Stoning Sabbath Breakers Today?

[auggybendoggy]

I’ve searched the net for reasons why those who believe the OT law is still literally for today in it’s jot and tittle do not believe sabbath breakers should not be put to death and came up empty handed.

The closest I’ve come is Lefein telling me about some conversation he’s had.

I’d like those who believe that Saurdays are important to keep as the sabbath and why God’s good instruction to kill sabbath breakers is not applicable today.

[Paidion]

I am not a Sabbath keeper, but I think I have the answer to your question.

Some people believe that only the 10 commandments apply perpetually to every age, but not the other Mosaic laws.

Thus one can consistently believe that he ought to keep the Sabbath from sundown Friday night until sundown Saturday night, but not believe that under the New Covenant, we should kill Sabbath breakers.

[auggybendoggy]

Paidion,
I’m not sure that applies. Those people would not qualify since they don’t believe the OT law literally is for today. They would be more of a “partial” law applies today - the 10.

But still for discussions sake, are you saying that such people would argue that the death penalty for breaking the 4th commandment is not in the 10 commandments?

[auggybendoggy]

Paidion,
Allow me to rephrase the question: What if someone believes that the whole law applies perpetually to every age?

[Revival]

I’ve searched the net for reasons why those who believe the OT law is still literally for today in it’s jot and tittle do not believe sabbath breakers should not be put to death and came up empty handed.

The closest I’ve come is Lefein telling me about some conversation he’s had.

I’d like those who believe that Saurdays are important to keep as the sabbath and why God’s good instruction to kill sabbath breakers is not applicable today.

Because the law has been fulfilled by Christ.The OT sabbath was a type and shadow of Jesus.The sabbath is not about a day but what it actually represents. Jesus Christ is our rest, he is our sabbath! Matt 11:28. Praise God!

[Kelly_S]

It is a strange idea to me to ignore something Jesus took great pain to fulfill.

[Bob_Wilson]

I think I see it much like Aaron (Revival). Seeing Jesus as the “fulfillment” of the Sabbath command’s ultimate purpose & meaning need not mean that we “ignore” the law. We should give deep consideration to how Jesus transforms the way God’s O.T. people tended to treat the law, what is the reality he brings that transcends it as a shadow and external code, and even consider how the rest called for in commandment 4 can and does still have abiding value and wisdom for us.

[Kelly_S]

Thanks, Bob!
We are also a shadow, a type of the temple. Our physical “temple” will be gone and we will become the spiritual temple completely and only one day. Until then, we are a shadow and type. But, how do we work that out? I believe The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has been showing us from the beginning.

[Bob_Wilson]

Hi Kelly,

Thanks! It does seem that we use similar words, even if our nuances can be different. I quite agree God has been “showing” us the way from the beginning. It’s just that believing that now Jesus stunningly most clearly reveals God and THE way, truth, and life, encourages my impression that without Jesus it was much easier to see the letter of Scripture and misconstrue what God really wants us to see.

[Kelly_S]

I can see what you mean, Bob. But, even before the written letter, He was the same and showed us the Sabbath from the creation account. Getting to know Jesus without understanding what following Torah in the Spirit would seem to make Him a false god but, seeing Him in Torah only makes us know Him as Alpha, as well as, Omega.

[Kelly_S]

Yeshua fulfills everything. So, if He fulfills everything does that mean there is nothing now for us in Him? No need for anything? If we throw off the sabbath because He fulfilled it we must also throw off all scripture for the same reason. It seems there is a bit of that here and it doesn’t seem an issue for those doing the throwing off. But, if the written scripture is thrown off all that is left is people pulling ideas out if their brain and calling it god. Then, there is no objective truth and everyone just does what’s right in his own eyes Sadly, that seems to be where “faith in Jesus” is going.

[auggybendoggy]

I didn’t really mean to start this thread as a second discussion as to whether the law should be followed. I’m hoping Kelly or anyone else might explain this point that if we’re to obey the WHOLE law, then do God’s commands of cleansing and punishment still apply today?

For example, God has instruction on how to cleanse from eating unclean foods or touching dead bodies. Do these apply? If not then who determines what is still applicable and what is not? How does that group make that determination?

[redhotmagma]

Yeshua fulfills everything. So, if He fulfills everything does that mean there is nothing now for us in Him? No need for anything? If we throw off the sabbath because He fulfilled it we must also throw off all scripture for the same reason. It seems there is a bit of that here and it doesn’t seem an issue for those doing the throwing off. But, if the written scripture is thrown off all that is left is people pulling ideas out if their brain and calling it god. Then, there is no objective truth and everyone just does what’s right in his own eyes Sadly, that seems to be where “faith in Jesus” is going.

Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

17But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself?

Here we are contrasting again those who rely on the written law, vs. those who rely on the law on the heart. the written law does no good without the spiritual understanding, if they pay no attention to their conscience, like the good gentiles do

1 Co 2:6Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.c

14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

I’m not saying we throw the scripture away. But our conscience is where the rubber meets the road. We are called to be one with Christ, we have the mind of Christ. My sheep hear my voice. That is how we determine what is supposed to be followed. Each mans conscience affirming or denying him. Like I wrote in the sabbath desecration thread, each person is at a different place, and each person is given different understanding by God, and I believe we are never out of God’s will. If you believe that you’re supposed to follow the letter to the…erm letter , then thats what you’re supposed to be doing at that moment. It may change. God is in complete control. we are all part of a grand story, when people ask why do we suffer, or why does God allow ECT to be taught? I say because thats all part of the plan. We keep looking at it through our own life, but if we realize that we are part of the bigger picture, we are where we are cus thats His plan.

I know this may seem contradictory, but I also believe He wants us to be pushing forward, pressing in, to come to the knowledge of the truth and to the stature of the mature man. So we have some measure of free will, as we are to discern good and evil, which again is why I don’t think we are to hang on to the letter for ever, because once we are grown to the age we don’t need a schoolmaster, we’re set on our own to be able to discern good and evil. But we don’t do it on our own, we aren’t just making it up as we go along. Our conscience confirms or denies

(speaking of sabbath rest )
Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

We enter the rest by resting from our works, by not relying on our own understanding whether it comes from the written word or what we deem right, but allowing the mind of Christ(word of God) to do its work in us

[Kelly_S]

I didn’t really mean to start this thread as a second discussion as to whether the law should be followed. I’m hoping Kelly or anyone else might explain this point that if we’re to obey the WHOLE law, then do God’s commands of cleansing and punishment still apply today?

For example, God has instruction on how to cleanse from eating unclean foods or touching dead bodies. Do these apply? If not then who determines what is still applicable and what is not? How does that group make that determination?

Hi Auggy,

I think I answered this somewhat in my last post on the other thread.
In light of the NT reiterating the importance of keeping the commandments (or upholding the law, as Paul puts it), what do you do when you sin against God by breaking them?

[Kelly_S]

Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

17But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself?

Here we are contrasting again those who rely on the written law, vs. those who rely on the law on the heart. the written law does no good without the spiritual understanding, if they pay no attention to their conscience, like the good gentiles do

1 Co 2:6Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.c

14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

I’m not saying we throw the scripture away. But our conscience is where the rubber meets the road. We are called to be one with Christ, we have the mind of Christ. My sheep hear my voice. That is how we determine what is supposed to be followed. Each mans conscience affirming or denying him. Like I wrote in the sabbath desecration thread, each person is at a different place, and each person is given different understanding by God, and I believe we are never out of God’s will. If you believe that you’re supposed to follow the letter to the…erm letter , then thats what you’re supposed to be doing at that moment. It may change. God is in complete control. we are all part of a grand story, when people ask why do we suffer, or why does God allow ECT to be taught? I say because thats all part of the plan. We keep looking at it through our own life, but if we realize that we are part of the bigger picture, we are where we are cus thats His plan.

I know this may seem contradictory, but I also believe He wants us to be pushing forward, pressing in, to come to the knowledge of the truth and to the stature of the mature man. So we have some measure of free will, as we are to discern good and evil, which again is why I don’t think we are to hang on to the letter for ever, because once we are grown to the age we don’t need a schoolmaster, we’re set on our own to be able to discern good and evil. But we don’t do it on our own, we aren’t just making it up as we go along. Our conscience confirms or denies

(speaking of sabbath rest )
Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

We enter the rest by resting from our works, by not relying on our own understanding whether it comes from the written word or what we deem right, but allowing the mind of Christ(word of God) to do its work in us

I’m with you on this, Mag. I love it that you use scripture, it’s a blessing to me. I don’t depend on the law for my salvation but, to extend your idea a little more . . .
We have the mind of Messiah. We have the Spirit of Yehovah, who writes the law on our hearts and minds. Jesus spoke only what the Father told Him. So isn’t the law of Yehovah’s Spirit and the Father’s words what we are to obey? If Jesus spoke only what the Father told Him, where do we come up with this new, different law? If Yehovah’s Spirit is within us, why is there a new and different law written on our hearts? Yehovah wanted all His people, in all time to follow the Spiritual law. The letter kills only if you are trying to earn your own way to God by it. How can it kill those for whom Yeshua died? We do walk in Spirit and Truth. If the words are the Father’s and the law is the Father’s and the Father’s Spirit wrote the law on our hearts, wouldn’t our consciences condemn or acquit us based on Jesus’ words and actions (which came from the Father) and the Spirit of Yehovah’s law inscribed on our hearts? And so, wouldn’t following the law of liberty, or following the letter of the law merely be a matter of whether we obey God out of a right heart and walk in the Spirit verses working to earn our own salvation by keeping the law apart from the Savior? It’s us that needs the change of heart, not Him.
Thank you for your posts, they give me a lot to think about.

[TotalVictory]

Hi Auggy:

Again, I must say I am entirely bewildered by what you seem to be asking here.

Unless I’m mistaken, your mockery of the literalness of the Sabbath commandment intends for us to conclude that since we no longer hold that death for Sabbath Breakers is valid or appropriate, that must mean the entire Sabbath Command must be irrelevant now. That since we no longer hold to the literalness of stoning Sabbath Breakers, we no longer need to take the Sabbath itself as literal. Or something like that.

But it doesn’t even take close inspection to watch that notion fall completely apart.
Consider:

Why didn’t you phrase your question/post like this…

“DIE 5TH COMMANDMENT BREAKER! DIE!”

Deut 21:18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death.

Since you surely don’t believe in stoning rebellious back talking children, that must mean you no longer take the command to honor ones father and mother literally or seriously right??

or this…

“DIE (3RD COMMANDMENT BREAKER) BLASPHEMER! DIE!

Lev 24:11 The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name with a curse; so they brought him to Moses. (His mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri the Danite.) 12 They put him in custody until the will of the LORD should be made clear to them.
13 Then the LORD said to Moses: 14 “Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him.

Since you surely don’t believe in stoning those who break the 3rd commandment, that must mean you no longer feel obligated to keep literally the 3rd commandment right??

or this…

“DIE ADULTERER (7TH COMMANDMENT BREAKER)! DIE!”

Lev 20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

Since I’m sure you don’t condone putting to death those who commit adultery, that must mean you no longer believe that we are to take the 7th commandment literally right??

So, why don’t you tell me how our changed practice with regard to enforcing commandments 3, 5 and 7 does not negate the commandment itself? Tell me why the inconsistency on your part?

Bobx3

[I_sit_in_Awe]

Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

17But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself?

Here we are contrasting again those who rely on the written law, vs. those who rely on the law on the heart. the written law does no good without the spiritual understanding, if they pay no attention to their conscience, like the good gentiles do

1 Co 2:6Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.c

14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

I’m not saying we throw the scripture away. But our conscience is where the rubber meets the road. We are called to be one with Christ, we have the mind of Christ. My sheep hear my voice. That is how we determine what is supposed to be followed. Each mans conscience affirming or denying him. Like I wrote in the sabbath desecration thread, each person is at a different place, and each person is given different understanding by God, and I believe we are never out of God’s will. If you believe that you’re supposed to follow the letter to the…erm letter , then thats what you’re supposed to be doing at that moment. It may change. God is in complete control. we are all part of a grand story, when people ask why do we suffer, or why does God allow ECT to be taught? I say because thats all part of the plan. We keep looking at it through our own life, but if we realize that we are part of the bigger picture, we are where we are cus thats His plan.

I know this may seem contradictory, but I also believe He wants us to be pushing forward, pressing in, to come to the knowledge of the truth and to the stature of the mature man. So we have some measure of free will, as we are to discern good and evil, which again is why I don’t think we are to hang on to the letter for ever, because once we are grown to the age we don’t need a schoolmaster, we’re set on our own to be able to discern good and evil. But we don’t do it on our own, we aren’t just making it up as we go along. Our conscience confirms or denies

(speaking of sabbath rest )
Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

We enter the rest by resting from our works, by not relying on our own understanding whether it comes from the written word or what we deem right, but allowing the mind of Christ(word of God) to do its work in us

I’m with you on this, Mag. I love it that you use scripture, it’s a blessing to me. I don’t depend on the law for my salvation but, to extend your idea a little more . . .
We have the mind of Messiah. We have the Spirit of Yehovah, who writes the law on our hearts and minds. Jesus spoke only what the Father told Him. So isn’t the law of Yehovah’s Spirit and the Father’s words what we are to obey? If Jesus spoke only what the Father told Him, where do we come up with this new, different law? If Yehovah’s Spirit is within us, why is there a new and different law written on our hearts? Yehovah wanted all His people, in all time to follow the Spiritual law. The letter kills only if you are trying to earn your own way to God by it. How can it kill those for whom Yeshua died? We do walk in Spirit and Truth. If the words are the Father’s and the law is the Father’s and the Father’s Spirit wrote the law on our hearts, wouldn’t our consciences condemn or acquit us based on Jesus’ words and actions (which came from the Father) and the Spirit of Yehovah’s law inscribed on our hearts? And so, wouldn’t following the law of liberty, or following the letter of the law merely be a matter of whether we obey God out of a right heart and walk in the Spirit verses working to earn our own salvation by keeping the law apart from the Savior? It’s us that needs the change of heart, not Him.
Thank you for your posts, they give me a lot to think about.

Kelly,

I agree with Both Redhot and you. You both bring up great points and reminders.

The letter of the law is useless without the Spirit. The commands of God can only be properly followed when we are given a new heart and Spirit of God. The meaning of the scripure can’t even be understood without our new man and God’s Spirit revealing it. I would agree that our concience confirms the law of the lord as true and right. Gentiles didn’t even need the law of the lord as it was written on their minds.And me a gentile, when I study scripture, it only confirms what I already know to some extent.

I love how Ezekial shows this point. The Prophets saw our day, the day when we would be able to live by the law of the lord, because of the New Heart and Spirit of Christ indwelling us.

Ezekial 36:26-27

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws

Compare this Collosians verse to the Ephesians verse. The Word of Christ Is synoymous with the Spirit of God.Notice the result is the same in both epistles. When filled by God we have gratitude in our hearts and are motivated to praise God in Song.

Collosians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God

Ephesians 5:18
be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ

Notice Jesus words regarding the situation.

John 17

vs 6 I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word…For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them.

vs 14 *I have given them your word *and the world has hated them

vs 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth

vs 20 I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you

So, I believe the Literal Universal Laws of the Lord, when obeyed from the right heart, are 100 percent synchronized with walking in the Spirit. Not something different altogether.

God Bless you Both!!

[auggybendoggy]

I’m hearby changing the name. When I first wrote it I laughed. But I read Kelly saying to magma that he didn’t begrudge her and when I revisited this thread, I realized - perhaps once again my humor has come off very poorly.

Let me say publicly - I’m sorry for begrudging you Kelly. I meant no dis-respect and will try to remember that I have to be more careful.

Aug

[Revival]

I didn’t really mean to start this thread as a second discussion as to whether the law should be followed. I’m hoping Kelly or anyone else might explain this point that if we’re to obey the WHOLE law, then do God’s commands of cleansing and punishment still apply today?

For example, God has instruction on how to cleanse from eating unclean foods or touching dead bodies. Do these apply? If not then who determines what is still applicable and what is not? How does that group make that determination?

No, because there is no more Old covenant in God’s eyes it has been replaced by the New covenant. Hebrews 10:9. God taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

[Bob_Wilson]

I’ve tried to limit my case on the Sabbath to the previous “Desecration” thread, and its’ antecedent! But I will say that interpretations of how this commandment applies today seem to be diverse among various Christian traditions. And if someone (e.g. Wheaton’s N.T. prof, Doug Moo) argues that the N.T. does not call us to just keep O.T. law, then just labeling it as a “strange” idea that “throws off (O.T.) Scripture” or “what God has said,” seems to evade the issue. What seems essentially required in the question is engaging the New Testament texts that are at issue. E.g. one either thinks that the N.T. would or would not call us to obey what the Torah specifies on punishments. But debating that requires wrestling with how to make sense of what the New Testament reveals. And I would think that the same requirement is true in examining the application of any other prescription in the Torah.