The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Biblical Basis For Purgatory And An Infinitely Heinous Punishment


You’re so pathetic hollytree. I’ve been wondering what psychologically drives someone like you who is gung ho about sucking up to God, who thinks being more sadistic than than Hitler would be “glorious” as long as God did it. I think it’s your fear of death. You are so terrified of existential nothingness, that being a tribalistic cheerleader on Team God is the only way you can deal with the fact that some day you’re going to be brain-dead. It’s like closing your eyes and blasting loud, obnoxious music. A distraction.


No someday I’m going to walk the streets of gold with my Holy God


Your death is not mutually exclusive with that. But please explain to me your psychology. I pity your miserable existence.


This is a good point, but qaz you have to understand by now that God has little to do with punishment, as He has put in the hands of the creation. :roll_eyes:

Oh this will get a few post’s…:neutral_face:


Retribution is the way the courts operate.

Less and less that is the case. Civilization has been moving towards more restorative justice systems.


So tell me hollytree, is my diagnosis of you on point?


No. You’re way off. You live in a world where you blaspheme the holy. You hate a holy God because of His wrath.


God is a father. He is Father to the Lord Jesus Christ. He is Father to all His created beings. I am also a father - of nine. I punished my children when they said or did something unkind or hurtful and because of disobedience. They are all grown up now and they all acknowledge that their punishments were deserved and carried out in love, for their benefit. They are bringing up their own children in the same way.

I took no delight in executing punishment but I knew it was for my children’s good. It’s the same with God. Ps. 103:13 “Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him.” Earthly fathers can learn from how God acts as a father. He corrects the fallen - why?, because He loves them. The necessary correction may require a long time or a short time but it will eventually achieve its end. Then, every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that He is Lord.


I think you can’t deal with the fact that one day you’ll be brain dead. Sucking up to God gives you the feeling of broke fan at a football game, cheering on his team. Escapism.


Whatever. I’ve been healed of my fears and insecurities because of my faith in God. I’ve completely changed. It’s a miracle that you attribute to what you call a malevolent deity.


I don’t think you have. I think the fact you’ll be dead one day is always there in the back of your head, and sucking up to God is your way of drowning out the sound of death.


Nope. I’ve been there and done that. Seeing that you struggle with the fear of death I would recommend Richard Becks book:


Not buying it. You wouldn’t be waving pompoms sucking up to God the way you do if you were psychologically well.


Yet you asserted in the monster god thread that killing Jesus is the best proof that killing an innocent one is not evil, but rather was wonderfully justified.

Is this because you mean that for God to kill Jesus is wonderfully good, but that the people whom God ordained to carry it out are still guilty of an infinite evil that justifies their own infinite suffering?


What Satan meant for evil God meant for good. I go along with Jonathan Edwards in that God permits or allows evil. When God allowed Satan to take Jobs kids Job says "The Lord has given and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord. To which the writer responds, “In all this Job did not sin with his lips” God is the ultimate cause in that He permits evil for morally sufficient and justifiable reasons. The secret things belong to the Lord. His sovereign will is His business. My job is to obey His revealed will which is to trust Him. Here’s how it works:

Fear and anxiety and worry are about the future. When I’m worried about the future I’m in my mind or ego. In the past this fear of being harmed or plotted against by others has caused me to drink and do drugs. Alcohol released my fears where I could communicate and talk with others but the next day I would feel more fear and shame. Shyness turned into social phobia and social phobia turned into paranoia. I have found that this fear is uprooted by having faith in God. Such a faith secures the future and gives one hope. Hope pushes the desires that lead to sin out of the heart as one relies on God like Christ did. It’s by the joy set before us. Not only does it push desires out of the heart but it brings strong desires to the heart as one is thrown into the current of love. It’s faith - hope - love. It’s faith working itself out through love. The joy of faith. In the Bible faith produces obedience. The power to love is the confidence that God will take care of my future. It’s the obedience of faith as one trusts and relies on God like Jesus did. It’s faith working itself out through love. Christ’s atoning death secures the future with his blood bought promises. Example:

Vengeance is Mine I will Repay

When my faith is in God the desires for sin is pushed out of the heart. I let go and let God handle it. Rather I love the enemy just like Christ did. Another example:

God works all things together for good for those that love Him.

I place my faith in God and Christ as it gives me hope.

Dealing with shame:

If we confess our sins He will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

My faith is in God. Indeed. when facing shame that comes from the rejection, and ridicule of others I trust God when He promises to one day vindicate His children. Oh the glory that awaits those who are despised and rejected by others misplaced shaming. It’s faith working itself out through love. When my future is in the hands of an all powerful and holy God who promises to work out all my circumstances for good, anxiety is broken as the heart opens up to love. The desires that lead to sin are pushed out of my heart as God infuses me and covers me with His righteousness.



I cited your argument that the killing of Jesus shows that killing the innocent need not be evil, but is wonderfully good. Now you reply that you can also assert that killing Jesus IS so evil that it requires infinite punishment because “God permits or allows Evil.” I get lost with your reasoning. If killing Jesus is an example that God “permits EVIL,” how does That show that killing such an innocent one was not Evil, but actually good?


God’s mysterious heart is infinitely complex and cannot be grasped by our finite and limited mind. He is paradox. Take for instance the evil murder of His Son. In one sense God wasn’t pleased when innocent Christ was murdered. God doesn’t delight in torture and evil in and of itself. What He was pleased in was what Christ accomplished on the cross is showing love and grace to sinners. God’s sovereign will is His business. We don’t know it until it comes to pass. We are to go by His revealed will. The secret things belong to the Lord. This is why often in the Bible God will use evil to judge His people and then turn around and judge those who committed the evil against His people. God’s holy intentions and justifiable reasons in permitting the evil were good. Man’s intentions in committing the sinful acts were evil.


G.K. Chesterton was a brilliant writer. Nobody exploits the power of paradox like Chesterton. I heartily recommend his book orthodoxy. Chesterton did all he did to keep from becoming a Calvinist, and instead made me a romantic one - a happy one. The poetic brightness of his book, along with C.S. Lewis awakened in me an exuberance about the strangeness of all things, which in the end made me able to embrace the imponderable paradoxes of God’s decisive control of all things and the total justice of his holding us accountable. One of the reasons Calvinism is stirring today is that it takes both truth and mystery seriously. Read Orthodoxy…This book will awaken such a sense wonder in you that you will not feel at home again until you enter the new world of the wide eyed children called the happy Reformed…How can I not give thanks for this jolly Catholic whose only cranky side seemed to be his clouded views of happy Calvinists! - John Piper, A Godward Heart, pp. 79-82


As one example of so many incoherencies, you wrote that killing Jesus proves that it’s morally “good” to kill the innocent. Then you insist killing Jesus proves that it is the worst possible “evil.” When I suggest that using language so contradictory makes your language and claims meaningless, you respond that your assertions about God are ‘paradoxes’ that no one’s mind can grasp. Exactly!

Thus indeed every religion can and does justify insisting on its’ claims that everyone sees are irrationally contradictory and make no sense, by insisting that religious truth is “secret things” which only God can make any sense of. But since this strategy (insist that A and not A are equally correct) can be used to argue for ANY assertion about Any religion, I find it is a useless tactic and a waste of time to debate.


G.K. Chesterton didn’t find it useless. Reality is filled with paradoxes It’s a clash of contradictions.