The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Biblical Basis For Purgatory And An Infinitely Heinous Punishment

I don’t believe that it’s the MOST REASONABLE. Preterist is the most reasonable. I’m still working through this. Here’s a preterist book showing that the scriptures teach that Genesis is referring to the creation of God’s people (Israel) and not the whole physical universe. It’s making sense. He shows the flood wasn’t global and shows what consistent preterism is. It’s inconsistent to take a universalist views of the Bible. If one takes a local covenant views of eschatology then one must do so about creation and redemption.

Still working through it. Haven’t got it all down yet but it’s making sense.

However one interprets “Heavens and Earth” the fact remains that it says it is destroyed and then replaced with a new “Heavens and Earth”. This is purification. The penalty for sin is suffering death and then resurrection. Destruction judgment followed by restoration. This is what we see at the cross. To God a “thousand” years is like a “day” and a “day” is like a “thousand” years. Both day and thousand years are symbolic here. The number one thousand (1,000) symbolizes “ immensity , ” “fullness of quantity” or “multitude .” The number evokes a very long time according to most Bible passages. This is why the Bible tells us that Jonah was in the belly of a whale for 3 days and 3 nights and yet it says he was there forever. It’s relative. This is how Jesus was tormented day and night forever and ever for our sins in the atonement. Yet it was only a few hours.

There is merit in the Covenant Creation [CC] view and I hold to an amalgam of CC, Enns’ Adam is Israel and John Sailhamer’s more local view of creation as the preparation of the Land for Israel’s habitation — basically it was local but was to have transformative reach far beyond itself, i.e., it was a means to an end, and thus fully inclusive as opposed to the more muddied waters of universalism.

I know both Tim Martin and Jeff Vaughn reasonably well and have a signed copy by Tim of their book… 3rd edition. Have a look at the 2nd footnote in chapter 20 :wink: Back in the early days of exploring the inclusiveness inherent within prêterism I had many a tussle with these guys. The best they could do was dismiss such as mere universalism but never really showed what I was bringing to the fore as being logically wrong. If I knew then what I know now I would have promoted INCLUSION type language far more, as opposed to having wasted so much time batting away the misnomer of universalism — ya live n’ learn.

I hold that the days are prophetic as in “The Day of the Lord”. The Days are God’s Days. To God a ‘Day" is as a “Thousand years” and a “Thousand years” are as a “Day.” A “Thousand Years” and “Day” aren’t literal here. The perspective of the Spirit brooding over the waters is in the promised land or Eden or the land of Israel. This is better than Sailhammers view. It’ the view of the physicist David Snoke. This is the best book on Genesis and creation I’ve read.

Davo,

Here’s where I’m at. The body is the new temple. The new heavens and earth are the body of Christ. The church is the kingdom of God. Outside are the unbelievers in the Lake of fire. The lake of fire and brimstone is metaphorical. Brimstone in Greek means Divine incense. It’s a purifying agent. Those outside the church are being purified. The wrath of God abides on them. Upon death we are all transformed. Death has been destroyed. It was destroyed in 70 AD. The New Heavens and earth is Christ consciousness. The heart is the garden. Ego is outside the land of Eden. This is true for each believer in Christ. We make up the New Jerusalem.

Let me think about this some more.

Davo,

When I’m outside the gate I’m in ego. Entering the new city is righteousness. It’s by faith. Surrendering to God I come into union with Christ. I become a new creation. The New Heaven and earth is Christ consciousness. All are submitted to God in the new creation. Outside are the dead bodies. This is metaphorical for lost souls. The wrath of God abides on them. They are in the purifying fire (Ego)

Death being destroyed refers to those that enter the gates. They can be grafted in and become part of the “all things new”. It’s happening now. There’s no way to know if it will happen for everyone though. Christ is the new humanity. The gates remain open and the invitation extends to those in this life and the next. The best anyone can do is hope that all will be saved.

I guess if I’m going to hope for universalism I must think it’s more glorious. God is most glorified if His glory is rejoiced in. It tells us:

This sounds like it’s saying mercy is more glorious.

This is what "Got questions says:

This brings us to the final statement of James 2:13, “Mercy triumphs over judgment.” The idea is that mercy “glories” or “boasts” against judgment, knowing that, where mercy and judgment seem to conflict, mercy wins. The good news for every child of God in Christ is that God’s mercy toward us will triumph over His judgment of us (see Romans 8:1). Our sins may argue against us, but Christ is our loving Advocate who argues for us and prevents us from receiving the judgment we deserve. We, in turn, display God’s type of mercy toward others.

https://www.gotquestions.org/mercy-triumphs-over-judgment.htm

I found an article on NT Wright’s view of hell. He’s not a universalist but It could also be that the remains of the old self are left behind. The Devil will be tormented forever but lucifer is reborn. The same with resurrected wicked. They receive a new self and new incorruptible body after being reborn in hell. Their remains are left behind along with their old identity (old self). God gives them a new name and identity after being reborn. Both body and soul are punished forever. Thus, the glory of God’s infinite justice would be manifested. God would be most glorified and mercy would triumph over judgment. All would glorify God for His mercy.

Here’s Thayer’s Greek Lexicon on the word “Triumph” in the passage “mercy triumphs over judgment”.

To glory against, to exult over…Mercy boasts itself superior to judgment

So, Mercy is more glorious than judgment. Whichever view gives God the most glory is the True view.

Davo,

The new heavens and earth is the Body of Christ. The church is the bride and the temple. The kingdom is within. Ego is separation. Ego is outside the gates. Union is through faith. The Jewish temple was seen as a miniature cosmos. The new cosmos is Christ consciousness. Your view is wrong. The new heavens and earth will continually grow and get better over time. Here’s a time in the future when people will live longer in the kingdom. Notice that there’s still death at this time in the New Creation:

Isaiah 65:17-25

New Heavens and a New Earth

“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.

I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.

Notice at this future stage in the new heavens and earth there’s still death.

Jesus said our hearts are like gardens. When the Word of God takes root in us and His Spirit dwells within us, our hearts can produce beautiful “fruit.” But it is important to tend the garden of our hearts daily. This tract encourages readers to water their hearts with the Word of God, nurture them with prayer, and root out the weeds of sin, but most importantly to have a personal relationship with the “Master Gardener,” Jesus Christ.

The Holy Grail

The scales of justice balance in September
As Michael crushes Satan’s head in death
Ego is cast out, the new self is in union with Christ
Flames of torment destroy the self of the old
I stand on this Holy Mountain of God crucified
Baptized into water, death, and fire, I’m made new
The cup of the Holy Grail infuses precious stones within
As I become drunk on the Beautiful cup of blood
Victory reigns at the core in the Holy land of Eden
In celebration of the marriage with the Lamb
I have fallen madly in love with love

At the cross Satan was defeated in the spirit realm by Michael the archangel. For the Christian, the “Holy Grail” is the Eucharist or coming into union with Christ. The heart is the garden. Ego is separation. Ego is outside the gates of the city.

From my Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. This makes the most sense to me:

Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt. 24-25 is difficult to interpret. He speaks extensively about cosmic catastrophes, heavenly signs, and the future judgment of God. This has led some to think that Jesus was predicting his Second Coming and the end of the visible world. This interpretation appears to take Jesus words seriously and at their face value. Nevertheless, it leads to a troublesome scenario: Jesus expected these world shaking events to occur after his Ascension. After al, he told the disciples, “Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place”. Was Jesus mistaken? Should we feel uncomfortable because the world is still with us almost two thousand years after he prophesied it’s frightful end?

A closer look at Jesus words in the context of ancient Judaism reveals a better interpretation. Namely, Jesus was predicting the demise of the Jerusalem Temple - the architectural symbol of the Old Covenant. At the literal historical level, Jesus entire discourse is an extension of his cryptic comment about the Temple: “There will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down.” Hearing this the disciples were probably reminded of a similar event in the OT when God allowed the temple to be destroyed in 586 B.C. as punishment for Israel’s sins. Interpreting Jesus’ words in this way does more adequate justice to the symbolism of his language and the testimony of history. Ancient sources confirm his prophecy: the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70, a tragedy that claimed the lives of more than 1 million Jews. From this perspective Jesus stands vindicated, since his words did come to pass within the lifetime of his contemporaries.

But how are the details of Jesus’ strange language to be understood? Could he expect us to associate cosmic upheavals like national warfare, earthly catastrophes, the darkening of the sun and moon, and stars falling out of the sky with the collapse of a sacred building? The answer lies in biblical and traditional views of the Temple. Like many religions in the near east, the Israelites regarded their Temple as a miniature replica or microcosm of the world; it was an architectural model of the universe fashioned by God. Conversely the universe itself was a macro temple, where God also dwells with his people. This is best summarized by the Psalmist, “He built his sanctuary like the high heavens, like the earth, which he founded for ever.” (Ps 78:69). Other indications of this Temple theology are found in OT parallels and Jewish traditions that link the Temple and the world closely together:

(1) The Place of God’s Rest

(2) Symbolism of Seven

(3) A House of Glory

(4) Jewish Tradition

These considerations help make sense of Jesus’ words in their historical context. With the dawning of the New Covenant, God had to clear away the central symbol of the Old Covenant, the Temple. The church is God’s new and spiritual Temple, built with the living stones of Christian believers. In this light, the devastation of the Temple and the judgment of Israel in 70 AD can be seen as an overture to greater things. That is, the termination of the Old Covenant world prefigures the destruction of the universe, God’s macro temple, and the judgment of the nations by Christ. Thus Jesus’ Olivet Discourse is initially fulfilled in the first century as he said. But imbedded in Christs words are spiritual truths that point forward to his Second Coming in glory and the end of the visible world.