The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Biblical Basis For Purgatory And An Infinitely Heinous Punishment

Theology Biblical Theology
#109

One more thing Dave. While scripture speaks of God’s justice being retributive it’s also restorative. But it also speaks about how people can resist and refuse discipline. Those with evil hardened hearts are corrected by God but they reject His discipline.

Those who disregard discipline despise themselves, but the one who heeds correction gains understanding ~~ Proverbs 15:32

Poverty and shame come to him who ignores discipline, but whoever heeds correction will be honored. ~~ Proverbs 13:18

A fool rejects his father’s discipline, but whoever heeds correction is prudent. ~~ Proverbs 15:5

Woe to her who is rebellious and defiled,
the oppressing city!

She listens to no voice;
she accepts no correction.

She does not trust in the Lord;
she does not draw near to her God.~~ Zephaniah 3

#110

Being protected from the worst evil imaginable is no guarantee that eternal bliss exists in heaven. How is that protection going to create eternal bliss in heaven-dwellers if not all their loved ones are also in heaven, protected from that same worst imaginable evil? Again, remember that loved ones, according to Jesus, should include all others.

Do you think holocaust survivors reacted with uninterrupted bliss for the rest of their lives after they were rescued from the evil of the concentration camps? Do you think memories of those not saved from the camps allowed bliss for any extended period of time in the survivors?

That anyone could be eternally happy knowing loved ones are not is the height of self-centeredness, precisely the kind of behavior Jesus stood against.

3 Likes
#111

I don’t think it’s self centeredness at all. Even if it is it’s a healthy self-centeredness not an unhealthy self-centeredness. If my dad was the most evil person imaginal in hell an I was being protected from his abuse I would feel relief and joy because of Gods love. Protecting children from their loved one’s evil abuse is normal. One feels love when they are protected from evil abuse. Jesus taught that love protects against evil. This includes evil from loved ones.

#112

It’s your view of love that is unhealthy.

#113

Undoubtedly one feels relief if one is protected from an evil. Is that joy? I don’t know that it is. Just knowing that eternal hell exists and causes others to suffer would seem to detract from joy.

#114

Just using, as a given, the admonitions of Jesus about loving your neighbors as well as your enemies.

#115

It’s my belief that everyone will be reconciled to those who have hurt them, and to those whom they have hurt. Peace will reign throughout the universe; there will be no more pain for anyone. Is this not a better vision than billions of people in ECT? Isn’t justice more glorified by God’s victorious love than by the grotesque caricature of ‘justice’ exemplified by torture forever? There is NO comparison between the two visions. And one of them is actually Biblical.

#116

Just using, as a given, the admonitions of Jesus about loving your neighbors as well as your enemies.

We love our enemies by trusting God and forgiving them. Not bearing a grudge. God says, Vengeance is Mine I will Repay. When I trust God I can forgive and not hold a grudge. This doesn’t mean that I have to go around an evil and abusive person. Love protects against evil abuse. Theres a happiness in being under God’s protective wings. Your view of love is unhealthy.

#117

Yes, and goes on to even greater Love by healing and reconciling the abuser. Thank God for that.

#118

Sure there’s happiness in being under God’s protective wings. But there’s unhappiness in knowing that others are not. That’s the essential point you continue to miss.

1 Like
#119

Dave,

I believe God’s justice is restorative as well as retributive. While scripture speaks of God’s justice being retributive it’s also restorative. But it also speaks about how people can resist and refuse discipline. Those with evil hardened hearts are corrected by God but they reject His discipline.

Those who disregard discipline despise themselves, but the one who heeds correction gains understanding ~~ Proverbs 15:32

Poverty and shame come to him who ignores discipline, but whoever heeds correction will be honored. ~~ Proverbs 13:18

A fool rejects his father’s discipline, but whoever heeds correction is prudent. ~~ Proverbs 15:5

Woe to her who is rebellious and defiled,
the oppressing city!

She listens to no voice;
she accepts no correction.

She does not trust in the Lord;
she does not draw near to her God.~~ Zephaniah 3

#120

People in heaven don’t delight in the suffering in and of itself. They delight in God’s love and justice as they are protected under His wings from evil in hell. Perfect love and perfect justice protect. Therefore we must conclude that the torment that those in hell experience is calibrated just right to restrain those in hell with evil hearts from committing horrendous evil. These are a few of God’s justifiable reasons for hell. There are infinitely many more seeing that logical explanations are infinite in number and God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge. As long as God has morally sufficient and justifiable reasons for hell it’s not unjust for it to exist. God and the saints delight in the justice. You have an unbiblical concept of love, justice, and happiness. The happiness of the creature consists in the knowledge of God. If the knowledge of God is imperfect so is the happiness of the creature.

#121

Version:1.0 StartHTML:000000238 EndHTML:000019609 StartFragment:000018379 EndFragment:000019577 StartSelection:000018379 EndSelection:000019577 SourceURL:https://www.beliefnet.com/prayers/protestant/addiction/serenity-prayer.aspx

Serenity Prayer

- Reinhold Niebuhr (1892-1971)

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
forever in the next.
Amen.

Read more at https://www.beliefnet.com/prayers/protestant/addiction/serenity-prayer.aspx#RDHkjeVAozgcQi3O.99

#122

God and saints delight in the justice and that is why there is eternal happiness in heaven despite loved ones suffering eternally in hell? And you say I have an unhealthy view of love???

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#123

Yes. because perfect love and perfect justice protect children from abusive evil. Even if it is a loved one.

#124

Protection from abusive evil is not a sufficient condition of happiness.

#125

I don’t even see where the Bible ever declares that the purpose of some hellish location of hopeless torment is for the purpose of protecting us from the abuse of the lost. The notion that this is the only way Abba could protect those of us he loves from dear lost loved ones seems hopelessly human and anemic.

But if that’s the best He can do, I cannot imagine how I would have joy if I knew those for whom God had given me deep love had been hopelessly left in a lost status short of the creation God has promised to reconcile, unless I was just wrapped up in self. When I look back at the decades where I tried to believe and rationalize such an abysmal view of God’s promises and ability, I honestly think that I was full of narcissism. It’s no wonder that such a belief system left me so unfulfilledly anxious.

1 Like
#126

Is God egotistical Because of Love and Justice?

A lot of people have the misconception that God is egotistical because He seeks glory and worship. What they fail to see is that pride is thinking of yourself more highly than you ought to. For humans to desire the praise and worship of others is egotistical. But we aren’t God. God is the greatest. He is more admirable than anything. We were made to make much of something great. When we do this it completes our joy. The reason God seeks our praise is not because He won’t be complete until He gets it. He does it because we won’t be complete until we give it. This isn’t arrogance on God’s part. It’s love. For it breaks the bondage to the idol of self in the creature. God doesn’t think more highly of Himself than He ought to. He is the greatest Being in existence. His loving and thinking of Himself is in direct proportion to who He is - the greatest of all Beings. Even Christ said to worship only God when He was tempted by Satan.

God is Christ

God is Father

Christ worshipped Father

God worshiped God

God worshiped Himself

God loves Himself more than anything. For us to do this is vanity for we are not God. There are ways we are to be like God and ways we are not to be like God. He alone is God. He delights in His image more than anything which is first and foremost His humility.

God worships God therefore I worship God.

#127

It’s all through the Bible that God is a protector. Oh! how glorious and powerful God is, by defending and protecting His children from all that evil!!

From R.C. Sprouls Reformation Study Bible

22:15** Outside**. See 20:15; 21:8, 27. All evil doers are banished from the holy city, not only to punish them for their evil, but to protect the city from their contamination. The firmness of God’s commitment to exclude evil from the final kingdom is a blessing and an encouragement to the saints.

From the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible:

22:15 Outside : The heavenly city is protected from sinful contamination, with evil doers kept far outside it’s walls

#128

If you’re like me you have gotten wrapped up in seeking the praise and attention of others. But God has broken this bondage to the idol of self in me by satisfying my heart with His glory. According to the Catholic Fr. Reginald Garrigou - Lagrange, O.P. in His book “Providence” God’s zeal for His glory (Loving Himself above all) isn’t egotistical for God because He is the greatest sovereign good and therefore must love Himself as such. Not to do so would be a sin. Moreover, the more we glorify Him the more our humility increases. In other words God’s zeal for His glory breaks the bondages to selfishness in us. He gives Himself to us in seeking His glory for the purpose of us being satisfied in His glory. Even Jesus gave the glory to God. God’s love of self-giving breaks the bondage to the idol of self to center our affections on God. He is all-powerful and I give Him the glory. I am powerless and depend on Him. God’s grace gives me the ability to enjoy making much of Him. In this way God is kept at the center. Jesus worshipped God therefore I worship God.

Catholic Prayer (Litany of Humility)

That others may be loved more than I, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be esteemed more than I, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That, in the opinion of the world, others may increase and I may decrease, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be chosen and I set aside, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be praised and I unnoticed, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be preferred to me in everything, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

There are ways we are like God and ways we are not. We cannot be like God in every way. Knowing the Creator creature distinctions should produce a measure of humility in us.

God is all-powerful - I am not

God is in control of the universe - I am not

God is self-sufficient - I am not

God is infinite in wisdom - I am not

God is perfect - I am not

God is all knowing - I am not

God in infinitely glorious and beautiful - I am not

I trust and rely on God. His glory is the beauty of His infinite perfections. The more I glorify God like Jesus did the more glorious I become. The glory of the creature is in humility.

John 8:50 ~~ I do not seek My own glory. There is One who seeks it, and He is the Judge.