I knew you were being a pill, Auggy. 
I’m growing quite fond of your humor. No need to apologize because in about 10 seconds I’m going to say something that I’ll have to apologize for (again) and we may spend the next several minutes . . . or years like that. 
I don’t think Mag was saying you were begrudging me. I think he was speaking to be based on our previous conversations. Mag?
It is really difficult to communicate ideas and especially personalities in this form so, we just need to give each other a little more room and benefit of the doubt sometimes. That’s what I’m learning and growing in through our conversations and I appreciate everyone being patient with me for so long. Thank you all.
Hi Aaron,
I think the context of Hebrews 10:9 is specifically speaking about the animal sacrifices and declaring that through the Passover Lamb, we no longer sacrifice animals for sin. It is interesting that vs 5-8 are a quote from Psalm 40:6-8. Psalm 40:8 says, “I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy **law **is within my heart.”.
I think the priesthood and sacrifice still stand though they have changed. I also think, based on numerous NT scriptures, that God wants us to obey His law (not for salvation) but, with a right heart by the Spirit. Is that feasible based on your knowledge of scripture?
Great to hear your view, Aaron! May Yehovah bless you!
Kelly
Yep
It seems to me that we do keep the Ten when we live by the life of God within us. For example, someone mentioned murder a little bit earlier. We are still keeping the law about not murdering, but Jesus elevated it by quite a lot, to whit, that we aren’t even to call our brother a fool or to be angry with him without a cause. Likewise it’s not enough just to love the Lord our God and worship Him according to temple practices. We must worship in spirit and in truth, no matter where we happen to be geographically. We do not only eschew adultery; we don’t even look at a woman (man?) to lust. Not only do we not steal; we give our extra cloak to our fellow person in need. And not only do we not bear false witness against a neighbor, we don’t resist him if he sues us without cause. It isn’t good enough not to covet; we must even consider others as better than ourselves . . . you get the picture.
So I would submit that it isn’t good enough or even (for me, at least) pertinent to keep Saturday as the Sabbath. Jesus IS truly our Sabbath and we must be resting in Him every moment of every day. We do not dedicate one day a week to worship and contemplation, but rather every spare moment.
Now for me, it’s possibly a little easier than for many of you. I work part time, all my children are grown, and my husband is away at work most days. I spend a LOT of time seeking God, studying His word, listening to Him . . . contemplating Him, basically. I would do this all the time to the exclusion of laundry, dishes, making pottery, sweeping the floor, walking the dogs . . . oh, just about everything. But then He pricks my conscience and I have to go wash a dish. 
But hey, it’s pretty easy to go right on contemplating whilst washing dishes, etc. So for me, every spare moment truly is a little Sabbath.
I think it’s a great idea to take one day off a week and dedicate it solely to God, though I don’t do this. We meet together as a body on Saturdays (usually, unless someone has a conflict), and of course that means cooking and (if it’s at my house) cleaning, etc. I could do these things the day before, and I should, but it’s so much more fun to read my newest book or study out something I’ve been wondering about, that I always seem to put the work off until the last possible moment. Maybe I SHOULD take up Kelly’s practice. It would perhaps cure me of at least a little bit of that procrastination.
But seriously, I think it’s fine for anyone who feels God is so leading them to keep the Sabbath in any way they see fit. If God is telling my sister or brother to keep Sabbath, then I think she/he should do it. He hasn’t told me that, in so many words. You could say that He HAS – in scripture – if I’d only listen, but there’s at least as good a case against ritually keeping Sabbath as Christ followers as there is for it; possibly better. I am not struggling with my conscience here. If Jesus wants me to ritually keep the Sabbath, well I’m willing to do it. All He has to do is convict me of my sin (and He’s really good at that), but thus far, I feel absolutely no compunction to start doing it, so I’ll wait to hear from Him personally. That said, if He’s convicted others to keep the Sabbath rules as written down in the OT, then they should do that, and I applaud them for their obedience.
Love, Cindy
TV,
Don’t be too impressed, I can really make your head spin with absolute absurdity 
Just wait till I get rolling LOL!
On a serious note. Yes, I’m wondering why you don’t uphold those parts of the law? If God instruction to rest on the sabbath is moral, and his leadership requires that we kill Sabbath breakers, parent dishonoring children, or adulterers, Why do we not follow that leadership.
You’re asking me, if I don’t believe in the punishments for today, then why wouldn’t I commit adultery?
Because intuition tells me adultery is bad, but intuition tells me there’s nothing wrong with doing good work on Saturdays. My intuition tells me doing bad (evil) work on Saturdays is bad. But my intuition tells me doing bad (evil) work on ANY day of the week is bad.
I’m good with following morality - don’t commit adultery; murder; dishonoring parents; because they ONLY stem from love and the actual commands are shallow, which is why Jesus shows us how deep they really are. The truth is I think we can even break those commands and to right. For example, we may have to dishonor our parents to save them. We may have to lie to save jews. We may have to kill to save others and yet remain blameless.
If it’s impossible for God to lie. And the Devil is the father of all lies - then would you lie to Nazis in order to hide Jews?
Most Christians I meet (family included) argue they would not lie. Instead they would obey God’s command and hand the jews over to the murderers. I would say then God has placed you into a lose/lose situation. The right thing to do is lie. I embrace that because I don’t think the law is teaching us to “not lie” or “not murder” or “rest” - instead I believe cumulitive it’s teaching us to do justice, mercy which are from the one thing which Paul uses to sum it all up - LOVE.
Perhaps I’m wrong but that’s how I’ve dealt with such tensions.
Seems you’ve at least partially missed my point auggy. For it seems you don’t uphold “those parts” of the law either! That is, you don’t condone stoning for taking God’s name in vain, for adultery, or for dishonoring parents. Yet your unwillingness to stone that sort of lawbreaker in no way negates your respect and honor for the law itself! Why not? You don’t allow your non enforcement of the penalty for breaking commandments 3, 5 and 7 to diminish your embrace of those commandments at all: so why do you insist that I somehow must allow my unwillingness to enforce the “breaking” of the 4th commandment to equate with ignoring that commandment? Why the different set of rules here is all I want to know?
No, that’s actually not what I’m asking you. I’m simply asking why you don’t allow your unwillingness to enforce this commandment by stoning to alter your respect and keeping of that commandment. You don’t stone, yet still endorse the command; why can’t I be able to do that as well with the Sabbath command? And why would you be so eager to exempt yourself from keeping it too? From whence the confidence and initiative to carve that one out from the rest?
You seem to be trying to paint a dilemma for me with the assumption that it’s not a dilemma for you. But if it’s one for me, it is for you as well: that’s all I’m trying to get you to admit.
Have we now ceded the field of ethics and morality to intuition? How’d that work out in Judges – when every man did what what was right in his own eyes? Of course Romans also informs/reminds us that we all have consciences and inner guidance. Still, the “intuition” of the Germans in WW2 was that ridding the world of the Jewish race was a good thing… Something to contemplate…
But I’m bewildered at this idea that there should be any quarrel with the notion that there’s nothing wrong with doing good work on the Sabbath? For me that’s strawman pure and simple: for that’s exactly what Jesus was saying when HE did good on the Sabbath and thereby fulfilled it!
Whose gonna argue with following morality? But if you see in these commandments a shallowness that invites deeper exploration, why assume the same invitation does not exist for the Sabbath command?
Hey! It’s not ME who put it there! That seems to have been God’s idea. So why not see that command as an invitation to deeper understanding of it’s roots in love too?
Which is precisely what we see happening to the Sabbath command when acted out by Jesus… His actions were actually seen as violations – not embrace of the command. So there IS a “heart” behind all these commands; including the Sabbath one…
This insistence on carving out a separate class of respect and reverence for one particular Commandment yet bewilders me. I mean if the 10 represent the great “moral code” why on earth not at least exert effort to trying to discern why this particular one is included therein? That’s bugged me for a long time.
Now there’s another aspect which absolutely puzzles me: and that is this general Christian insistence on the Law somehow being done away with; being nailed to the Cross; new dispensation of grace instead of law and all that.
Hebrews 1 talks about the many and various ways God has spoken to us - but how the message has been perfected in the coming of His Son. To many this seems to convey a different message by the Son. A great many of you talk about a new covenant. As if it’s an entirely different and new message.
But it’s not: it’s the very same thing that mattered to God all along. Check out some of these beautiful passages which sound as if they “belong” in the New Testament…
How can this not be read as the core of what matters to God? An inner transformation of the heart? And the precise thing Jesus taught in the New Testament?
It’s been imagined that Jesus re-articulated the 10 commandments by summing them up as love of God and love of neighbor. No, all He was doing was reminding of already existent Old Testament ideas:
As for a new covenant? Not “new” really, but more like “RE-newed” (that is, in essence the very same one given to Abraham, and Job etc – for even Jeremiah was talking about the great internalizing of the law, which, when internalized we call “Love”.)
So the only way one can really “do away” with the law as I envision it, is to internalize it; to allow it to change our hearts. Which is the very thing God has always sought from those who worship Him!
Now somehow the Sabbath fits into that drama and progression. Whether we like it or not. Why else would it be right there in the midst of the Holy Oracles? I didn’t put it there, God did…
So the better question might be: what on earth could God have intended by placing this seemingly different command right in the midst of all the rest??
Why isn’t anyone asking That question??
Bobx3
(edited so as to not have Jeremiah quoting me! 
)
Beautifully said Bobx3! 
Yes, that is exactly what they would say, and it is true. For the original 10 commandments are recorded in Exodus 20:1-17, and there is not a word about giving the death penalty for breaking any of them. The 10 commandments simply instructed the Hebrews as how to live, and many today say this instruction is for all people of all ages.
Not to reduce the discussion down to mechanism here, but I’d like to add that God does everything for a reason. There have been actual scientific studies that show that taking a “sabbath” rest (not what they called it in the studies, but what it amounts to) is actually necessary to the well being of both people and animals. We all function at our best if we set aside one day per week to totally rest, because this is how we’re designed to function. God even set the precedent by resting on the seventh day (regardless of whether you believe it was a literal 24 hour day, the principle still applies).
No need to stone them, they ‘stone’ themselves!
God’s law was given for our benefit, not his. I’m not trying to be legalistic at all, in case anyone was wondering.
Interestingly, the law was given essentially as a substitute for direct communion with God. We don’t need the law when we are in communion with God, and so now that that has been made possible once more through Jesus, we no longer need to rely on the law, but rather on the embodiment of its fulfillment.
But it’s not impossible for God to lie. If it were, then God would not be omnipotent. It’s not that God CAN’T lie, but the He WONT lie, for it’s contrary to his nature. True, Hebrews 6:18 says that God is powerless to lie, but I don’t think that refers to God’s ability, but to His disposition. Lying is contrary to His nature.
On the other hand, if God is so averse to lying, why did He put a lying spirit in the mouth of His prophets to entice Ahab? (2 Kings 22:19-23). Also Rahab the harlot has been put in that great list of heroes and heroines of faith in Hebrews 11. How did she act in faith? She did not disclose the Hebrew spies, but told their pursuers that they had already left, when, in fact, they were hiding under the straw of her house.
John 8:44 declares the devil to be the father of lies, but it does not say that he is the father of ALL lies as you said in your post. Richard Wumrbrand, who was tortured for 14 years in a Romanian prison, wrote that it is RIGHT to lie to the Communists.
So yes, I would lie to the Nazis to save Jewish lives; in fact I would lie to anyone in order to save a life. For our moral obligation to save a life where possible overrides our moral obligation to refrain from lying. If you would not lie to save a life, then you are at least partially responsible for any loss of life which would ensue as a consequence. I think the Lord would hold you responsible for that death in the day of judgment. But if you lied to save save someone’s life, He would say, “Well done! Good and faithful servant!”
Well said Melchi and Paidion!
This is where I merge into the idea that walking in the Spirit with a right heart looks like keeping the commandments. Not that we keep them by the letter but, with a right heart in relationship with our Savior. This is where I’m at. It is hard to say “we don’t have to keep the law” when walking in the Spirit is an automatic keeping of the commandments. I don’t think we are “under the law” but, we uphold it in our relationship with Yeshua. Thanks for the clarity and common sense. Blessings and peace!
i cannot believe you know people that would elevate the “sin” of lying above the sin of murder.
in my view, not giving information to those who have no right to it is NOT lying.
the Nazi’s would have no right to the information that i had Jews hiding in my house, and therefore not giving this information would be right and good and proper.
misleading them would be proper to, as they are claiming rights to information which no one in their right mind could ascribe to them.
seriously worrying that there are people that would betray innocents because they think they are “lying”
that’s disgusting, and lowers them to a level below the nazi’s. and that’s hard to do.
if that’s a personal insult to anyone…i’m actually glad.
in fact, killing nazi’s could not be called murder, because you would be saving lives by doing so.
I appreciate all of the feedback regarding the upholding of morality. While some parts of TV’s points are regarding the issue of the law for today, I’d like to ask that we reserve that for the other thread (David’s unlawful act). I’m trying to leave the issue of obedience of the sabbath to the other thread of David’s unlawful act. So help me out here.
I’ll try to focus on the question of regarding the death penalty for sabbath breakers. I realize that’s being touched on in the other thread, but that thread has a huge menu of indivudal issue, and I believe they need to be addressed individually. I love that thread because it’s almost creating an outline for us for the future. I think we could hold a more formal discussion and have seperate parties (like in a debate) discuss the issues and ONLY allow two individuals like Steve (or TV) and Bob - since they’re so eloquent.
So on to the subject;
because I don’t see the death penalty is relevant to as to whether the command to honor parents or rest on saturdays is moral or not. But if that’s true, then we have to answer the question - is not obeying God’s command to kill the sabbath breaker an endorsement that breaking the sabbath is ok? Why not?
I think the issue I’m getting at is where do you see the moral line drawn of what laws are loving (moral) and what laws are not. If I understand Kelly right, she argues THE WHOLE LAW is loving and moral thus the whole must be upheld. But again, without dragging this back to “the law for today” - I’m hoping this thread is short (LOL - yea right) soi I can get a feel between the two diffrenet views, namely Kelly and the partials.
Bob, I see there’s a dillema here for everyone. I’m uncomfortable with saying God’s a liar. So on one hand I uphold God is true and NEVER lies, and on the other hand I agree with Corpselight.
Corpse, I’m not lying at all about people I know who elevate the sin of lying over the sin of murder. It’s a paradox for them - for on one hand God says he’ll never put is in a place where there is no escape (all choices lead to sin). On the other hand they see the command to tell the truth as being real and literal in every possible way - thus she (the person I know) claims she would have faith in God by obeying the commandment and trusting in God to protect the Jews.
Kelly - Thanks for hanging in there and for all that common sense 
, but I need more patience from you: Am I misunderstaind you or am I incorrect in saying you believe THE WHOLE LAW is moral and good and needs to be upheld?
– Again, I think these threads are great for outlines and will provide us with the differences we need to hold a real and serious discussion (not that these aren’t serious but they are sloppy and informal) –
with that sort of context, i can …almost see a logic there. at least it’s not monstrous obedience of an evil regime just to salve the conscience of a minor sin (at least in comparison to the far greater sin).
Corpse,
One detail regarding her reason is because in the scenario lying is not set up against murder. In other words, if she lies she breaks the commandment and doesn’t trust in God to protect the Jews. If she tells the truth, SHE IS NOT THE ONE COMMITING MURDER and she trusts God to protect the Jews. Thus she believes that it is right to tell the Nazi’s the truth and trust in God that the Nazi’s will do what is right (or perhaps God will miraculously save them).
TV,
As usual these discussions can get quite confusing. It seems obvious (not that it is) to me that I’m not required to hold stoning for any law because I regard the law as having deeper purpose. I don’t see any value in resting on Saturday any different than resting on Tuesday. Likewise, I see the Sabbath law (as Jesus draws out some parameters for us) that it’s unlawful to do evil work. If I’m really out to lunch on these grounds I’d like to hear why. To me it makes sense but NO ONE ever remarks on this and so I’m starting to think I’m irrational and not making much sense. When I argue that doing evil work is forbidden on the sabbath, and then prese doing evil work is forbidden on ANY day of the week, then I’m clearly stating it’s ok for working on any day of the week. Again, I see no moral argument to say Saturdays are better than Tuesdays because God says so. What if perhaps there was deeper meaning to the Sabbath and we misunderstand it? Nahhhh, our interpretations are flawless and thus the laws should not be questiond???
If someone says IT HAS TO BE SATURDAY, I’m called to test all things (You know Talbott’s paper regarding that). Why not test the law? Why not test the Sabbath? Why not?
I think better explanations of why Sabbath Saturdays are best, require more than just “because God said so”. Sadly it sounds alot like Aaron37 stating that I don’t have a problem with him but with God. But I trust you don’t mean to push that heavily. You know full well we’re not tempting or testing God, we’re testing your views on legal observations.
So back to this issue - I think we’re all in a sort of fog because we all don’t know where to draw this line.
Some argue it’s partial law (9). Some argue it’s the WHOLE THING (letter). Some argue it’s the whole (spiritual).
I feel placing the dillema back at me doesn’t quite get your view off the hook. Simply because I may be inconsistent doesn’t mean you’re not either. We have to dialogue and make sense of where we stand. So as someone who obeserves the Sabbath literally (resting on Saturdays), do you feel stoning should be enforced for Sabbath breakers? If so then would you qualify yourself as someone who believes PART of the law is for today but not every jot and tittle?
I don’t see Auggy saying that rejecting ‘executions’ means that we can’t follow any rules (if so I’d disagree). Just that this reality then requires us to ask for each rule that we think we should follow, “On what basis”? (e.g. like N.T. clarification) In that light, haven’t some traditions perceived that the 4th command is not just endorsed in the N.T. in the same way that the other 9 are? Isn’t that part of the reason that 7th day traditions haven’t predominated?
For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace. (Ephesians 2:14-15)
For me its pretty straightford, Christ came to fill up (literal meaning of the Greek word) the Law. In so doing he abolish the “law of the commandments in regulations (HCSB)” and established the law of the heart. This law is,
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.(Romans 13:8)
Frankly I say do away with the 10 commandments, we only need 2.
- Love God with everything
- Love others
All the other details are just semantics, the law of of commandments expressed in rules is abolished, now we trust in the law of liberty. Let us take Paul’s words seriously,
Now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (Romans 7:6)
No more obeying the written code of the Ten, now we are free to love and live in righteousness. Also it is a new covenant with better promises TotalVictory, read Galatians 3 and Hebrews 8. Please forgive me if I have misunderstood your posts
Dealing with the Sabbath itself Paul definitively answered what we should do when it comes to holy days,
**One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. (Romans 14:5-6) **
Don’t worry about petty things, God has a way of sorting those out. We are simply meant to love and follow the law of the Spirit. Remember, he’s the Spirit of truth(John 16) and his sword is the word of God (Eph 6:17), so following him does no harm to scripture or truth. So as for me I will fall into the arms of grace, carried by the Spirit to do the will of the Father. And dwelling in the love of Christ, I will produce lasting fruit, and is that not more important than all of our doctrinal differences?
No offense meant to any of you in your views. Let us all remember what David wrote, “The sum of your word is truth.”(Ps 119:160) Amen so let us learn from all parts of scripture, even Torah. Christ set us free for the sake of freedom, therefore do not submit yourselves again to a bond of slavery (Gal 5:1).
Awake,
Agreed. I see it as you do. But the challenge works both ways and that’s what they present. I have no issue (as Kelly thinks I do) if they want to hold Saturdays as a special day of the week. For me they’re all the same - permissible to do good work, never to do evil work - even while we work we are at rest (peace) with God.
Bob,
you are correct, I don’t hold to executions for not obeying any commandment. But I’m liberal - I agree with Awake and thus find love is the goal. But the other view is literal and therefore needs to explain or show where the line is drawn that tells us which laws are to be followed and why the others are not.
As an example, people who argue that the 10 are for today will abstain from pork but the food laws are not part of the 10.
So how do literalists (I realize that’s a misleading term, but I think you understand what I mean) avoid executions for law breakers.
Kelly seems to say if someone breaks the sabbath they’ll die anyways. I don’t accept that answer. Imagine if God told moses: “Mo! Take him out of the city and stone him!” to which Moses replies “Naaa! He’s dead anyways!”
If God’s instructiosn are to stone, then why not stone? So I see them as ignoring God’s command to kill lawbreakers even if the person is a) already dead or b) going to die naturally or c) going to die spiritually. Either way God’s command is to stone the sabbath breaker, homosexual, disobedient child, false prophet, god swearing sinner.
I think the line needs to be shown.
The law has been fulfilled by Christ. The OT sabbath was a type and shadow of Jesus.The sabbath is not about a day(Saturday) but what it actually represents.( rest in Jesus) Paul warned the Galatians and Hebrews of trying to mix the law with grace.
Galatians 1:6-9… 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The Greek word for** another** means altered. The Greek word for accursed means estrangement from Christ and of salvation. Paul was warning the Galatian Christian Jews if you mix the law with grace you are altering the gospel and you are to be accursed or in danger of losing your salvation. This teaching or preaching an altered gospel applies to any flavor of UR you might represent and preach. This also applies to the doctrine of inclusion ( let that sink in). Both are altering the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-29 are Paul’s warning to the Hebrew Christian Jews. This principle also applies to every Christian.
Sad, but true, you have numerous churches today that are doing the very thing Paul warned not to do.