The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Stale Conversation with the Master of the Universe

Hey Kate, I can relate to how you’re feeling, as prayer is kind of a tough thing for me too at the moment.

There have been times now and then over the years when I have felt a very strong connection with God through prayer, when I poured my heart out and I felt that He answered in kind… on other threads in the last couple of days I’ve shared about my struggles, but to balance that out I want to say that there have been moments in my life when I have felt that God was very close, and those moments were beautiful and powerful and very meaningful to me, and I still have those kind of moments sometimes, like when I was talking and praying with my pastor over the phone about all of my struggles the other night… I guess you could call them holy moments…

I’m not sure if anyone has said this yet, but I think in a way your whole life can be like a prayer… what I mean by that is your life is kind of like this conversation between you and God… one of my favorite writers, Frederick Buechner, once wrote:

I have a lot to learn and much room to grow in all of this, but I believe that God can communicate with us in all kinds of ways throughout our day to day life, and we can communicate with Him in all kinds of ways too, although He’s more adept at communicating than we are, and also more adept at listening…

I believe that God has spoken to me through books, through films, through music, through images and numbers, through circumstances of my life, through dreams, through nature and animals, through other people, and yes, in my heart… I wonder if in a way everything is a potential channel through which God can speak to us, even amidst all the static and all of our fellow human voices, and the key is have our spiritual ears open to what may pop up on the radio of our lives and our hearts…

This is far from easy though I know, it’s hard for me and I think for all of us in one way or another, and all we can do is keep asking for discernment, that God’s Spirit within us will help us to know when it’s Him speaking to us, and if it is to understand what He is trying to say to us, and to embrace it as much as we can…

One of the things I’ve been doing off and on over the last year is trying to listen to God in my heart, and write down what comes to me.
Letters from God, if you will. I think I’ve mentioned this before to you at some point.

Here’s my most recent letter that I wrote down to give you an idea:

These letters that I write down encourage me, to be sure, and they have encouraged others too, which in turn encourages me. :slight_smile:
I’m not sure how much of it is just me, or how much of it really is God, but I want to keep at it, because it does encourage me and others…

You may want to give this a try yourself as one way of trying to communicating with God… you can write something to Him, and then see if anything comes to you as a response, or you can just write down whatever you believe He is saying to you, which is what I’ve been doing more lately, as it’s more encouraging to just try to listen rather than try to put down everything I’d want to say to Him… I mean, He knows everything about us already anyway, right? :wink:

There’s actually a lot of people who have done this… Cindy does it too, as she mentioned, and has done it longer than I have, and may be able to give you some good suggestions or advice on it, or at least more than me, as I’m still very new to this.

I hope that you and I and all of us can learn and grow in communicating and connecting with God, with our Abba, as we all need that more than anything…

Blessings to you Kate, and thanks for bringing up this important topic. :slight_smile:

Matt

What Matt has posted here is a perfect example of how Father speaks to me too. Though sometimes He finds it necessary to correct me, but always in a gentle way. I think He speaks to each of us in ways by which we can, as ourselves, hear. Some people hear just a word, but that single word or phrase is pregnant with meaning for them. For me, I suppose He feels the need to spell it all out! :laughing:

Now I’m going to drift into my personal philosophy. I think I’m right (of course I do – or I’d change my mind, and frequently do change my mind) but maybe I’m not, or maybe my “right” in this nebulous area is just a bit askew. Most likely it is. So . . . grain of salt . . . . Usually, He speaks to me in beautiful language and I think that’s because it’s the way I like to think and write, and after all, He’s speaking to our spirits; our spirits are “transmitting” those often wordless thoughts to our minds; our minds usually transpose the thoughts into words and phrases – or sometimes images – for us to understand. Because of this, imo, we don’t hear in some sort of unified “type” of communication unique to God. We are each of us a fragment of His image, and the way He talks to me is an aspect of Himself uniquely displayed in my being.

This is yet another reason for me to believe in UR. I believe Father has invested some particular segment of His “DNA” into each of us, and that what I have manifested in me, of Him, is unique to me. There may be others similar to me, but there is not one being in the history of the universe specifically identical to me. If I were to be lost forever in hell or annihilated, that facet of God’s image would be lost with me. How . . . well, how impossible! That a single spark of the image of God should be lost? May it never be!

I say all this to encourage you. God will NOT speak to you in just the way He has spoken to Matt, nor in the way He has spoken to Ezekiel or Amos or Zechariah or Daniel or Isaiah or John. He will speak to you in the way He speaks to YOU. Maybe you’ll need to draw a picture in your journal, and maybe you’ll need to write a poem. Or perhaps you just need to jot down a single word with all that word, from His lips to yours, means to you. Maybe you’ll sit in silence feeling (or not feeling, but believing all the same) the awe of His presence. Perhaps you will connect with Him while walking or while folding the clothes or shoveling the snow from your sidewalk. Brother Lawrence felt no need for a specific time of prayer as he never strayed from the presence of God. His book, “Practicing the Presence of God” has been a major source of inspiration for me. Do a search for your favorite format and you can find it free – or a hard copy is very reasonable, if you prefer that.

Not all of us can do what Lawrence did. We (or I, at least) usually need a concentrated, dedicated time to get away and enjoy His presence. Without it, we become dry and despondent and distant. It’s not that you can NEVER miss, but that you need this like you need food. If you don’t spend that time with Father (whether you can do it like Lawrence did or not), you’ll starve, spiritually, and become weak and faint.

As to interceding for others, I have a kind of idea that Father likes us to collaborate with Him. It’s not that if we don’t pray, He won’t act – not exactly – but I think that our prayers can change the WAY He acts. Not because He needs to be persuaded to help, or because He’ll leave the unfortunate soul who is NOT prayed for unhelped – but more, I think, because He has made US – members of the body of Christ – the one new man – the second and last Adam – lords of this world. If we don’t act (in prayer and in other ways) things don’t get done. People suffer. Think about it. In natural life, if you don’t feed your children, they will probably go hungry.

Here in SD, we have a lot of Native Americans, and most of them have grown up in poverty; most with no father and many with no mother, raised by grandmothers and aunts and older siblings. They’ve never been taught to cook or to feed their children breakfast before sending them to school or to regulate what they watch on television or even not to allow them to wander the streets at the age of 5 in the wee hours of the morning. I don’t say this to denigrate them at all. This is the way they were raised, and this is the way they (many of them) raise their own children. Does God step in and fix this? No – not as such. He has designated lords and kings on this earth, and those lords and kings are US. WE are to step in and offer assistance in the most attractive way we possibly can. I believe prayer, interceding for others (and for ourselves too) is like that. If we don’t ask, Father may actually allow the needy to suffer for lack of OUR care. What does this accomplish?

Well, for the needy, it’s possible this may accomplish the need to be willing to receive offered assistance. It may develop patience. It may teach the lesson that it is necessary to help others because if we don’t, the others may not be helped. It may demonstrate the need to make oneself part of the community of believers because if we aren’t related to other brothers and sisters, there may be no one to pray for us – and that we also need to pray for others because that’s our part. For the relatively less needy (in that particular area) it will teach, by our observation of the suffering caused by our unwillingness to help (in prayer or otherwise), the NECESSITY of our, as children of the House of God, ACTING to fulfill our Father’s will on this earth. Part of that action includes prayer for the needy – whether sick or lost or in material poverty, or in whatever way a person may be in need. Of course we would not (not those of us on this board) negate our responsibility to help the needy in material ways. It is possible that if we don’t help, Father will prevail on others to help, but ultimately if some human being does not help and the needy don’t find a way to help themselves, in most cases they will starve physically. Why does Father allow this? Perhaps to teach us to help. He is not pleased that a needy person should starve physically, but He allows this because the damage is not permanent. We all go through suffering and ultimately I believe Father sees to it that we all reap a benefit far exceeding the cost to us or to Him. Likewise with prayer. Father has given us some degree of authority on this earth and He means for us to use it. When we pray, He acts – not always in ways that we physically perceive, but He nevertheless does act. We have to believe that, because often we CAN’T see His actions. I don’t know why this is, but I do know that He intends that we should pray for one another and that it does make a difference when we pray.

I know the idea of Father allowing another to suffer because of our inaction is unpalatable to many. But I see this pattern in the natural world and I don’t know why it would not be expected to follow in the spiritual world. If we don’t pray, it’s possible that a brother or sister may not receive a healing that Father was willing to give. He wants us to work together for one another’s benefit. If He didn’t take our actions and inactions seriously enough to allow them to bring about genuine consequences for ourselves and for others, then you’re right. There would be no reason, other than personal benefit of having prayed, for us to pray. But I will say this for the sufferer. It always feels better when it stops hurting. A week ago I caught my fingers in the crack in the garage door when I was closing it. May I say that I was (emotionally) most SEVERELY traumatized! :laughing: I yelled (we live way out in the forest, or perhaps I wouldn’t have) like a bear deprived of her cubs. I didn’t do any lasting damage though, and now it doesn’t hurt. The fact that it DID hurt matters not at all. It doesn’t hurt now and at this point I don’t care that it did hurt.

Ivan Karamazov was wrong. When the pain is over, it’s over, and it is always good and right to forgive. He is proceeding on the surmisal that permanent damage has been done to the child who was torn by mad dogs, but what if permanent damage has NOT been done? What if Father receives that child to Himself and heals it completely and even adds to its joy exponentially because of the pain it suffered? The evil person who committed the crime of throwing the child to the dogs receives ten-fold for his sins against the child and against all who love the child and against God (and yes, against himself as well). All are healed and restored to one another as loving brothers and sisters. WE cannot do this. Father CAN. The man who murdered the child is benefited in his repentance and his growth and the gracious forgiveness given him. WE are benefited by our repentance (for failing to intercede for our fellow humans) and by our chastisement which leads to repentance and by the forgiveness of those we have wronged by not praying for them. The child is benefited by his healing and his own act of forgiveness, as is the mother and the others who love the child – for their own acts of forgiveness & etc. The person for whom we should have prayed is benefited by his act of forgiveness toward us and by his new knowledge of the importance of collaboration with the community, etc. We all learn a lesson we may not have been able to learn in any other way and we grow that much more into the image of Christ.

So yes, I do think it matters whether we pray. The lessons we learn FROM praying are much more tolerable for everyone than the lessons we learn by not praying. We have to learn the lessons one way or another, but it is better to learn them by doing our duty to one another than by not doing it. Father will see it all turns out for good to all concerned, but He would prefer we learn by obeying rather than by disobeying.

My take on it, for all who are kind (and patient) enough to have read until the end. :wink: If nothing else, it’s helped me to sort things out in my own mind and heart.

Love, Cindy

This is good, Stef. Prayer is not necessarily uttering words—spoken or silent. As you have said, “It is intended as a long-term relationship.”

Prayer does not necessarily consist of words, spoken, whispered, or “uttered in the mind”. Otherwise, how could we “pray without ceasing”? If we think of God when we are going about our daily activities, our inner beings somehow commune with Him, and we receive instruction directly from Him (without words). He just pours His wishes into us as we would pour water into a vessel. This ought to happen constantly, and if we focus ourselves upon obedience, it will happen.

Also what we wish and pray for DOES change God’s mind, so that He does what He otherwise would not do.

Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit. (James 5:17,18)

Sometimes God grants something at our insistence, even though He knows it is not good for us, and would not have given it if we had not insisted. For example, ancient Israel wanted a king like the other nations. So God let them have a king and chose Saul for them, but He warned them that their king would bring woes to them and added, “You would not have Me to rule over you!” That final sentence touches my heart. I can just feel the pangs in God’s great heart. He wanted to rule over them and give them the best! But they refused it for something much less.

Thanks so much for your kind, thoughtful, and thorough responses, everyone.:slight_smile: I am so sorry that I haven’t yet had a moment to properly reply – I didn’t get home until 9:00 tonight, and it’s sure to be an early morning (4:00 am to be precise) in order to finish everything. But please know that I have read and taken heart at your words, and I will share my thoughts with you when college isn’t begging for my attention every moment. (My professors seem to be trying to fit in a finals week before Thanksgiving break and the following “official” finals week. :imp: )

Love and thanks,

Kate

Hi Kate, nice to meet you! I’ve enjoyed reading a lot of your thoughts and the discussions that have come out of your questions. You are a really gifted communicator!

I, too, have struggled with prayer. The whole concept of so much of the traditional understanding is so troubling to me. So many people ask for prayer for things, like if enough people pray God will do something good that he might not have done otherwise. I find myself a lone ranger in thinking, “What kind of God is this that I have to twist his arm?!” I want to be able to say I’m praying for them. I usually do, but what I mean is probably different. I mean that I feel their burden with them and am trusting in God to carry them through their situation, whatever comes. I guess all we can do when we feel helpless and scared is cry out to God for some relief. God knows I’ve been there!

This reminds me, my sister, in the last few years, has taken up a form of meditation that she gushes about. Christians are always put off with that term so she’s careful not to use that word and, instead, calls it being silent before God. She’s convinced it’s very biblical.She went through some very traumatic events (struggles with panic attacks), and, I have to admit, it really seems to have helped her. I wish I could say how it works, exactly, but I have to admit I’ve not gotten past the first step. Since it’s mostly to just listen, you have to quiet yourself - something I’m not really good at. She describes it’s like a muscle and you watch your thoughts, from the outside so that you are in the moment. She’s described that it’s in those moments that she feels God speaking to her, communicating his love and refocusing her on the things that really matter - ways she can practically love the people around her better. She started with 10 mins. and worked up to much longer because she found it such a help.

How pathetic I’ve resorted to telling you about a third person’s experience. :blush: I like her idea, anyway, that prayer is listening.

For now, until I can master the art of being still, I just cast my cares upon God, talk to him in my normal everyday things. I’m pretty good at talking to myself, anyway. :laughing: Sometimes I’m pleasantly surprised with the way he provides in ways that I never imagined.

Good morning, everyone! :slight_smile:

Thank you so much for the insight. I finally have a free moment to venture onto the forums, and as I mentioned before, I’m sorry I haven’t had time to reply to your thoughtful suggestions sooner. (I’ve been up since four o’clock drawing a still life of soup – yep, soup – but I’ve finished now – whew!)

Anyway – Goodness! Where to begin?

Matt:

As you’ve probably heard me mention, I often say that I belong to the “Church of the Flowers,” because that is where I sense God’s presence most. I also feel like drawing, for me, can be a form of worship. The closest I get to the holy “Quaker Silence” is probably when zoning out for hours when drawing sometimes.

And you always write such beautiful things, Matt – a poet’s heart.:slight_smile:

Cindy:

I read all four of your blogs posts, Cindy, and I found them quite insightful – Thank you! :slight_smile: (Did I ever mention that I believe I stumbled upon your blog when I was first looking into universal restoration? And then – poof – I found you on here!)

My greatest problem definitely lies in the silence. My brain never really stops (I even often dream about simply whatever idea my mind was gnawing over as I dozed off!) Ever since I was little, I’ve preferred to have noise humming in the background. I listen to audiobooks while I drive, draw, and even sometimes when I walk across campus. I prefer to do schoolwork in the hubbub of my family’s kitchen. I even fall asleep to a rain machine each night. What can I say? For an introvert, I like noise an awful lot! :laughing:

I also really like what you said about pain. It is a sort of infinitesimal step to infinite healing – What a comforting thought.:slight_smile:

Andrew:

I like this thought, Andrew. I wonder if petitionary prayer has a great impact on others, but not in the way we’d typically imagine. For example, my mom and I talk about everything, even problems we have no idea how to solve. Somehow, it just helps to know that you have support, even if the other person can’t really “do” anything to help. So when we offer petitionary prayer it’s almost as if we are giving our thoughts over to the struggling person. Perhaps we can’t really “do” anything to help, and we trust in God’s omnipotent plan, but petitionary prayer still serves great benefit in this sense, I think.

Paidion:

The idea of “praying without ceasing” used to bother me when I was little. *God told me to pray without ceasing? * I had thought. I can’t even sit through a TV show! I’ve since realized that daily life should be a prayer – no need to take up a monastic existence.:slight_smile: I like how you mention our “inner beings” communicating with Him through even the simplest activities.

Amy

Nice to meet you, too, Amy! :slight_smile: And thanks – but I’m sure any communication skills I seem to have in writing I equally lack in speaking. In real-life, I like to follow Abe Lincoln’s advice: “It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it.” :laughing: I look forward to reading your thoughts, as well.:slight_smile:

Good thoughts on silence and what an interesting method your sister has developed. I’ve tried similar things, but my thoughts always rush too fast for my brain. Your sister’s experience sounds a lot like she’s holding a little unprogrammed Quaker meeting of one. (I’m a bit of a Quaker-at-heart, by the way, but I am holding off on joining a Meeting anytime soon because the notion doesn’t sit quite well with me family – My mother’s first question was, in complete seriousness, “Does that mean you’ll dress like that the guy on the oatmeal box?” :laughing:

Must rush off to class now – almost Thanksgiving break!

Love to you all,

Kate

What I wouldn’t give to have the gift of writing! I’m afraid I’m not much better speaking. I used to have a friend, in Sunday School, that would translate for me when everyone looked confused. :laughing: If I could form my thoughts quicker, I’d participate, here, a lot more.

My thoughts, in prayer, are always rushing too. It’s almost uncomfortable for me to be too silent - just me, myself, and I. Well, and God, too, of course. My sister tells me that this first step is indeed the hardest. She’s told me about how she watches her breath to quiet herself, be in the moment. Maybe that sounds silly, but one night when I was feeling particularly stressed, I did it, and I was able to relax. Finding time is probably another important thing. There are so many distractions these days.

I’ve discovered I might be a good fit with the Quakers too, which surprised me, because I also pictured them like your mom! Too bad you aren’t closer and we couldn’t experience it together. :slight_smile: Yay for Thanksgiving Break!!!

Ah, but I’d say you do have the gift of writing, Amy! You state things very clearly here.:slight_smile:

When I speak, I often follow it with, “Did that make sense?” to which I often am told, “Not a bit!” :laughing:

I tried the breathing thing, but it just hasn’t worked for my anxious self. (I am so uptight that sometimes I *forget *to breathe altogether! :laughing: )

Where do you live, by the way, Amy? Are you, like so many here, also in England?

Blessings to you (wherever you are!)

Kate

I’m not from England. I’d love to live there and have their neat accent! I hail from the beautiful state of…CA, so I can’t complain! It’s never too cold and never too hot for long.

I homeschool my two children, 10 and 6 years old. My daughter has pretty severe ADHD that I’ve not wanted to medicate yet. It’s for this reason, too, that I’m not as active here. I really love reading everyone and so many times wish to interject, but just can’t keep up. l’ll be reading all your great posts and stopping, when I can think of something worthy of contributing, to say hello. :slight_smile:

I was just thinking that the reason it helps to focus on your breath, is that, if you are thinking about it, you stop thinking/forget about all the other stuff that was previously on your mind.

Well, I suppose if we lived in England, we would not then “have” any accent at all – and perhaps we’d be jealous of the Americans! :laughing:

California is beautiful, and I’ve only gotten to go once. The weather there is just perfect – In Ohio, it can be blazing one day, freezing the next, and then pouring rain. Ohioans say that our weather is made up and our seasons don’t matter!

My brother and I are four years apart like your two children – it seemed like a great difference when we were 10 and 6, but as time progressed, we grew very close and the age difference doesn’t seem so drastic anymore. And I understand your wanting to wait to put your daughter on medication, and I’m sure homeschooling is very helpful. And, hey, my class’ valedictorian has ADHD and he’s doing just fine now.:slight_smile:

Blessings from the Midwest,

Kate

I wonder how we sound to them? If they think we sound awful, they aren’t saying anything, but I’ve also never heard of any foreigner particularly liking the way we speak.

If you ever visit, you are welcome to stay with us! We are near LA, in Southern CA. I often feel like I wish we had more of the seasons. One day blends into the next. Right now we are having some rain and cold, a nice change of pace and good soup weather!

This is nice to know! I wonder if he was on medication most of his life, not that you would know? This is really off topic, but I really worry, seeing as smart as my daughter is, if I’m seriously limiting her opportunities later in life by not helping her to become more productive sooner. So far she’s scored really well on the Star test, which is surprising given what struggle she has to attend for even 4 math problems a day! I medicated her those days with a Starbucks every morning and asked the barista to give his strongest dose of caffeine, so who knows.

And, since we are really off topic already…and I can’t remember where this was…I remember reading, Kate, your description of going to some Christian meeting where they are into wearing skinny jeans, etc., are into their own meetings, and aren’t very friendly. (Totally spot on with some of my experiences, btw.) Too bad, they are missing out on a good friend. You were probably too smart for them. :slight_smile:

Well, according to Dick, most American accents are “charming.” But maybe he’s just being kind. :laughing:

Southern California is so beautiful! I like the snow too much though to relocate further south permanently (plus, I sunburn like a piece of paper over an open flame!) And if you ever venture to Ohio, you’ll quite likely get your fill of all four seasons within just one week!

I don’t know much about ADHD, but I’d guess that it’s good to withhold medication if possible during those years of crucial brain development. At the moment, therapy and coaching would be very beneficial, I think, but then again, medication helps even the brain’s playing field for therapy and coaching. So it’s really a tough call. I do know, however, loads of kids who have succeeded despite ADHA, ADD, and other diagnoses that make learning difficult in the classroom – so of course, I see great hope for your daughter.

Haha, I was talking about Christian Hipsters. (You probably see a lot of hipsters out in California!) I can’t quite pinpoint why I didn’t feel quite comfortable among the Christian hipster crowd – I felt like I’d have to revamp my whole (rather boring) wardrobe for one thing! (And I’d need to buy a pair of thick-rimmed black glasses, but I can’t stand wearing glasses – I think my ears are lopsided! :laughing: ) And thanks, but I’m no Einstein (too many years spent crying over math. :stuck_out_tongue: )

I was going to say, as far as accents go, that when I visit places, like Tennessee, I start sounding like the people there. I can’t help it! If I went to England, I’m sure I’d start talking like them too.

It is a tough call. My daughter, Emma, has such a kind heart paired with enormous creativity. I’ll just stay patient and try to encourage her strengths, for now.

I’ve probably never heard of the Christian hipster crowd because that’s all we’ve got out here. Skinny jeans are everywhere! I’m less sure of the glasses, but I’m also not a fan! I hadn’t needed them until recently and really should wear them at night, but hate the boxed in feeling they give. When Sarah Palin made glasses with no rims in, I thought that was awesome! :laughing:

Hi Kate,

An inspiring thread already with so much help.

I only have 23 years to go to complete the hundred! And I can tell you prayer has for the most part been one long struggle, until only a few years ago, when I joined the weekly Bible Study Group at our St George’s Anglican Church here in Barcelona, and had a period of regular one to one meetings with our Chaplain Rev Drewtweedy as he is known on this forum, and joined this forum.
Persistence has also helped, but the struggles have become less and less.
What has been of great help and continues to be so, when the mind wanders or there may seem nothing new to say, is the regular use of well known prayers. Here are three that I pray regularly in answer to your opening question:

Praise and thanks: The Psalms-

Petitionary: Christ’s own prayer that he prayed and taught us to pray to His/Our Father - All the petitions, for self and for those we wish to pray for, are there! And each person can be named under the “umbrella” of the two first words OUR and FATHER and it helps to pray the words slowly, petition by petition.

Illness, suffering, difficulties, grief: very recently a very close friend died of cancer of the pancreas. During visits we shared as a prayer the words of St. Paul written by him when under great suffering:

“Though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being enewed every day. For this slight momentary affliction (there’s an understatement for you, Johnny!)is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.”

Silence: With the same friend during her illness we would end sharing silence

Dear Lord we kneel
And in silence seal
Our lips and mind
Befor our hearts
We cross our hand
And in yours
We trust our lives.

Blessings, Kate, and brothers and sisters!!

Michael in Barcelona

Good post, Michael.

Steve

Buenos tardes, Michael en Barcelona.:slight_smile: I often use “memorized” prayers, actually, because I feel they cover the words so I can better focus on directing my thoughts toward God. I grew up Catholic, and I still like to get out the little prayer book I got for my first Communion from time-to-time. There is something quite comforting, I find, in the simplicity of those short prayers.

Thanks, Michael – Blessings from Ohio,

Kate

Buenas Tardes Amigo

I learnt my only Spanish from WEEN.

vimeo.com/25743849