The writer of Revelation had a vision that he described in detail. At one point in his vision, he saw Jesus returning:
Re 1:7 Look! He is coming with the clouds…
Immediately afterward, he predicts that when He does come EVERYONE will see Him! It will not be a secret coming, but EVERYONE will know that it is He!
… every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and on his account all the tribes of the earth will wail. So it is to be. Amen.
Davo, you wrote:
Coming from you, given your previously professed positions on Revelation these quotes above carry absolutely no weight of credible argument at all…
It appears that these quotes carry absolutely no weight with you, either—and you profess to believe Revelation.
I can’t figure out, if I’m coming or going. Should I wait for the future tribulation, for the coming Zombie Apocalypse ? Or should I look to 70 AD…And seek out a conspiracy theory - that covered this up? And if Christ is coming back in 2040, then when will the zombies arrive?
Well Paidion that’s ONLY your say-so. As I understand it… the Coming of the Son of Man in the Glory of the Father was simply Jesus’ apocalyptic rhetoric in kind with the prophetic nuances of the day, being indicative of Jesus’ right hand of God authority in that coming Day of Judgment.
To ‘come on the clouds’ was classic Hebraic language for God executing judgment… something that literally occurred and usually in terms of foreign invasion, e.g., Babylon. So God’s “coming” though literal and physical was understood accordingly as the invading forces — NOT God’s personal physical presence. Jesus’ parousia of AD70 is to be understood in EXACTLY the same terms, i.e., “in the glory of the Father” — that is, in the same manner as past history. Example:
Ezek 30:1-3The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, “Son of man, prophesy and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Wail, ‘Woe to the day!’ For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.
Lk 21:24And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Christ’s parousia is history… it has happened as He said it would. As a result of Christ’s Cross and Parousia God redeemed all Israel and reconciled all humanity — this is the “good news” of the restoration of man.
Thus the pantelist perspective views this as complete with the so-called ‘already not yet’ language of the NT reflecting this transitional period approx. AD30-70 — 40yrs, a biblical generation, i.e., Jesus’ “this generation” — it all seamlessly flows together.
To be fair to Davo. The essentials or basics are probably plain and simple - whatever they are. But the church fathers…along with the reformers…and the churches and theologians…have various opinions, on what someone might think…is plainly stated in the Bible.
I saw a great movie today. It was talked about, in the Patheos evangelical newsletter at ‘A Quiet Place’: A Story of Sacrifice in an Age of Self-Interest. Well, it’s a well constructed - end times scenario. It has excellent ratings, on BOTH IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes. And much worse than anything, the AMC shows The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead - can portray. Anything can probably be made, to fit into the Book of Revelations. Not that this movie is doing it - mind you.
This is such a lame and lazy retort! You seem to bring it out whenever you can’t give a cogent answer to the texts and reasoned rationale explaining such. One can only conclude you’d prefer to annexe those texts from the bible as well… or have you already beat me to the punch on that score?
Clearly in your enthusiasm to run the sword through in disdain you read right over…
To ‘come on the clouds’ was classic Hebraic language for God executing judgment… something that literally occurred and usually in terms of foreign invasion, e.g., Babylon.
I have given many “cogent answers” and “reasoned rationale” to your irrational theology, but it’s effect upon you is like water off a duck’s back. So what is there left for me, except to hit you with “lame and lazy retorts”?
A small percentage, perhaps? Your commentaries need to get to the level of the common man, like the Watchtower magazine, or your sidekick’s, the Maintenanceman’s, posts.
“If pantelism is true, then our understanding of the final state of existence has been wrong; our understanding of the events leading up to it has been wrong; our understanding of our bodily resurrection has been wrong; our understanding of our eternal state has been wrong; the great ecumenical creeds (historic summaries of essential Christian belief) were wrong, including the Apostles’ and the Nicene Creeds.” http://answers.org/bookreviews/misstheend.html
“The unorthodox aspect of this view is that the reconciliation accomplished in 70 A.D was such that there no longer remains a lost condition in humanity and therefore no present need for conversion – which reduces to a form of universalism where all are saved and one must simply realize what has been done for all humanity.” https://www.theopedia.com/pantelism
"A belief by all full Preterists, that all spiritual gifts ceased by 70-AD…
…beyond 70-AD Jesus dwells fully with us, and the purpose and time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit has been fulfilled and completed…
…Christians beyond this period see God fully, lacking nothing…"
(p.19 of “End Times Prophecy: A Biblical Overview of Preterism, Historicism, and Futurism”, Roy W. Anderberg, 2017)
“Full or Hyper Preterism is simply an extreme form of Preterism that is heretical, it is heretical because it denies fundamental tenets of the Christian faith: That Jesus Christ will come again, in glory, to judge the quick and the dead, and that there will be a bodily resurrection of the dead and eternal life in the Age to Come.” https://www.christianforums.com/threads/full-preterism-pantelism-how-dangerous.8052813/
“Full preterists… are even so bold as to say that we are living in the new heavens and the new Earth (talked about in Revelation 21-22).”
“Of course, they have to abandon the plain understanding of the Scriptures to try and explain what John really meant when he said “there shall no longer be any death…mourning, or crying, or pain” in Rev. 21:4.”
"Hyper or Full Preterism states that the Parousia, Judgment, and Resurrection took place in 70 AD. Hyper Preterists believe that the resurrection of the dead is not the resurrection of the body, as the Church has always taught, but instead is a spiritual resurrection to heaven. That the Judgment is not the Judgment of the living and the dead at the conclusion of history, but Judgment against ancient Israel, and that the end of the age is not the conclusion of this present, sinful age in which the power of sin and death dominates the world but is merely the conclusion of the Old Testament age signaled by the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. https://www.christianforums.com/threads/full-preterism-pantelism-how-dangerous.8052813/#post-72404274
