four unique occasions, Mark and Luke have it in one passage, and John never mentions it.

If Gehenna really means Hell – a destiny of unending fiery torment, one would expect the Bible to be filled with warnings against it. Why is it not mentioned more often? Why do John and Paul neglect to warn against it?

Gehenna is the name of a valley outside the city of Jerusalem, which was thought to have been a garbage dump at the time of Christ. As such, fires were always burning and it was always crawling with worms and maggots. Would Jesus’ hearers have naturally associated “Gehenna” with an eternal fiery hell in the afterlife?

The Pharisees had developed traditions about Gehenna, possibly coming from Zoroastrianism picked up in their exile in Persia. They associated Gehenna with a punishment in the afterlife of no more than 12 months for most people, after which the soul was purified.

In the Old Testament, Gehenna, also called Gehinnom, the valley of Hinnom, and Topheth. This is where we read in the prophets that the people sacrificed their children in fire as offering to idols. The prophets warned of coming destruction because of this crime, “therefore, behold, days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when this place will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of Ben-hinnom, but rather the valley of Slaughter. …I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies and by the hand of those who seek their life; and I will give over their carcasses as food for the birds of the sky and the beasts of the earth. I will also make this city a desolation and an object of hissing; everyone who passes by it will be astonished and hiss because of all its disasters. I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh in the siege and in the distress with which their enemies and those who seek their life will distress them. ”

Julie takes the view that the Gehenna prophesies of Jesus are, like the Old Testament prophecies they refer to, a warning of mortal or temporary judgment, and had one fulfillment at the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and may include future judgments as well.

Julie notes that if Jesus was referring to hell in his references to Gehenna, this would have been confusing to His Jewish audience, since they had no warning of such in their scriptures. The prophets warn of physical death and destruction. In our Bibles there are a few warnings of “everlasting” destruction, however this word is translated from the Hebrew “olam” which does not mean “eternal” in a literal sense of “never ending.” It’s meaning is primarily “long duration.”

Apart from these three words, there are also references in the New Testament to eternal fire, punishment, and destruction in the which most will automatically associate with “hell.” These will be looked at in detail in another chapter.

Julie claims that of 120 references to “eternal” in the NT, only 10 could possibly imply a negative destiny; the remainder of the references are positive.

It is significant that the Jews not only don’t have a fiery Hell, but they don’t have a concept of “eternal” that is like the Christian concept. She writes, “Most Jews even find it laughable that the Christians describe God as “eternal,” because to the Jews, God is outside the realm of human description. They do not label Him and they think it’s ridiculous that we Christians try to pin human adjectives and concepts on Him.”

What about Paul? The apostle to the Gentiles and most prolific New Testament author must have had something to say about Hell! Paul’s non-Jewish converts had to be educated about the God of Abraham.

Julie writes, “Paul never mentions Gehenna. Paul never mentions hell. Only ONE PLACE he mentions being taken away from the face of the Lord for eonian (pertaining to an age) destruction (2 Thess. 1:9), but the translators errantly translated it as ‘eternal destruction.’” [This word translated “eternal” will be discussed in a later chapter.]

The word for “destruction” in 2 Thes 1:9 is ‘olethros.’ Strongs Concordance defines this word as, “for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed.” This is a reference to it’s usage in 1 Corinthians 5:5 where Paul turns a man over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

I should note as well that in this passage it is possibly an error to translate it “away from” the face of the Lord or “shut out from” or “forever separated from” the face of the Lord, as various translations have it. I can discuss that further in the comments if anyone’s interested.

In 1 Corinthians 3:11-14, Paul talks about our works being judged by fire: “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” Fire is another topic to be discussed in another chapter.

So, how is it possible that Christians have been teaching Hell for so long? If it’s not in the Bible, how did it get started? Next up, Chapter 6: When Hell Became “Gospel Truth”

#14

This chapter is an attempt to trace the origins of Hell doctrine in Christianity. This is a very brief overview, but should serve to give the interested reader some ideas about where to start researching.

I’d like to remind the reader again, that in questioning the doctrine of Hell, we are not disputing that God will judge sinners and punish sin – the question is: What does that mean? and Is our concept of Hell actually taught in Scripture?

Julie points out that in the 2000 years of Church history, there has never been a single undisputed view of what Christian Orthodoxy should be. There has always been conflict over “truth.”

For many Christians today, Hell is such a foundational doctrine of their theology that it will be surprising to realize that it may not have always been the dominant teaching of Christianity. There is evidence that for the first 500 years of Church history the prevailing view among Christians was that of the restoration of all things.

Tertullian (160-220 A.D.), the Father of the Latin Church, was the first to write about ‘eternal hell.’ Of the six theological schools existent at that time, only one taught that some people would be punished forever.

Julie writes, “Out of the six theological schools in Tertullian’s day and beyond (170– 430 A.D.), the only school that taught the doctrine of eternal hell to its students was the Latin (Roman) school in Carthage, Africa. Four of the other five taught that, through the death and resurrection of Christ, all people would be saved through restorative judgment and reconciliation in a plan of ages.”

And I’ll add that although this is not an undisputed claim, it is undeniable that there were people believing this concept at the time of Augustine (354-430 A.D.), for he writes against the idea, calling it’s proponents: “these perversely compassionate people…”

Julie quotes from Lives of the Fathers: Sketches of Church History in Biography, by Frederick D. Farrar:
“The advocacy of hell came primarily on the scene with Augustine: In no other respect did Augustine differ more widely from Origen and the Alexandrians [Eastern Church] than in his intolerant spirit. Even Tertullian conceded to all the right of opinion.
“[Augustine] was the first in the long line of Christian persecutors, and illustrates the character of the theology that swayed him in the wicked spirit that impelled him to advocate the right to persecute Christians who differ from those in power. The dark pages that bear the record of subsequent centuries are a damning witness to the cruel spirit that actuated Christians, and the cruel theology that impelled it. Augustine was the first and ablest asserter of the principle which led to Albigensian crusades, Spanish armadas, Netherland’s butcheries, St. Bartholomew massacres, the accursed infamies of the Inquisition, the vile espionage, the hideous bale fires of Seville and Smithfield, the racks, the gibbets, the thumbscrews, the subterranean torture-chambers used by churchly torturers.”

I’m reminded, reading this, of Jesus’ words, “They will know you are my disciples if you have love for one another.” And, “By their fruit you will know them.”

Julie states that the greatest influence on modern hell theology came from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate which was highly influenced by Tertullian and his contemporaries who taught eternal hell. For western Christianity, the Vulgate was the most influential and usually the only translation of the Bible they knew. It is likely that if our old English Bibles had been directly translated from Greek and Hebrew, without the influence of the Vulgate, “hell” and the doctrine of eternal torment would not be in our theologies today.

Julie has a number of resources listed in her appendix for further study on this topic. I’d also like to recommend Christian History Magazine’s recent booklet on Hell, which can be viewed and downloaded here: The History of Hell: A brief survey and resource guide

Julie writes, “As the centuries went by, the Bible was translated into Latin (from Greek and Hebrew), and later translated into English with the advent of the original King James in the 1600s. Since then, it has undergone over 300 more years of translator metamorphoses. When you think of how many people, opinions, doctrines, as well as political and theological agendas may have worked into the mix in 2,000 years, it’s hard to believe (and shouldn’t be believed) that the Bible has maintained inerrancy.” She says that the case for Bible inerrancy is built from 2 Timothy 3:16 and Matthew 5:18, but that these verses do not support inerrancy.

I have a couple of things to note here. First is that there were, of course, English Bibles before the KJV. Julie’s wording above might give the impression that it was the first English translation.

Second, on the issue of inerrancy, Julie’s point is, I think, about the inerrancy of our modern translations. Usually when the inerrancy of the scriptures is affirmed, it is the original documents which are being referred to (and which are not in existence). Few (usually KJV-only proponents) would claim that any of our modern translations are inerrant.

Additionally, it is inevitable that the translator’s system of belief will bias his translation. So many factors are at work in languages that it simply cannot be translated literally word for word – the word meanings and connotations, and the cultural background behind them do not match up evenly. This is why it is so important for us to turn to the original languages when studying the scriptures.

As an example of the errancy of our translations, Julie points out the difference in number of uses of the word “hell” in the more common Bible translations:

The Message=56
King James=54
New King James=32
New Living Translation=19
New Century Version=15
English Standard Ver.=14
New International Ver.=14
Amplified=13
New American Standard=13
LXX (Septuagint)=0 (the LXX uses hades for Sheol)
Young’s Literal=0
Concordant Literal=0
Complete Jewish Bible=0
World English Bible=0

Julie writes, “It was really eye opening to make this discovery. After such realizations, it was like I began to “wake up.” I began to see how many beliefs I had that really didn’t make rational sense. For instance, one day I realized that, if hell is really true, and God is actually losing most of His creation to evil and darkness, you could say that good is overcome, and darkness overtakes light. Ultimately, Satan wins the tug-of-war over creation, and God loses. What a terrifying thought—how did I ever get through life with such a fatalistic view?”

Julie is reflecting an arminian-based response here … that God’s desire was for the salvation of all, but although He could offer it to everyone, He could not succeed in actually saving them because some choose death and hell over God.

The Calvinist perspective would be that this losing of most to sin forever is intended by God. God isn’t “losing” anything or being overcome – He could save all if He chose, but Eternal Hell is for a demonstration of His justice and for His glory.

Next up we’ll explore these ideas further in Chapter 7: Satan Wins, God Loses?

#15

:laughing: Well done Augustine! Just how is it possible to be “perversely compassionate”? :mrgreen:

#16

Perverse:

  1. willfully determined or disposed to go counter to what is expected or desired; contrary.
  2. characterized by or proceeding from such a determination or disposition: a perverse mood.
  3. wayward or cantankerous.
  4. persistent or obstinate in what is wrong.
  5. turned away from or rejecting what is right, good, or proper; wicked or corrupt.

I guess that makes “perversely compassionate” something like: willfully determined to be compassionate

I like that! :sunglasses:

Sonia

#17

Raising Hell, Chapter 7: Satan Wins, God Loses?

The question Julie is trying to answer in this chapter is primarily about the character of God. She reflects that our Christianity has painted a picture of a scenario where it seems like Satan wins and God loses: either he’s “too short tempered and callous” to forgive and save his enemies, or he’s “too weak and limited to overcome their stubborn wills and save them.”

How does the Bible describe God? “Does God stay angry forever?”

Julie points out that an everlasting hell implies the existence of everlasting enemies, and God’s righteous anger would therefore be everlasting as well. But throughout scripture God does not say this about Himself. Here’s a few examples:

Psalm 103:8–10: “Pitying and merciful is the Lord; lenient and full of mercy. Not unto the end shall He be provoked to anger, nor into the eon (age)* will He cherish wrath. Not according to our lawless deeds did He deal with us; nor according to our sins did He recompense to us” (LXX)

Isaiah 57:16: “I shall not punish you into the eon, nor shall I be provoked to anger with you always” (Septuagint).

Hosea 14:4: “I will heal their apostasy (unbelief), I will love them freely, for My anger has turned away from them.”

Romans 11:32: “For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”

James 2:13: “Mercy triumphs over judgment.”

(*Julie has given a more literal rendering in these verses of the word which is usually translated “eternal.” This is discussed in a later chapter.)

Julie writes: “Though some people may try to make a case that these verses only applied to Israel, why should He show favoritism and forgive some people’s lawlessness and heal their apostasy, but not others? Though it may appear to the contrary at times, we are all equally valued to God and He pointedly declares that He doesn’t show favoritism (Deut. 10:17, Romans 2:11), but only works through some sooner in order to bring the same opportunities to all.”

Julie quotes Thomas Talbott who describes a different perspective on God’s intent toward sin in his book The Inescapable Love of God: “As the Augustinians (the belief system of most of Christianity today) see it, God opposes sin enough to punish it, but not enough to destroy it altogether; instead of destroying sin altogether, he merely confines it to a specially prepared region of his creation, known as hell, where he keeps it alive for an eternity. According to our alternative picture, however, God forgives sin for this very reason: In no other way could he oppose it with his entire being. …So the opposite of a sinful condition is a state of reconciliation.”

Basically we have two scenarios offered:

  1. Traditional Christianity says that sin is existent forever, quarantined in Hell
  2. The alternative presented here is that sin is forever destroyed in the reconciliation and repentance of the enemies.

In order to decide the most correct view as presented in Scripture, Julie takes a look at death and the Lake of Fire.

Will most people remain in a state of everlasting spiritual death? Julie describes several different kinds of death she sees described in the Bible:

  1. The first death – physical death as a result of sin (Gen 2:17)

  2. The second death – the death of the rebellious will and sinful disobedience not in conformity with the will of the Father, which can be surrendered to in this life, or forced upon us during the Judgment Age. (Matt 16:24-25, Romans 8:13, Galatians 2:20, Gal 5:24). The Lake of Fire in Revelation is a picture of this happening for the majority of people.

  3. Loss of abundant life is also spoken of in the Bible as death. When we live apart from the will of God – who is the source of our life – we are in a sense “dead.” (Deut 30:19-20, Jn 5:24, Rom 8:6, 1 Jn 3:14).

So, does the Bible teach that any of these deaths are eternal? Julie writes that the Bible does not teach that any of these forms of death are endless. To the contrary, God states His intent to destroy death:

Isaiah 25:8: “He will swallow up death for all time, and the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of the people from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.”

1 Cor. 15:53–55: “For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, ‘Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?’"(KJV)?*

Rev. 20:13–14: “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.† Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.”

Julie believes that since Revelation is explicitly stated to be a ‘vision’ and it is a book of symbolism, the Lake of Fire also should not be seen as literal, but understood in accordance with the symbolic use of fire in the rest of scripture. She writes: “Fire is a fascinating concept in Scripture. It’s almost always figurative or symbolic with the purpose of purifying, refining, and for accomplishing general good. The Greek word for fire, “pur,” is the word from which we get all forms of our English word, pure and purify.”

I have heard this claim about the Greek “pur” often, but as far as I can determine, it is incorrect. “Pur” comes into the English language as pyr- giving us such words as “pyre,” “pyromaniac,” etc. Our words pure and purify come from the Latin “purus” meaning to cleanse. (Julie may want to correct that in future editions!)

The point is not lost, however, as it is correct to associate fire with “refining” and burning away impurities. Julie lists a number of the ways scripture speaks of fire and I recommend looking up her list and studying the reference passages she provides. Here are the last two:

• Fire is used to reveal the quality of our works (1 Cor. 3:13–15).
• Everyone must be put through fire: “For everyone will be salted with fire” (Mark 9:49).

An examination of Rev 20:10 is revealing:

“The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire (pur) and brimstone (theion) where the beast and the false prophet are also. And they will be tormented (basanizo) day and night forever and ever (literally, ‘into the ages of the ages’).”

The Greek word for brimstone, theion, is defined: “divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease.”

I’ll add also that brimstone is another word for sulfur, which is an important element, and has been used from ancient times and is still in use today for healing.

Torment is translated from basanizo: “to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal.” And a touchstone is: “A stone by which metals are examined; a black, smooth, glossy stone; any test or criterion by which the qualities of a thing are tried; as money, the touchstone of common honesty.”

These things suggest that the picture in Rev 20:10 is a process of refining and testing for purity rather than the traditional understanding of unending fiery torture, and this is consistent with scriptural themes as seen in passages such as this: Isaiah 48:10: “Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.”

Julie lists two verses from the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament):

Daniel 11:35: “Some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, purge and make them pure (‘burn with fire’) until the end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time.”

Daniel 12:10: “Many will be purged, purified (‘burned with fire’) and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.”

I’d like to note that in these verses it is a mistake to say that “pure” and “purify” are translated from the Greek “burn with fire” – that is actually translated “refine” and “refined.” In spite of Julie’s error here, the point still stands, and comes across even stronger: “… those who have insight will fall, in order to refine (burn with fire), purge and make them pure until the end time…”

One more important thing Julie mentions is that we also see in Rev 20 the destruction of death and Hades in the Lake of Fire.

Coming back to the question, “Does Satan Win?” Julie argues that if you believe that many people will be separated from God forever because of their choices, this is essentially a belief that Satan wins. But here are some of the things the Bible says about God’s sovereignty:

Job says: God stands alone, does whatever He pleases, no one can ultimately oppose Him, and no plan of His can be thwarted or foiled (Job 23:13; 42:2).

David says: The Lord does what pleases Him, His plans stand through all generations (Ps. 33:10–11; 135:6).

Solomon says: He works out everything for His own ends, determines the steps and destiny of man, directs the hearts of rulers, and all His purposes prevail (Pr. 16:4, 9, 33; 19:21; 21:1).

Daniel says: He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth (Dan. 4:35).

God Says: “I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for me?” (Jer. 32:27)

“I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance” (Is. 45:23).

“Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand” (Is. 14:24).

“So is My Word that goes out of my mouth: It will not return to Me empty, but will accomplish what I desire, and achieve the purpose for which I sent it” (Is. 55:11, NIV).

“My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all my good pleasure…I have planned it, surely I will do it” (Is. 46:10–11).

Julie writes: "If all these verses are true, we can only conclude one of two things. Either God wills for most of His children to suffer eternal loss, or God wills for them to be brought back and reconciled to Himself. Either way, it is clear that He is going to have His way.

So then…what exactly is it that God wants?

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time” (1 Tim. 2:3–6, KJV).

My Calvinist friends will of course argue that the “all” in this verse doesn’t really mean “all without exception” but “all kinds of men” – but I protest that this violates both the context of the passage and the plain meaning of the sentence.

Next we’ll go on to Part 2, exploring the character of God, who says He is Love, and the Story of reconciliation – rather than condemnation – in practice.

#18

I suspect he meant it in the sense of #4, which is why I thought it was an oxymoron.

#19

One reason I don’t consider this linguistic argument to be very weighty: the Eastern Orthodox don’t have much, if any, influence from the Vulgate; and ECT is still a respected theological opinion there. (As is universalism, of course.)

#20

Agreed; let’s just say that it would likely be less prevalent in our theologies today. I think it ultimately had more to do with the ideologies and interpretations of various influential individuals than it did with the influence of the actual Latin Vulgate.