The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Suicide and Christian Universalism


thank you for your posts. I am under “pain management” but it is patches and pills, I have screws in my back and they may need to be removed but I have no real guarantees it will work. I am tired, spent , insane almost with it all over the last years. I have seeked and sought but I sense no guidance from God in all of this. From my apostate years I really am not sure about who I am in God except that i believe in his existence but have no idea how he helps us when we really screw ourselves up by our own decisions. this one has taken my life away and I may finally really take it because it is all really becoming unbearable. The loss of friends, job and purpose, bodily strength, love, the isolation is all human depravation to a point I didn’t think existed except in POW camps. The body is a cage/cell contained within the prison of the home. I have to decide soon whether to go ahead with this surgery or not. Waiting on a fusion to fuse when the hardware is not real strong is the man issue. Docs agree that the old screws need to be removed and stronger ones with rods put in. they disagree as to when , 2 say now, 2 others say wait 3-6 months but I don’t know if I can. I have meds and other means to end it, mine would not be case of a moment of insanity but a clear choice to leave the body to get out of the painful cage, the way a raped child would run away from home to get away from the monster dad. My spine has been raped and I let it happen. and in the same way a child that has had that happen and knows they are permanently changed and damaged so am I. The aching and stabbing is torment. I actually kind of know what ECT feels like now in an earthly way. choices that led to this causing permanent unreversible damage and pain, knowing you allowed it and it can’t be taken back. I can’t imagine an eternal spiritual version of this. I can only pray that Gods mercy triumphs over judgement as I feel I have paid in my body for my choices and that Christ has suffered for and with me in this and that the Father accepts the Sons sacrifice and intercessions for me no matter what. I am human and am being broken in body mind and spirit. Alone and without love in my life it is just too sad to bear. We tend to think of heaven and hell as places we go according to what we believe and do (or not). When I believe it is about just being with and knowing God, knowing and getting nearer to Him, that is the heaven. At this point i can’t think of anywhere Id rather be. I am so afraid of facing life this way, Living more years like this with no reprieve. It is not sane or humane for us to do so. We put down pets for less and consider it kindness. I am also afraid of facing God for such an act. I know I have value to the world but it is slowly being eroded away as I become less able to give it, pain erodes the value of a life in every way, just as time and the elements erode valuable things that are naked to them, finally they end up worthless, skeletons of what they once were. I see this in me every time I look at myself. Its good to be here, framing my issues in a spiritual way. My fire right now is purifying me, how much I can endure before burning up we shall see. Love to all Phil.


Thanks Jason, to be as clear as you, I am not looking for any such permission or support from the forum for such an act. We are each responsible to God and others for our actions . I only am hoping for open dialogue and online companionship as I go thru this horrible period of my life. this is in a way easier as no one in the forum has to see me , the anonymity is a blessing in a weird way. Only I know what Im experiencing so only I can make these ugly choices. If the discussion gets to uncomfortable then I will not be hurt or offended if my posts are not approved. but I know that others are facing similar issues, so maybe someone else will be helped. If the thread is removed I would understand, Thanks again. Phil


I don’t think there will be any problem about post-approval (and we haven’t deleted this thread yet, although a prior member deleted his or her start to the thread and some discussion).

Relatedly, though: all new members are sent by the forum engine to a spamcatcher for their first three or four or five posts, as a standard operating procedure. An admin or mod checks the spamcatcher on a semi-regular basis (I try to do so once a day, but sometimes miss especially on the weekends), and regardless of the topic as long as the new member seems to be something other than a philosophical zombie (i.e. an internet bot :wink: ) or a live spammer, then we let them through. After enough posts the system will start letting the new member through automatically henceforth.

It’s just a way to keep out bots or people trying to sell shoes or essays or warcraft gold (haven’t seen one of those in a while).


Jason said:

That’s very good council, and I pray the same. Thanks Jason :smiley:


I think about this everyday, and have for the last three years. I have chronic fatigue due to sleeping problems (diagnosed as such anyway). I lost my job and find it incredibly hard to do anything. I used feel really good, though my life wasn’t stellar. I could live with that though. Now it’s just fatigue, day in and out. The line between doing it and not doing it is really just a line. If I stop wearing my seat-belt because the thought of doing things to preserve my life are obscene to me, then that is a form of suicide. Jesus said that if you hate your brother then you are as guilty of killing him in cold blood as if you really did it. But what of one who hates his own life? Isn’t he then guilty of suicide?

I’ve already done the deed; my body is waiting to catch up.


G’day Andre… if you haven’t done so already it could help for you to chat with someone on a 24hr freecall ‘suicide helpline’… IOW get some help/support around you.

No-one has magic answers to feeling better for when you’re feeling crap, BUT talking stuff out (as opposed to hanging onto it and ruminating) with someone with a caring listing ear can do the world of good in helping to lower levels of dangerous or potentially dangerous perturbation.

You owe it to yourself mate!


Suicide help lines are worthless. Plus there’s the added bonus of maybe having cops making a visit*. My trouble is my ailment; if I would wake up everyday, or even most days feeling rested, I would be remarkably undepressed. Contrary to what our optimistic culture teaches, some things are hopless; some things can’t be fixed. And sometimes suicide is the only option.

*I did call a hotline once and she threatened to send cops.


Suicide help lines, are staffed by volunteers. Most volunteers are not professionals. They only talk to folks and guide them to resources. Professionals are licensed medical professionals, therapists, psychologists, and clergy members. That’s whom to consult for answers.

Although from my world view…answers can be found via homeopaths, that are also licensed, medical doctors…and the appropriate spiritual healers or spiritual healing groups, if you can find them.


I’ve been through the doctors thing; psychologists and the like can’t help me. There is nothing wrong with me psychologically, in fact there is everything right with me. If I was to awaken feeling rested I would be remarkably undepressed. I’m not different from people who live with chronic pain. Quality of life matters, and the quality of mine is awful due to a illness that came on literally overnight. I don’t subscribe either to the idea that suffering is a virtue, none of that Viktor Frankl nonsense. I’m tired of being tired everday; nothing in this world is worth the trouble.


I went through a period of my life, where I was searching for something deeper. So I did three avenues of exploration - over the years:

Let me see what academia has to offer, by taking a bunch of philosophy, literature, creative writing, psychology and theology courses
Let’s see what I can experience experimentally, by hanging out with the Native Americans, Buddhists, Sufis, Folks from the East, and healers
Let me learn the fruits of homeopathy, by studying with the “experts”

I still have my Christian worldview, which taps into Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic mystical theology, within an Anglican framework.

Now I’m happy I took that lifetime, exploratory journey. Even if now, I find that Holy Fools, P-Zombies, Zombies, Geeks and Nerds, offer me more in company and companionship, than most of humanity :exclamation: :laughing:


All I want out of life is either to wake up rested or its end.


I found today’s Catholic refection from Richard Rohr Meditation: Worldview of Abundance - fascinating. Perhaps it might be useful (i.e. see


I don’t believe that. God is welcome to prove it to me though.


Much in life is NOT God proving things to us. But us testing the waters - in faith - to see if things are true or not. I’ll share here, what I shared with friends and relatives. Regarding a personal healing journey, I have been going through.

One thing I have learned, is the importance of ceremony. It’s actually more important than healers, traditional medical doctors and tests, and alternative modalities (homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine).

It’s not just any ceremony. But those that are authentic, genuine, and passed down through the generations. Like:

The healing masses of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox
the spiritual ceremonies, of the Native Americans
The Vedic file ceremonies

The ceremonies can add, the element of prayer. And call on the spirits (in Native American ceremonies), and the saints (in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, healing masses).

And this is perhaps why…the Roman Catholic priest, with the gift of healing and hearing God speak - that I know…Has a great success rate. His healing is done after the performance, of a healing mass. A ceremony handed down, since the time of Christ (or shortly thereafter).

And some folks do use both traditional ceremonies, passed down through the ages. And also do newer ceremonies. Like I have friends, who are Roman Catholic. Some practice the Japanese ceremony of Johrei. Others practice the healing meditation ceremony, of the Bruno Groening circle of friends. And Black Elk and Fools Crow, have been medicine men, holy people and Roman Catholics

And this is perhaps why…the Roman Catholic priest, with the gift of healing and hearing God speak - that I know…Has a great success rate. His healing is done after the performance, of a healing mass. A ceremony handed down, since the time of Christ (or shortly thereafter).

Each week, I preform Medicine Man, Russell Four Eagles, grandma’s fire ceremony. And the pipe ceremony, that I have learned from:

Lakota 2 Feathers Medicine Clan and Duke Big Feather
Ute medicine man Joseph Many Horses

Yes, I have seen the:

traditional medical doctors, and worked with the pills, exams and medical tests.  And I am taking their acid reducer pill
I have seen the homeopathic doctor and am taking his homeopathic remedies
I am taking the Ayurvedic tonic Chwawanprash and the Tulsi leaf tea.
I have taken the herbal teas, given by the medicine man, Russell 4 Eagles.

I don’t mind if folks want to give modern medicine the benefit - for example. Even though in the US, the World Health Organization has rated us around #32 - for Quality. With Singapore around #1 and most European countries surpassing us.

If I were to use healers, here are my favorites:

And these groups:

Actually, traditional medicine, spiritual healing, complimentary healing modalities (i.e. homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese medicine), prayer and ceremonies, work on different aspects or levels.

And I know these healers and healing organizations well.

So pick what you wish, to give credit to. I really don’t mind. And you can thank either the:

Medical specialist, making perhaps a million a year
The homeopath with 3 unpublished homeopathic volumes, of several hundred pages
The Two Fathers Medicine Clan, Medicine Man Joseph Many Horses, Spiritual leader Joseph Big Feather and medicine man Russell Four eagles

Take your pick. You can read about Chyawanprash at

Yesterday, I invited my female cousin and her husband to lunch. They are surprised that i am coming out of this crisis - relatively untouched. And they only believe in traditional medicine. I probably have them scratching their heads a bit. Trying to explain my healing progress, in the Newtonian framework of traditional medicine.


Randy, I don’t mean to pry - oh for heaven’s sake, of course I DO mean to pry :blush: - have you shared or will you share what your (very interesting) healing journey is about?
Sorry if I missed the post(s) where you’ve already explained this.


Sure, Dave. Internal bleeding taking place. Which stopped. And when the GI specialist did his exam, he saw no evidence of it. And low iron count and low red blood cell count. Which was back to normal, after a second blood test - about 2 or 3 weeks afterwards. Then I had the GI specialist’s exam (not sure the technical name for it). But it’s looking at the upper and lower GI track. The only thing remaining, is what they label Esophagitis and GERD. Which is relatively easy to deal with, from the perspective of things like spiritual healing, homeopathy, Ayurveda and Native American herbal lore. But for the traditional GI specialist, he prescribed a generic acid blocker - which I am taking.

I also have pressure, in the left eye optic nerves. Which no functional cause is found by:

The ophthalmologist dilating the pupils and conducting an eye exam
The Optometrist, with his high-tech equipment
An MRI (before and after contrast done), and finding the MRI normal, by both a radiologist and neurologist
Oriental pulse dianosis

The optic nerve pressure is a bit tricky. As nothing is found - by traditional medicine. And homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine, that yet to hit on the right remedy. Again, maybe a healing occurred. But I still don’t feel the benefits.

Spiritual healing and ceremonies…as well as alternative modalities (like homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine), can take some time. After all, this is not Christ…doing his healing miracles, in the Bible - mind you.

Prescription drugs can be expensive - in the US. Which is why I like the Trump idea…to let Medicare negotiate with the pharmaceutical companies. Another idea in a recent AARP article, is to allow folks to get them from Canada.


Thanks. I’m no stranger to esophagitis, though in my case it had progressed to what is called Barrett’s Syndrome, a pre-cancerous condition caused by an excess of stomach acid continually flooding the esophagus. 4 ulcers.

The acid reducers, in combination with Gaviscon before bed, are working. Have to get an upper endoscopy every few years though.

Your experience is more interesting!!


Hi, Dave. Well, my female cousin’s husband - has a similar condition. But he needs surgery and gets it done periodically - at Rush. Medicine man Russel Four Eagles, cured his father of cancer, by a mixture of maple syrup and baking soda. Don’t ask me why it would work. I have no clue. But he’s also having me take that, which will probably prevent any cancer from forming.

A light bulb just turned on. That’s why he is having me take it. :bulb:

In fact, let me share medicine man’s own cancer treatments in 2013, for educational purposes only. Which one should only use, to compliment what traditional medicine is doing.

Anyway, the Christian site Patheos, had an interesting article today:

If I Have Enough Faith, Will God Heal Me?

Or watch the youtube video, referrenced in the article:

I like the words of Christ, shared in this video. When Christ said, this is why I have come. Reminds me of a saint from the East, I’ve spend time with. You can get the book on Amazon. This House Is On Fire: The Life of Shri Dhyanyogi by Shri Anandi Ma (Author). People were lined up for healings. And he left shortly afterwards. Saying something to the same effect: “This is not my work”.

In other words, both Christ and Shri Dhyanyogi, had other missions. Missions ordained by God. Even though they could both heal, healing was NOT their mission.

Here’s what I have shared - in another forum thread here:

Some of my friends and relatives, believe that only modern medicine heals.

That goes against everything I have learned in life. Yes, it has its place. And it has its purpose.

But how did folks get healed, before modern medicine came alone?

They got healed by the herbal traditions of Ayurveda, Traditional Chinese Medicine and the herbal lore, of Native American herbs.

Or they get healed by the proper homeopathic remedy. Where I studied for years, under a master homeopath

Or they get healed by spiritual healing traditions, of the Native Americans. Where I spent years, with the Two Features Medicine Clan. Participating in their ceremonies (i.e. Like the pipe ceremony). I have felt the power myself.

Or by a Roman Catholic priest, with the gift of healing. Whom I attended his healing masses - for years. Of which I have felt the power, of his touch of the Holy Spirit.

Or doing the healing meditation, of the Bruno Groening Circle of Friends. Where every published healing, is medically verified.

Or with healers and masters, from the East. Where I have hung around such folks, as Dhyan Yogi Madhusudan .And I know many people, healed by mantras he gave them.(see book on Amazon, This House is On Fire by Shri Anandi Ma (Author) or Beyond the Lodge of the Sun: Inner Mysteries of the Native American Way by Chokecherry Gall Eagle. Or the biography of Native American medicine man and Holy person - Fools Crow, written by Lutheran minister Thomas E. Mails (Author).

Actually, if I wasn’t doing some of this things, things would have been much worse.

Either the things I have experienced are quite real. Or they are not. There is no in between.

Which means that Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox saints do not heal. The Charismatic church tradition is a hoax. Mantras from the east and the Native American pipe ceremony - can’t heal. All the cases in the Bruno Groening schooling letters are baloney.

I haven’t experienced that.

But on the other hand, I have no problems, also working with modern medicine. Especially when it’s cost affordable (i.e. like a Medicare advantage plan). Or some country has universal health care.

It ties the healing to Christianity - this way. There is Holy Spirit healing. But the Eastern Orthodox, talk about God’s essence and energies. We can’t know his essence, but we can know his energies. Tapping into God’s energies, is what produces RC and EO saints. But a Sufi master, can tap into the energies, and use them for passing on spiritual transformation - to students. A healer like the German healer, Bruno Groening, can use this energy for healing purposes.And some sacred items, can concentrate this energy. Like an awakened, Native American pipe. Or the Christian Eucharist - when properly concentrated.

Ultimately, God is the healer. But he works through both modern medicine, alternative medicine, prayer and healers.

After all, look at Luke in the bible. He saw all the healing miracles of Christ, Paul and the Apostles. But he was a physician also and never renounced being one.

Well, read what the video and corresponding article has to say - on this subject. Then read what I have said. Then test the waters for yourself. And make up your own mind.


None of that hocus-pocus is going to keep my airway from collapsing at night leaving me exhausted the following day (and the day after that, and the day after that). If alternative medicine worked, it would be called “medicine.”


Spiritual healing is NOT “hocus pocus”. Even in the Christian RC and EO church traditions, the Christian Charismatic tradition, and the Native American spiritual traditions…They still say that, it is alive and well. But it’s up to you, to conduct the search. And discover the truth for yourself. I can only say that it is alive and well - in my experience. And should be used, in conjunction with traditional medicine and the ancient medical traditions.