The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Catholic Church and Universalism

The best way is to find a link (or links) and share it. I have great respect, for the Roman Catholic church - since Vatican II. As well as the Eastern Orthodox church. In fact, in terms of motorcycle gang terminology. I would be a prospect of both churches. I eventually want to become - a full, patched in member…of either the OCA (Orthodox Church of America) motorcycle gang or the RC (Eastern Church Branch) motorcycle gang.

The Levels of Club Affiliation

I also like how RC priest - Father Richard Rohr…of Wisdom and Contemplation…also covers other aspects, of what I call experiential spirituality. I’m a big believer in it. As long as it comes, from an ancient and established tradition. And not some new age, goofy stuff.

Let me quote a bit, from Fr. Richard Rohr’s newsletter, I received today:

The common view of hell and a quid pro quo God is based not on Scripture but on Dante’s Divine Comedy —great poetry, but not good theology. The word “hell” is not mentioned in the first five books of the Bible. Paul and John never once use the word. Most of the Eastern fathers never believed in a literal hell, nor did many Western mystics.

Hi again! Just submitted my paper to mercyuponall.org that highlights the many and surprisingly in-your-face Universal Reconciliation quotes from the Documents of the Vatican II (1962-1965). Just those excerpts came to roughly 26 pages. Here is one example: “…the Gospel’s message that the human race was to become the Family of God” (Gaudium et Spes 32).

Here is the link: http://www.mercyuponall.org/2018/09/22/universal-reconciliation-in-the-roman-catholic-church-encouraging-references/

But again, feel free to email me directly if you’d care for a pdf or word version.

God bless!
Pete

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Well done! And very convincing. Thanks.

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The Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox churches and related historical churches… are much more open to universalism…at least to pray for it or hope for it…then are their Protestant counterparts. I’m in dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church of America, about becoming a prospect. Then in a few months or so,…I’ll become a full, patched in member - of one of them.

Do they have their own line of leathers?

I don’t know. But they do have their own patches they wear…to signify you are an “official” member.

If you are patched in, will your free-thinking, free-spirited avatar have to go? Will you become stodgy, lemming-like, ‘evangelical’? Must you repudiate the Red Road, holistic healing, and other interesting accessories to your vision?May it not be so, Randy!! Stay you, you! :slight_smile:

ape%20not%20evangelical

Not necessarily, Dave. Especially if I go the Catholic Church route. You see, there are Roman Catholic, Native Americans - who also practice the Native spiritual ways. Some are even dual spiritual citizens. You will find folks, that are both Native American medicine men and Catholic priests.

Holistic health has nothing to do with religion. And no one has a monopoly, on spiritual healing. I can still be into homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine (actually, I know a Chicago Chinese doctor into this…and he has a US Calvinist, theological degree…see Agape Healing, under “who we are”)

And I can express things, from the EC theological viewpoint (that’s the Eastern Catholic Church viewpoints) - without conflict. I would just say I hold it, as a minority theological viewpoint…although if you count the EO churches as a whole - outside the RC structure - it’s a huge difference.

And I don’t think either the RC or EO churches, have an “official” position on Zombies…or what happens during the tribulation.

Good! I hope (if you go through with it) that it works out very well for you.

Well, I know what to expect. I have friends who are Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox…And have known them for years. I’m just an inquirer or potential prospect now. Besides, Geoffrey used to belong to this forum…he was an EO member…and expressed theological opinions, like “instant transformation and redemption of all - at death”.

This short YouTube video dispirits the rich heritage, of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.

I’m in accord with this comment, from a YouTube commentator:

Their differences are minimal, the Catholics represent the Western countries, and the Orthodox are representative of the Eastern countries. Both churches celebrate Mass/Liturgy and revere Saint Mary as well as Jesus Christ. Enough with the interdenominational conflicts. We should reserve our energies for praying and worshipping Jesus Christ, the Only One True Savior and Redeemer of the World.

@Joe121589

I’m a recent Catholic convert from nondenominational Evangelicalism (though I’ve retained tremendous respect for Evangelical Christians and love them as brothers and sister in Christ). I take dogmas and heresy very seriously, so I’ve tried my best to understand what I as a Catholic am obligated to affirm. Through personal study of Catholic dogmas, I’ve come to the conclusion that my dogmatic universalism is acceptable. I now am very outspoken about it around other Catholics.

However when I first was convinced of universalism, I wasn’t so sure that it was an acceptable position. The priests at my local parish say dogmatic universalism is clear heresy. This sent me into deep emotional turmoil because I am deeply committed to the Church’s teachings. So being sneaky, I found another a priest at another parish in uptown Charlotte. It was a relief to hear the words “you don’t have to believe anyone is in Hell. Period.” He also told me he knows Catholic professors who are dogmatic universalists and he thinks it’s not heretical.

Anyways, as to how I cast universalism into Catholic terms, I interpret Hell and Purgatory to be states, not places. Both reside in the place called Gehenna. So in a sense, I can say those who go to “Purgatory” are in Hell/Gehenna. The problem is that talking this way confuses Catholics because the notion of a purgatorial hell has been so wholly separated from notion of what the call Hell.

If you say “Hell is temporary” while referring to what the Church calls “Hell,” you’re a heretic. That is because they’ve dogmatically defined Hell to be eternal. But you are not required to believe it’s a place. Hell can be a state. But Hell as defined by the Church must be understood as eternal.

But if you say “hell is temporary” while referring to what the Church calls “Purgatory,” you only get traditional priests calling you a modernist, which isn’t nearly as bad. :joy:

The only two churches that have historical roots, are the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox (along with Oriental Orthodox, etc.). The problem I find with Orthodoxy, is the opinion of Catholic theology. Well, what about the saints of the Catholic church? Do we just dismiss that? Or things can be seen theologically, from two different lenses. Take purgatory, for example. It’s a place in Roman theology. But in Orthodox theology, they have a similar concept – as a state. Where they experience theosis before the final unification – after death. The growth in theosis grows in hell, where they are temporary undergoing purification. I can’t see the western church, as being completely wrong. I think we can have common EO and RC unity on purgatory, when we look at it as states.

“If they can make penicillin out of moldy bread, then they can sure make something out of you.”-- Muhammad Ali

The notion of purgatory is associated particularly with the Latin Church (in the Eastern Catholic churches it is a doctrine, though it is not often called purgatory , but the final purification or the *final theosis

As sunii Bali shared, in his newsletter today:

.Or, as someone else once philosophized, "The length of a minute depends on which side of the bathroom door you are.

It should also be noted, that the Eastern Orthodox / Eastern Catholics… look at heaven and hell as equally - being in the presence of God. It’s our reaction to that presence.

The chief disagreement between the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy…according to a brilliant answer at What is the difference between Eastern Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox - is this:

The Eastern Catholic Churches are 23 sui juris Churches who are in full communion with Rome, the Eastern Orthodox, on the other hand, are not and find their unity at Constantinople.

There is really only one disagreement at the doctrinal level between Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and that is over the nature of the papal supremacy. The other “disagreements” aren’t really disagreements but mostly different traditions of the western and eastern churches.

Both Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Eastern Catholics hold to the Byzantine view of purgatory which is a completely acceptable theological point of view within the Church. They see purgatory as a state of final theosis where one completes their journey with God and achieves unity with him, hereby entering into a heavenly state before the universal resurrection of the dead.

The Latin conception of purgatory sees it as a state where a soul who has died in a state of grace but still need purification and undergoes a suffering to achieve this. After purification, one may experience the beatific vision in heaven awaiting the universal resurrection of the dead.

As for unleavened and leaved bread, Eastern Orthodox and many Eastern Catholic Churches use leavened bread as this symbolizes the resurrection of Christ. This is the tradition of the eastern Churches and is fully valid. Christ is as present in the eastern Eucharist as he is in the western Eucharist.

The Latin Church primarily uses unleavened bread as Jesus originally used and as the early Church did, but as said, leavened bread is perfectly valid. This is the tradition of the west.

Lastly, in regards to the filioque, this also is not a theological difference. Some Eastern Orthodox try to make it that way, but it’s really an issue of semantics rather than actual doctrine. Both the Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Church believe in the same thing in regards to the procession of the Holy Spirit as defined in the 17th Ecumenical Council of Florence and Basel (1431-1449). Many Eastern Catholic Churches continue to follow their traditions and may not include the filioque in their version of the Nicene creed.

“The Greeks asserted that when they claim that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, they do not intend to exclude the Son; but because it seemed to them that the Latins assert that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from two principles and two spirations, they refrained from saying that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The Latins asserted that they say the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son not with the intention of excluding the Father from being the source and principle of all deity, that is of the Son and of the holy Spirit, nor to imply that the Son does not receive from the Father, because the holy Spirit proceeds from the Son, nor that they posit two principles or two spirations; but they assert that there is only one principle and a single spiration of the holy Spirit, as they have asserted hitherto. Since, then, one and the same meaning resulted from all this, they unanimously agreed and consented to the following holy and God-pleasing union, in the same sense and with one mind.”

  • ECUMENICAL COUNCIL OF FLORENCE (Session 6)

Now, the majority of the Eastern Catholic Churches were out of communion with Rome at one time, and this includes the major Churches like the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church which was first united to Rome at the Union of Brest (1595-1596) after breaking from the rest of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Every Eastern Catholic Church has a long and complex and ancient history and you can read about each online.

The only Church that never broke from Rome is the Maronite Church, which was never technically out of communion with, although they were very isolated for a number of years and may have held to Monothelitism at one point. They were rediscovered during the crusades and submitted willingly to Rome leaving behind any heresy they might have once held onto.

The Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church, a Byzantine Catholic Church, also is technically an exception to this because they never split from Rome. The Byzantine church in southern Italy and Sicily was made up of primarily Greek Christians who inhabited the area after originating during the time when the Byzantine empire controlled that area. They had a influx of Albanians during the 15th century, hence the “Italo-Albanian” part. They weren’t always sui juris though, and were under the control of Latin bishops at one time, while still retaining their Byzantine traditions and liturgy, the same found in other Byzantine Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches.

It’s been a very long time since I’ve posted… I am currently in a season of discernment as I contemplate a conversion to Catholicism from the North American Anglican Church. Would love to converse with other Catholics on this board, if anyone would have the time or inclination.

My heart and my mind are joyfully convinced of Apokatastasis. But as I read through the Catechism, I am finding myself (obviously) not in agreement with the official teachings primarily around the “everlasting” nature of hell. Yet, I am resonating deeply with Catholic theology otherwise! It seems to me it’s somewhat easier to push and probe theological boundaries from the inside (think Ilaria Ramelli) then to try to enter into the Church doing so… Does this make sense?

Could really use suggestions and encouragement! Thanks so much.

I would say thats something you’d have to decide based on your intuition. Is holding truth back to congregate with those who teach falsehoods (such as eternal torment) worth the trade off?

Also is it worth risking being put in a position to be influenced and swayed by teaching you know are false?

I dont think thats a decision someone can make for you. Nor should what I say next be the sole purpose of your decision. But to me Id rather be alone in truth than in company with those who teach against it.

I mean who knows. Maybe you meet some people there and teach them truth. But I personally doubt that from personal experience of trying to teach Church goers about Gods ultimate plan.

Here’s an interesting article, from today’s Patheos’ Catholic newsletter. Luckily (if I read the article correctly), no Catholic clergy is openly writing about dogmatic universalism.

Thank you for the responses. So, a few thoughts come to mind…

To enter the Catholic Church (if they let me!) knowing my conviction around universal restoration is a minority position (at best), is really no different than my experience as an Anglican currently. Therefore, this dynamic would not significantly change for me.

Also, please know I’m not asking anyone to help me make this decision, only looking for folks who might have personal experience or insight they might want to share?

Thanks also for the informative article! Very thought provoking…

For me, all this is about the person of Jesus, and not just theology. Its about the Eucharist, and being drawn into deeper relationship with Christ through the prayer and worship that is the Mass. And of course there’s so, so much more, but this is the heart of the decision for me.

The Catholic Church is a wide umbrella, and I know there are other Catholics embracing the same hopes and convictions I have… what does that look like for them? Are they converts or cradle Catholics?

I’m currently reading the Catholic Reading Guide to Universalism (Wild), with forward by Robin Parry! (I believe the author is now more convinced by Conditional Immortality.)

So how can I move forward? Is it possible? Would love to hear your stories and encouragement, or otherwise…

If a new thread is a better way to start this conversation, please let me know. :wink:

Well, I have lifelong friends…who are Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox…I’m currently in the RCIA program, of the RC church. And there will be some up and coming - Eastern Orthodox catechism classes…with the Orthodox Church in America. I’m more draw to Orthodoxy and its ancient Divine Liturgy. Both churches are sacramental churches…they believe in the real presence in communion. I can’t direct you in how to go forward, in the RC church - as a dogmatic universalist. I’m a hopeful one. So I would fit into either church.

Have you conversed with anyone in the RCIA program about hopeful Universalism?

I’ve considered Eastern Orthodoxy, but I’m too convinced of the Chair of St. Peter… papal authority.

I try hard to study all these things for myself, like a good life long protestant, which is sort of ironic.

I guess ultimately I would consider myself hopeful as well; at least I’m not dogmatic enough for UR to be a deal breaker of any sort.

I appreciate your thoughtful responses, and pray God’s guidance in your journey as well!