Hi Everyone
Can anyone enlighten me to what the Abyss is, which is mentioned a few times in Revelation? Is it the same place as Tarataros? Another question I have is why Peter mentions Tartaros, when it is seemingly from Greek mythology.
Thank you
Craggs
I don’t know, Craggs, but I think the ones most likely to have an answer for you would be [tag]JasonPratt[/tag][tag]Sherman[/tag][tag]Paidion[/tag][tag]Eaglesway[/tag]
Asyou kno, Tartarus (tararoo) was the Abyss in Gr. mythology, ruled by the god Tartarus, just as Hades, the underworld, was ruled by Hades. It was the prison for Titans, which may correspond with Genesis 6:4 and Jude vs. 6. As to whether Peter actually called it tartarus, or whether that is a translation from his original Aramaic or Hebrew(abbadon is the hebrew equivalent of tartarus) word is just too debatable to assert firmly- but that is what i believe, so- in my opinion Peter probably called it the pit(bowr), or the abyss(abbadon), and then the Greeks translated it to tartaroo, and then it was capitalized and converted to a proper name by the King James translators. So Peter was not referencing the Greek myth as i see it.
A cursory look at “the pit”(bo’wr heb) in the old testament shows that it was a fairly common word, perhaps an alternate word for sheol, or the grave(qeber).
In Peters reference, I believe it is possible that he was referring to a special chamber in sheol where the Gen 6 Jude 6 principalities were imprisoned, and I believe the Greek mythology about Titans extends from that, rather than the other way around.
See, the true cosmology of the world was carried through the forefathers from Seth son of Abel through Enoch and to Methusaleh, then post-flood through Noah to Abraham, and then into Israel’s prophets from Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Joseph.
Some scholars assert that the legends of Sumeria, Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Assyria prove that the history of the world springs from common myths. I think that the true history was held in pretty much in common until the tower of Babel, when the nations were scattered by the confusion of languages, and then the true history was gradually distorted into the myths of the nations and cultures that arose from that dispersion- hence the seedbed of myth springs up in Sumeria and lower Egypt. The myths are reflections of a common history once known by all men. Rebellious nations under the influence of demonic principalities changed the names and stories to protect their dominions over time.
You can see the propensity of men to re-write history today, even over 50 years, imagine over thousands of years of rulers re-writing history and building it around heroes and gods unto whom they could liken themselves in seeking worship and absolute service in their dominions.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Ro 1:18-23
Romans 1:18-23 clearly shows how they went from the true history of the cosmos to their own mythical cosmologies, imo.
I guess we are still dealing with the confusion of languages lol.
I think the reference in Revelation is to the same place, or a chamber of sheol, or something like that- there is far too little in the scripture to say for sure, but i think it is consistent to say it is likely so.
I don’t have a definitive answer. There are seven refences to “the abyss” in Revelation, but that is a book that describes the writer John’s vision, which is mostly symbolic. What is symbolized is subject to a variety of opinions.
There are only two other places in the New Testament in which “the abyss” is mentioned. One is in Romans 10:7
Paul’s parenthetical explanation suggests to me that “the abyss” is a reference to the grave (or the tomb in which a dead person is placed).
The other one is where the demons begged Jesus not to send them to the abyss.
Could this be a request that Jesus would not destroy them?
Here’s what the Protestant Got Questions site has at Question: “What is the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:1-12)?”. Keep in mind they answer from their own Protestant theological lens. Here’s also a definition and commentary at Dictionaries - Baker’s Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Abyss. as far as Tartarus goes, I am including the answer from Theopedia. Hope this is useful!. The first 2 sites mention that Tartarus and Abyss have (or could have) the same - or similar - meanings. Probably depends on Peter’s audience. Those with a Greek background are probably familiar with the connotation of Tartarus. This might also be helpful: Is Peter’s use of Tartarus adoptive of Hellenistic language or ideas? Look at the last paragraph of the answer given.
Keep in mind, I don’t know all the answers - but I usually know how to find them, in a research capacity. I like to hear from those who have either a different spin on - or can expand upon - the answers given in the mentioned sites.
Great resources.
I agree with that quote except for the “slightly” part. I think the apostle expressed a predominantly Jewish thought, as did Jesus- but this is definitely a critical question…
“Is Peter’s use of Tartarus adoptive of Hellenistic language or ideas?”
Altho I am of the minority that thinks Jesus and Peter originally spoke in Aramaic or Syriac or even Hebrew- even if I am wrong about that, Did Jesus think Hades if He spoke Hades? Did He express/teach the Hellenistic concept of Hades?
I seriously doubt that. The morphology from Sheol to Hades(Gr) to Inferno(Latin) to Hell(English) is, in my opinion, the single greatest corruption of the gospel, in the measure of its effect upon what thought is heard when certain words are spoken- that there is. As I see it, Jesus did not exchange the true cosmology of the forefathers for a Hellenistic one, which was a myth full of misinformation and deception about the nature of deity and the cosmos. Jesus is the chief cornerstone. All His lines are truth.
Of Peter, being a foundation stone, I would think the same.
But that is just my opinion.
Thanks to each and every one of you for your replies and thoughtful comments; and so a bit of reading to do and processing! I’ll get back if I have any more queries on this.
Cheers
Craggs
Adding to the excellent starts already:
The term “abyss” carries the connotation of swirling depths, which in Jewish poetic thought would correspond to dangerously large bodies of water being, or representing, the prison of rebel angels. So that’s another connection to the Greek idea of tartarus; and the ideas have another connection in the Jewish notion that this prison was located, or represented by, the ‘underwater’ on which all land was floating: to them, you don’t get to fire if you dig deep enough, but to the cold, damp underwater. Which may be a folk memory of the sphericity of the Earth and the prevalence of seas; but which is also connected again to memories of water bursting up from the ground during the Flood (a detail most Flood accounts tend to ignore). Which again is connected to the idea of rebel angels incarnating in a way that they could be killed and buried, and so we’re back to Tartarus and the aidios - invisible chains. (Peter doesn’t refer to “hades”, nor Jude if I recall correctly, but Peter calls the chains invisible by another term, and Jude uses a term which can mean invisibility depending on whether the initial vowels are combined or not, itself related to {hades} grammatically.)
This introduces some ironic humor into the incident with the Legion demons, as they beg not to go back into the Abyss, but their new hosts, the swine, drown in the swirling depths of Lake Galilee after all.
Notably, when Paul uses “abyss” in Romans 10:7, he’s midrashing a little on Deuteronomy 30:11-14, substituting Jesus (apparently by reference to the Logos, and to reference of Jesus incarnating and rising from the grave) for the Torah. There Moses said the commandment to “turn to YHWH your God with all your heart and soul” was (perhaps unlike all the previous commandments given, a point Paul has certainly been talking about) not too difficult for the Jews, nor was it far off; not in heaven so that someone has to ask who will go up to get it for us and make us hear it so we can observe the commandment, nor is it beyond the sea so that we have to ask who will go across the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, but the word is very near us, in our mouth and in our heart that we may observe it. So again, “abyss” == swirling depths of the sea (as a poetic representation of where “the dead ones” go).
The idea of rebel angels rising from disturbed oceans to terrorize the world, is not exactly foreign to RevJohn either. 
Good stuff guys. I don’t have much to add, just that it’s good to remember that Revelation is apocalyptic literature and interpreted from at least 4 different views - Historical, Preterist, Spiritualist, and Futurist. Interpreting Revelation is more like interpreting a fantasy or sci-fi movie than interpreting a documentary, more like interpreting a painting than interpreting a book.
I see elements of all four of those views in John’s apocalypse(unveiling) from things that must soon come to pass, to spiritual realities fullfilled throughout the age, to glimpses of the ages to come. Alpha through Omega. The revelation of Jesus Christ.
I can’t imagine a time when such a glorious revelation would not be “current truth”, speaking to the hearts and minds of readers- “Today, if you hear my voice”…“Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches”.
Transliteration: apokalupsis
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ok-al’-oop-sis)
Short Definition: an unveiling, uncovering, revealing
Definition: an unveiling, uncovering, revealing, revelation.
That is so well stated! I too see all 4 views as encouraging and inspiring. I find the Preterist view the most solid, the Historist view very compelling, the Spiritualist view the most inspirational, and the Futurist view the most fun and encouraging but also the most shadowy. Nailing these images down to have one meaning is like grasping at the air though.
We run into problems though, I think, when we try to
I agree with that. When we try to defend the view we have the most affinity for by invalidating the others, we miss out on a lot. My personal view is that the revelation of John is primarily pictures of spiritual reality. Images that define things in the heavens, living and active in every generation. Altho I believe some of those images will find there fulfillment as this age draws to a close, they have nevertheless been communicating spiritually to seekers with “ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches” since it was first written.
For instance, imo the Bride is always “coming down out of the heavens” having “made herself ready”. the kingdom of God manifest on earth among His people, just as Jesus was, “the bread that comes down out of heaven”.
Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
IMO Heb 12;22-24 is the fulfilled view. Yet, the Lord is adding daily to the church tho ones appointed to salvation.
Eph 1:22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
As Christ fills the church, rooted and grounded in love, to be filled up to all the fulness of God- first Israel filled, now the church filled, then the whole creation filled.
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
At the same time, she is being built, a city with foundations in the heavens, whose builder and maker is God- fitly joined together of living stones- with mortar of brotherly love, a “habitation of God in the Spirit”.
So, born on Pentecost (historist), consummated(fully manifest) at the end of the age(futurist), always living and active in the Spirit(spiritualist), finished as Christ breathed His last, having laid down His life for her, having sanctified her by the washing of the water with the word(preterist).
Perhaps there is a fifth view. the now-ist view lol. God’s Now, in His Today- that Sabbath rest of works finished from the foundation of the world, where all views come together in one.