The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Biblical Basis For Purgatory And An Infinitely Heinous Punishment

Theology Biblical Theology
#88

Bob,

I found this article by Bishop Barron written in 2012. Here’s the conclusion:

It seems to me that Pope Benedict’s position – affirming the reality of Hell but seriously questioning whether that the vast majority of human beings end up there – is the most tenable and actually the most evangelically promising.

Here’s Pope Benedicts position earlier in the paper:

Pope’s 2007 encyclical “Spe Salvi,” which can be summarized as follows: There are a relative handful of truly wicked people in whom the love of God and neighbor has been totally extinguished through sin, and there are a relative handful of people whose lives are utterly pure, completely given over to the demands of love. Those latter few will proceed, upon death, directly to heaven, and those former few will, upon death, enter the state that the Church calls Hell. But the Pope concludes that “the great majority of people” who, though sinners, still retain a fundamental ordering to God, can and will be brought to heaven after the necessary purification of Purgatory

catholicnewsagency.com/column/how-many-are-saved-2383/

#89

Yes, indeed. I posted this before, but I think it fits well here, so I will repost it.

Thomas Talbott has written (http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/basic.shtml) a simple argument for Universalism based on the power of love, as described in the Bible, to link the emotional state of each of us to that of others. This love means one’s emotional state, e.g., happiness or sadness, is inextricably tied to the emotional state of others, both friends and enemies, all of whom we are told to love by Jesus. Here is a syllogism of the argument.

Premise 1: If not all people get to Heaven, Heaven would be a place of sadness.

Premise 2: Heaven is not a place of sadness.

Conclusion: All people get to Heaven.

This argument can also be used to establish that nobody has been forced to get there. The conclusion of the argument establishes that all people are in Heaven. And because Heaven is not a place of sadness, i.e., Premise 2, all people there have freely chosen to be there, for if any of them had freely chosen not to be there, Heaven would be a place of sadness for them. Consequently, nobody in Heaven has been forced to be there against his or her free will. All people have freely chosen, in this life or the next, to be there.

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#90

Here’s an eye-opener: a Reformed Presbyterian minister writing a book on the Bible’s POSITIVE message of universal reconciliation!! And the book being praised by such reformed luminaries as John Frame.
This is an amazing turn of events.

An Amazon reviewer wrote:
I’ve read several books on Christian Universalism, and although they were emotionally satisfying (in other words, I agreed with their conclusions), they weren’t scholarly enough to satisfy the nagging biblical questions still left over. Bonda’s book is entirely different. First, he tackles this issue as a reformed Presybetarian pastor, which rachets up his credibility enormously. Second, he looks at this from a scriptural standpoint, starting with the Old Testament and going through the New Testament to put his argument in context. Finally, he wraps all this up with church history, where we come to see that never-ending punishment was NOT a prevailing view of the early church, nor was the theology of election, or predestination. Instead, Bonda argues rather elequently that the idea of “the restoration of all things” is very biblical, and that questioning the doctrines our current churches hold dear is not blasphemous, but rather is something the Reformation itself encouraged us to do.

#91

Dave,

Universalism has been examined and studied by the early church and was condemned as heterodox. Not quite heresy but heterodox. I don’t hold to it because it’s followers call the Holy God of the Bible evil and that’s blasphemy. Thinking that the unique author of life taking a life is unjust is wrong and blasphemous.

#92

The scripture teaches Universalism and I’m satisfied - and extremely happy - to have a larger hope, the largest hope, based on the word of God.
Nothing a church tells me will override what I consider to be the teaching of God. That’s my choice, and I can justify it.

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#93

Jerry Walls dismantles Talbotts reasoning here:

#94

If you want to believe that, go right ahead. I don’t.

#95

Perhaps we should let, this hot topic rest - until after New Years! I need to attend a party, with some of my zombie friends! :smile:

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#96

Talk about heinous punishment…

#98

Which of the early church father universalists ever called " the Holy God of the Bible evil"? Which of them ever said “the unique author of life taking a life is unjust”? Did Origen ever say such a thing? Did Gregory Nyssa ever say anything like that?

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#99

Not very helpful. Please succinctly present the dismantling, so we can all evaluate it.

1 Like
#100

You repeatedly assert that others say things that sound unrecognizable and bizarre. I find many of your characterization of people we both dig inccorect. But especially, I’ve never seen a universalist “call” God evil. Its’ central theme is that we affirm that the God of the Bible is good and is love. And many of us do not see all of the Bible’s viewpoints as identical.

Heavens, the reality is that your opponents try to avoid expressing their actual perception that your own position is the one that portrays and implies that God is evil, even though we know you would never perceive that you are “calling” God one who sponsors evil. But when those you debate find that you turn their own convictions upside down, your case will lose all credibility and room for clarity.

#101

P.S. This is Bob responding to Holly Tree. Well, the problem of evil and God…will never be solved logically, on a theological and philosophical level…that all would agree with.

I’m now a prospect for the Eastern Orthodox - OCA branch. And I’m also in the RCIA program, of the RC church. BOTH have been emphasizing, the love and mercy of God - in Christ.

#102

I don’t see how this follows. Those in heaven are being protected from the worst evil imaginable. They will delight in the justice of God. Not the evil and suffering in and of itself. The torture and murder of Christ was the worst evil imaginable and therefore deserves the worst punishment imaginable. They were judged in 70 A.D. One of God’s justifiable reasons for hell is the protection of His children from the worst evil imaginable (Satan, his angels, and the Jews who committed blasphemy against the Spirit and handed Jesus over to be tortured and crucified). There are infinitely many more justifiable reasons for hell seeing that logical explanations are infinite in number and God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge. Again, God and the saints don’t delight in the death of the wicked in and of itself but the glories of God’s justice. There’s nothing abnormal about being happy under God’s protective wings from the worst evil imaginable.

#103

Better yet would be God in His love and sovereignty to actually save all people, and eliminate evil and death and suffering altogether and gladden the entire universe. But come to think of it, that’s what this forum is all about. And is also what scripture teaches imho.

#104

Dave,

We wouldn’t have a proper knowledge of God if that were the case. Perfect love and perfect justice protect against evil. In the afterlife there is perfect love and perfect justice. Seeing that God is the beginning and the end (not bound by cosmic time) he’s always all glorious. Just as the glory of the cross was there at the foundation of the world. He was slain from the foundation of the world.

#105

I think the thrust of scripture is that Christ’s work will eventuate in the elimination of evil, so there will be nothing to be protected from. The whole creation will be delivered from its bondage.
God is maximally good, I believe, maximally glorious and maximally able to do what He has promised. In the end, nothing will be lost; everything will be reconciled, and the glory of God will fill every creature and every part of the universe.

#106

He eliminates evil from the new creation (New heavens and earth and New Jerusalem). The lake of fire is outside all that. The gates of the city are open for those in purgatory.

#107

Michael, I’ve yet to be convinced of the whole LOF scenario, so I’m not going to comment on it.
I am convinced that God will do the absolute most wonderful thing we can think of. And will not concede victory to evil or death.
Going to bed, see you tomorrow!

#108

Okay Dave :smiley: