The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Commands Of The Monster God Of The Old Testament


When summarizing the Gospel for the first Gentile converts, Peter described “how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power, who went about DOING GOOD and HEALING ALL who were OPPRESSED OF THE DEVIL; for God was with Him.” (Acts 10:38).

And we have many revelations in the New Testament about him, like these explanations of Jesus,

He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44b.

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. John 10:10.

Fallen angels are people like us, with a mind, will, and emotions. For example,

Acts 19:13-17 (NIV)
13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.”
14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?”
16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.
17 When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor.


Well, at least we agree there is a devil. But regarding 70 AD, I am still seeing much demonic evil in today’s world, e.g., the sword, famine, and plague. I believe the devil is yet to be evicted, but we are to resist him, using spiritual, not carnal, weapons. God has already disallowed all evil through the finished work of Christ, but Christians need stand on, and enforce, that victory.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 1 Peter 5:8.

Some demonic activity is through human agents, like the use of sword. But we are not to be passive victims, defrauded of our inheritance in Christ. And we know we are to instruct people in the truth, in the hope that “they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” (1 Tim. 2:25).


I believe Satan and his demons are in hell. Hell is another dimension that is outside our dimensions. So, I guess Demons can still influence us like they did Job. What Satan meant for evil God meant for good in killing Jobs children. Job says, The Lord has given and the Lord has taken away, blessed be the name of the Lord. The text goes on to say, in all this Job did not sin with his lips. God was the ultimate cause or secondary cause in that He allowed Satan to take Jobs children. You identify God with evil and therefore commit blasphemy. The cross was evil on Satan’s part but good on God’s part. God planned the crucifixion. (acts 4:27-28). To paraphrase the OT mirror: They meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. (Genesis 50:20). The most profound thing we can say about suffering and evil is that Christ entered into it and turned it for good. There are scores of OT passages on God taking life (He’s the unique giver and taker of life) As I stated in the OP He’s holy (unique). Holiness when applied to God not only refers to moral purity but to everything that separates God from His creation and His creatures. There are ways we are like God and ways we are not. He’s distinct. For example: God in infinite in wisdom and knowledge and sees all circumstances past, present, and future. He’s in a privileged position. He’s all-powerful, all-knowing, omnipresent, self-sufficient, In control of the universe. We are none of these things. What they meant for evil God meant for good. We see this all through the OT when God judges His people. He will use evil to judge His people and then turn around and judge those who brought evil against His people. (Judges 2:11-19; Isaiah 10:5-6) One act two intentions. Mans intentions are evil God’s intentions are holy and good. God didn’t take delight in the evil and suffering in and of itself at the cross. But in what was accomplished at the cross.

hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the LORD. ~~ 1 Cor. 5:5


Your conditional ‘BUT’ negates totally everything you just claimed before that… God’s victorious Christ is NOT dependent upon ANYONE’S efforts… little wonder evangelicalism gets dismissed as insipid and contradictory.


Is that the best you have to believe in a real person as Satan?


I agree. Further, we cannot add anything to Christ’s finished work. But the benefits of his victory should be received, enjoyed, and shared with others.


That is what I’m talking about. :smile:


I agree, but I believe that the only death ever sanctioned by God was that of His Son, to set Creation free from death. (Hence, I don’t believe God wants believers to be martyred, although that certainly does continue to happen in this fallen world. Again, we cannot add to Christ’s finished work.)


True. But it can be misunderstood.
As in “Christ’s work is finished” - really? I agree part of it is. As far as His further work ruling the world and the cosmos, it is not yet finished. And let us remember that Christ is no more obsolete than God is. (Hermano_ I realize YOU already know this)
And ‘finished work’ does not mean that OUR work is done - far from it. The Church, the body of Christ, is still working the Great Commission.


we cannot add to Christ’s finished work

I agree. The Atonement secures the future with the blood bought promises. To see how this works go here. I wrote about this awhile back.

Bible verses about paranoia


Here is the first sanctioned death of God’s son (Lk 3:38)…

Gen 2:17 …but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”


No. I would argue God does not threaten death in this example, or anywhere; He only warns against it. Death is not an approved tool used by God (Hebrews 2:14), but an enemy of God, which He will completely destroy some day (1 Cor. 15:26).


I find “No,” that much of the Bible assumes that people often have choices for which they are responsible, and which can involve sinners doing evil things, indeed acts contrary to what God prefers.


You’re right… ‘SURELY DIE’ was no empty threat — BUT you’re also wrong for nor was it some nebulous warning… God’s command and that’s what it was (2:16), was very real!

So then… your doctrine is 100% in lockstep with the serpent’s affirmation…

Gen 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

Nice :face_with_raised_eyebrow:


:innocent: No, I’m not in lockstep with the serpent. I never said God gave a “nebulous” warning in Gen. 2:17; in this instance, it was a very explicit warning, but certainly not a divine command. (But I have often said that God does no harm; rather, He warns about danger, and offers the way of escape, that is, salvation).


Yet Luke 6:35 does not deny that God kills His enemies now, in the past or in the future.


God is the giver & the taker of mortal human life which lasts but a moment in eternity. Whether that moment is a day or decades. All die. He has the power to keep many innocent babies who die every day from dieing, but He chooses their death. By omitting to choose their life He is practically speaking killing them. Therefore Love Omnipotent kills many innocents every day, that is He is responsible for their deaths. Considering many of them may have lived lives of great suffering, if He had spared them from death, relative to this momentary mortal life their deaths can be considered a mercy. Though i don’t support the view, it seems most Christians believe they get a free pass into an immediate and endless heaven at the instant of their death. In which case killing them could, arguably, be considered for their own good. Killing is not immoral in and of itself. Death is not necessarily a bad thing for anyone. Death is merely the moment of passing from one life to the next.


It’s called:

Which is what the Eastern Orthodox church, gives theological credence too. And even the famous Evangelical Wheaton College…just established a department of Patristics.


Well Hermano, you clearly affirm… “No. I would argue God does not threaten death in this example, or anywhere; He only warns against it.” — this certainly IS exactly what the serpent also affirmed in Gen 3:4 in dismissing any threat of death.

Now you seem to be agreeing… ‘YOU SHALL SURELY DIE’ is indeed “a very explicit warning” — so to what then are you NOW saying God’s command that carried this “very explicit warning” referred? IF not death, which any natural reading affirms, then to what exactly?


That would be an interesting justification that in not intervening to stop it, God endorses abortion and killing one’s children (as the OT admittedly commands be done when they disobey). But I explained to MM above that I don’t see the Bible saying that every time evil men slaughter the innocent, it means that was God’s choice, and tantamount to God choosing their death. I.e. some acts are genuinely evil and violate God’s will.

I think your contention is logical under Calvinism, but does not follow under an Arminian view, and that Scripture sometimes reflects the view that human acts that God allows sinners to commit do not actually mean that God “endorses” those acts. In simplest terms, I don’t see God not intervening in the laws of nature, nor stopping evil men’s deeds, as equivalent to proving that God necessarily calls men to kill the innocent, or endorses every such thing that they do.