The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Bible Teaches Limited Atonement

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

He will save His people from their sins - Matt. 20:28

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep - John 10:11

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood - Acts 20:28

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor - Eph. 5:25-27

He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? - Rom. 8:32-34

Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish. He did not say this of His own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad - John 11:50-53

And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open it’s seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation - Rev. 5:9

#2

Uh-uh. The Bible teaches unlimited atonement. See:

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4).

“Who (speaking of Christ) gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time” (1 Timothy 2:6).

“For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead” (2 Corinthians 5:14).

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15).

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9).

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30).

"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18).

“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man” (Hebrews 2:9).

It’s pretty easy to post a bunch of proof-texts, Cole. But if you want to make 'em stick, you have to follow up with at least *some *exegesis. Otherwise a fellow could make the mistake that you were just being provocative for the sake of being provocative.

Shalom

Johnny

#3

It is true that salvation was to be offered to the Jews (His people) first but when they rejected the message of salvation it became open to all:

“He came unto His own and His own received Him not, but as many as received Him to them gave He power to become the son’s of God.”
“His people” are now the ‘whosoever will’.

Wow! I hope I’ve given enough exegesis - you’re getting me worried Johnny but it’s past our bedtime.
Sweet dreams my friend.

#4

Hey Johnny,

Well, the texts speak for themselves. Nothing you provided contradicts what I gave. Christ died for God’s children scattered abroad. From every tribe language nation and people. The whole world. Not every single individual.

#5

Hi Cole

Yes. The texts I quoted do indeed speak for themselves. And they speak of Universal Restoration.

Like I said, proof-texting is futile if it isn’t backed up with serious exegesis - and indeed philosophical argument. In which I would be more than happy to engage with you.

Shalom

Johnny

#6

Hey Johnny,

I will let the reader decide. I gave the scriptures that speak of Christ dying not only for the jews but the Gentiles as well. All people. All nationalities. The whole world. The children of God scattered abroad. His sheep hear His voice. He lays down His life for the sheep. Not the goats.

#7

Hi Cole

Your *interpretation *of scripture. Which has been rejected by countless millions of Christians through the ages. As I said earlier, you are blinkered by your controlling Calvinist belief - which I find puzzling, as just a couple of days ago you seemed to have opened your mind to the possibility of other truths - even UR.

Like it or not, Calvinism is a dying creed. The more people are empowered to think for themselves, the more they see the utter incongruity - nay blasphemy - of a so-called ‘god’ who creates merely to destroy, to display his tin-pot ‘glory’ in the endless torture of the children he dragged unwilling into this vale of tears.

Indeed the reader shall decide.

Shalom

Johnny

#8

Johnny,

I don’t believe in endless torture and neither do the Calvinists. Limited atonement has been taught since the latter Augustine and will continue until Christ’s return. For it comes from scripture. I never stopped believing that the Bible teaches limited atonement. I was open to the idea that some will be purified by God’s justice in hell. But Jason corrected me on this. He is correct. We are saved by grace not wrath.

#9

Hi Cole

I’m very glad you don’t believe in endless torture. But I’m afraid you’re wrong about your fellow Calvinists - at least some of them. Jonathan Edwards, for example, a man who Reformed preacher Tim Keller quotes often in his sermons:

Funnily enough Keller never quotes *that *little gem from Edwards.

#10

Oh yes. I forgot to say some modern Calvinists. I forgot about Edwards. :blush:

#11

If only that were true, Cole.

John Calvin? Tertullian? Jonathan Edwards?

Nope. Mark Driscoll. Hardline ECT Calvinism is alive and well in Seattle, USA.

#12

Well, I believe that those in hell stay unregenerate. They continue to sin and God continues to add punishment for their sins. The reprobate sin - God punishes - the reprobate sin - God punishes - and the cycle continues. The punishment fits the crimes. There will be no torturing in hell. Only justice.

#13

Well at least you’re finally pinning your true colours to the mast, Cole.

If your idea of justice is eternal punishment for behaving the way God preordained us to behave, with no possibility of doing otherwise, I fear you and I are not going to have a very fruitful conversation.

#14

God doesn’t positively coerce sin. He gives people over to their own wills and ALLOWS them to sin. They are responsible for their actions and they get justice. God’s punishments fit the crimes. The sins continue forever in hell and therefore so does God’s justice.

#15

There it is, verbatim, in the Westminster Confession of Faith. God preordained the reprobate to an eternity of sinful behaviour. They had no choice in the matter. Sure sounds like coercion to me.

#16

He passes over them and PERMITS them to sin by witholding mercy. There’s two sides to God’s decree. One is active and one is passive. He ALLOWS those who have not been chosen to perish in their sins. He pours out His justice on them in hell as they continue to sin. He doesn’t ACTIVELY coerce sin. He PERMITS it by witholding mercy and passing over the reprobate. He ALLOWS them to act according to their own wills.

#17

According to the Westminster Confession of Faith, God doesn’t PERMIT anything.

Everything that happens, every sin, every rape, every murder, every blasphemy, happens becaue it was “unchangeably ordain[ed]” by God.

As a Calvinist, you cannot use the language of permission, will, choice etc. For there is none, according to your belief. Me writing this sentence. The reply you are about to compose. They were all preordained before the universe was born.

#18

Read R.C. Sproul’s book “Chosen By God” where he explains the two sides to God’s decree. He believes God PERMITS sin by passing over it and witholding his mercy. This is what the Creeds are saying.

#19

Cole, with respect, what Mr Sproul thinks is irrelevant to this discussion.

I don’t accept that the ‘God of all truth’ speaks with forked tongue.

#20

Hi Michael,

As Johnny noted there are many verses that affirm that Jesus died for all of humanity, and as you noted there are many verses that affirm that Jesus died specifically for some of humanity, whether that be Israel and/or the church. Paul pulls this together where he affirms that Jesus is the savior of all, especially those who believe, 1 Tim. 4:10! He thus affirms Unlimited Atonement, and Atonement especially for the elect.

It’s also interesting that the elect are chosen, not for the damnation of others, but to participate in the salvation of others. Israel was chosen, elected from all other peoples, not so that other nations could be damned, but so that through Israel all might be saved through Jesus.

The purpose of election is so that the non-elect might be saved. The elect are chosen as ministers of reconciliation. And even among the elect some are chosen as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers so that all the elect might be equipped in the ministry of reconciliation.

And btw, Mat. 25 passage commonly translated as the “sheep and the goats” is actually better translated as the “flock and the kids (baby goats)”. The shepherd separates out the kids from the flock so as to discipline them and train them so that they can function well in the flock. A shepherds flock had goats, sheep, and even possibly cattle and donkeys. Probaton, commonly translated as sheep actually means and small 4 -legged animal. And eriphos, commonly translated as goats, actually specifically means kid, baby/young goat.

Also note that both sheep and goats are clean valuable animals. Both can and were acceptable sacrifices. In fact, in the parable of the “lost sheep”, it actually says lost “probaton”, and considering that goats are much more independent and sheep are naturally much more fearful and stay close to the herd, it’s likely that a better translation of that passage would be the “lost goat”.

It is also significant to note that the judgment in Mt. 25 separation of the kids from the flock is about separating out people who are so selfish that they do not even see, recognize the needs of others. This is not as separation of the saved and unsaved, but a separation of the members of the shepherds flock, and that separation is not based on faith but on how one actually lives.

I believe that the point of the message is that God will discipline those who are selfish so that they might change and grow-up healthy individuals. Whether that discipline comes in this life or the life to come, it comes and it comes from God and fully accomplishes our Father’s will in us!

Note that the meaning of the word kolasis, punishment, can and I believe best means remedial, corrective punishment.

Well anyhow, I’m thankful that Jesus is the savior of all, especially we who believe! And one day every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord!

Blessings,
Sherman