Right, I’m not talking about what God seeks in our salvation or wholeness, but what he expects us to do in evaluating decisions about moral actions.
That is a point, but a point from a certain frame of view. For instance, our view of children’s rights just in the last 100 years has leapt at an incredible pace, but it took a lot for us (humanity) to get there. There are still places where children and women are treated as sub human or sub citizens. But I would argue that there is something that is in us that compels us to treat all the same, women, children men different races…
I think that there can be a disconnect between the monster God who can do anything He wants at any time for His pleasure and a Father who has for what ever realized that some things have to be done at certain times with certain peoples to help humanity find it’s way. As to the slaughter of innocent children, we could say he is still doing it today by allowing abortion, if you believe in such a thing. And if we look at the big scope, what the hell would be the difference if God had said, go into such and such a land and kill EVERY MAN OVER 18. I would bet there would be some of them in the land that could well be considered innocent. No offence, but not much difference from a innocent child or and innocent 19 year old.
No, I don’t take the Calvinist view, but do view God as smarter than me. (which is where the thread seems to be going)
Would you just please once and for all explain to me how God saves mankind through faith and repentance, and saved from what?
So what is the fate of a person who does not repent and have faith?
No I will not, having done so very often.
BTW Bob agreed with me on this point of repentance and belief, as does Paidion, John as far as I know, Hermano, Cindy, I think Gabe - lots of others.
In fact, your view of mankind and its cure seems to differ from 99% of all the Christians I have read or studied. I’m not slamming your belief, whatever it is, just stating that in effect, calling all the rest of us mis-guided, pessemistic, ‘evangelical lemmings’ etc etc is getting kind of tiresome, without some great arguments being made for your view.
They go to purgatory. I have this up already but I’ll share it here.
“The Biblical Basis for Purgatory” is the best exegetical case for purgatory I’ve read. Not only does it exegete the many texts from the Bible but gives early church fathers who read the Bible the same way and the early saints and mystics who have experienced not only hell but purgatory. I would just depart a bit from the traditional view of purgatory and go along with Jerry Walls in that I believe that purgatory isn’t for Christians only. It’s for all those who haven’t committed the eternal sin. All blasphemies and all manner of sin will be forgiven in the past age and this age except for the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This was a unique sin that could only be committed at the time of Jesus. Those who committed the sin crucified Jesus thereby committing the worst evil. God returned in 70 AD. to punish with torment forever and ever those who committed the eternal sin. Satan, his angels, and those that crucified Jesus.
Seeing that they committed the eternal sin then I also believe in an infinitely heinous punishment.
St. Teresa of Avila: “On fire, and torn to pieces”
The great 16th century mystic and Doctor of the Church claims to have had this experience of hell:
“The entrance seemed to be by a long narrow pass, like a furnace, very low, dark, and close. The ground seemed to be saturated with water, mere mud, exceedingly foul, sending forth pestilential odors, and covered with loathsome vermin. At the end was a hollow place in the wall, like a closet, and in that I saw myself confined. […]
“I felt a fire in my soul. […] My bodily sufferings were unendurable. I have undergone most painful sufferings in this life… yet all these were as nothing in comparison with what I felt then, especially when I saw that there would be no intermission, nor any end to them. […]
“I did not see who it was that tormented me, but I felt myself on fire, and torn to pieces, as it seemed to me; and, I repeat it, this inward fire and despair are the greatest torments of all. […]
“I could neither sit nor lie down: there was no room. I was placed as it were in a hole in the wall; and those walls, terrible to look on of themselves, hemmed me in on every side. I could not breathe. There was no light, but all was thick darkness. […]
“I was so terrified by that vision – and that terror is on me even now while I am writing – that though it took place nearly six years ago, the natural warmth of my body is chilled by fear even now when I think of it. […]
“It was that vision that filled me with the very great distress…
Cool, there is a lemming in every corner. I’m not sure how you can say you will not state your view and then be critical of the lemming thing. Your view is situated in a particular Meme, and I appreciate it and to some extent, applaud it. It is you.
My view is to open up folks to new ways of thinking about God and scripture. I welcome the opportunity to share my views. I have no corner on truth and will say that which in and of it self seems to be lacking in most theological corners.
Just a purely outside observance… Your view is both dying and will be all but extinct in the future. I’m out today, and you may well be out tomorrow.
Love you and Cheers
Yep… that’s what you get when you track outside of fundamentalism.
Are you Catholic? Only Catholics (and maybe PU folks here), subscribe to purgatory. The Protestants and Eastern Orthodox, don’t agree with it.
This is discussed on the forum here:
Since you loosely use the term “blasphemy” against some folks here. Let’s see what some sites (including Got Questions) - has to say.
I recommend Derek Flood’s “Disarming Scripture” book for helping to make sense of these passages. I wrote a review and detailed summary here:
I find it unfair to accuse that it is God who is “doing” whatever evils God “allows” sinful men to choose to do. I think those who do such things are seen as the responsible party. Do you see no difference in God ordering “go and kill everyone” and the decisions of men to kill their own children? I’d say that God would be responsible for what God tells me to do, but not for the slaughter of abortion if I don’t believe he’s told us to do that.
Of course, as I told Hollytree, I find the belief that God wants innocent children slaughtered or sacrificed consistent with the view of all pagan religions, but not with Jesus’ approach to children, or my conscience. But as I told him, I’m impressed and enlightened to see the willingness of you guys to defend slaughtering children.
In this video clip, John Piper asserts: “It’s right for God to slaughter women and children any time He pleases.”
I believe Piper misunderstands God’s sovereignty; and that also, like many Christians (and prophets), he confuses God with Satan whenever he misattributes evil to God. I believe this confusion happens when people do not recognize the progressive revelation of God’s goodness revealed in the Scriptures—because they have a fearful, legalistic death-grip on the Bible that causes them to read the Scriptures by the letter which kills, instead of by the Spirit who gives life.
God was once indeed completely sovereign; however, for the time being He has chosen to give some of his sovereignty to created people, that is, to angels and to men. Therefore, at present, God, by His own choice, is not completely sovereign, and so we must never assign evil to God (such as killing children), but rather to fallen angels and to men.
We are in a classroom, and THE lesson to master here, by the exercise of our own choice, is the decision to surrender back to Christ our individual sovereignty. Each person must come to recognize that God always knows what’s best, and He is trustworthy.
Those who unconditionally surrender themselves to the Savior during their tenure on earth, go to be with God in heaven at physical death. But–
Matthew 25:41 (YLT)
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to THE FIRE, the AGE-DURING, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers.
–those who do not unconditionally surrender in this life will continue their lessons postmortem, outside the City, in the remedial fire, until they finally pass the test by surrendering to Christ, and come in through the always open gates to take the free gift:
On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
When the very last person (presumably Satan) has finally surrendered to Jesus, then the purpose of “the second death,” the lake of fire, will be finished. And God, the Son, will relinquish back to God, the Father, his role as “Savior”—that work being finished, since everyone is finally “saved” (from sin, lies, death, and captivity to self-rule):
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 (NIV)
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ ALL will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, SO THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.
HOW THE CHURCH FATHERS INTERPRETED SCRIPTURE—Brad Jersak
Well here we go, the chicken and egg thoughts. Hey, does God have total control or not? Simple question. Does His allowing constitute doing?
At what point are you saying OT scripture is null and void? The flood account is a good start. Also the Decry by Herod to kill all the babies 2 years old and under is fodder for thought. Mind you Bob, I’m sure you have went over this time and again. But is God involved as I think He is, or are you saying the scripture is tainted?
I don’t believe in satan as an entity, but I do agree with the idea of ‘progressive’ revelation.
There is no being called satan. Satan is the adversary in us we portray to the God of creation. I appreciate your view but I disagree
So be it
But regarding progressive revelation, we may ask:
So was the Old Testament view of Satan different than the New Testament view? Yes, vastly different, but perhaps the best way to put it is not so much that the Old Testament was wrong about Satan, but that the Old Testament was almost completely uninformed about him. The first reference to Satan [in my Bible] is not even until 548 pages into the Old Testament. Satan is first mentioned only 3 pages into the New Testament. The total number of times Satan is mentioned in the Old Testament is 19 times, 14 of which are in the book of Job. The New Testament mentions Satan (or his devils) nearly 200 times, despite the fact that it is five times shorter than the Old Testament in length. Richard Murray.
Satan was cast into the lake of fire is 70 A.D. where he is being tormented day and night forever and ever. Nonetheless, Satan was the one who destroyed Job’s family. What He meant for evil God meant for good. Job says, "The Lord has given and the Lord has taken away, blessed be the name of the Lord. In all this Job did not sin with his lips.
So you are telling me you have the inside scoop to who or what satan really is?