The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Fellowship of Evangelical Universalists

Evangelical Universalism
#22

Well First off, I didnt realize I had treaded upon such dangerous ground in suggesting…gasp…somebody start a new church! That said, if it ever becomes a reality I promise not to force anyone to attend who doesnt want to. In the mean time, why throw rocks at someone elses vision? Sanballet stood at the wall and said it cant be done.

Mantenanceman theres no need to try to extinguish someone elses optimsm or the inspiration they derive from the example of the bible for building Gods kingdom. If you see a different path by all means follow it. Please afford others the right to imagine great things without declaring them somehow wrong headed. For God is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or dare to imagine.
This is my last post of reply to you on this particular subject because I think we have gone the way of Paul and Barnabus on this one.

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#23

wow. thats amazing research.

#24

Remember the story of the 4 lepers trapped outside the city during the terrible seige? 2Kings 7:3-20

They found a great feast after God chased away the enemy army from their camp. They ate and ate and then realized the starving people inside the city who did not know about the miracle. They said this is not right. We must tell the others. The four lepers went to the people who had banished them as outcasts and shared what they had found and the city was saved.
Its a guess on my part but Im gonna name those 4 lepers Matthew Mark Luke and John. And the good news is we are not going to die. Everybody will be saved.

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#25

It certainly is a nice thought, assuming everyone was doomed to begin with. But, I’d suggest no one was doomed and death is the cycle all things in this universe experience. We die, our particles are recycled into other living things.

In a way, this can be viewed as being ‘saved’. We are saved, because nothing is lost in the universe.

But back to my point, to clarify it further; It is a very terrible assumption that all the Abrahamic based religions have adopted the idea that we are “worthy of death (or worse yet, worthy of some hell)” as if we are some evil beings. That type of world view is such a cancer to oneself and the entire paradigm of viewing this world. This isn’t to say some people don’t do a lot of bad things, or that all people fail to reach some type of hypothetical perfection mark. But that in and of itself is a bit of presumption - that is, to say we are expected, or can attain some hypothetical perfection.

So, I suppose in fewer words, I would say this: Of course it is good news, because you believed something incredibly horrible before. ANYTHING is good news compared to the drivel of some cosmic torture chamber. Punishing humans (and all creatures) who don’t measure up to perfection? Yet their creator made them… I can’t imagine being angry with anyone but myself if my “creation” failed to live up to my expectations. In that way, I don’t think it is even feasible to believe that God, if he exists, counts our frail humanity against us and if he wants to teach us, fine - but teachers, at least in human terms, if they are good, are encouragers (I guess that isn’t a word?), they don’t threaten to chop off a child’s hands because he messed up on his cursive for the 20th time.

as George MacDonald said in his Unspoken Sermon - It Shall Not Be Forgiven - “Whatever a good word means, as used by a good man, it means just infinitely more as used by God. And the feeling or thought expressed by that word takes higher and higher forms in us as we become capable of understanding him,–that is, as we become like him.”

The point here, is the goodness we have and experience in this world, must be inferior to that of God’s. So if our goodness wouldn’t do even half of the things most religions supposes God to do, then… Well, we have very little reason to fear.

#26

Agnosticism is the least justifiable position of all. You have no authoritative revelation to appeal to other than the word “god” in the dictionary.
Here we have a book. Its called the bible and its the referance for all things relating to mans relationship with God. If that book is of no value to you, then whats the point of me engaging an effectively nihilistic rational?

#27

The “least justifiable position”? I hope you are kidding, because I could think of many other things far less justifiable.

I use nature as a means of revealing what God is, which is something you clearly don’t respect. Instead, you would desecrate all other books besides the Bible as revealing who or what God is. That seems the most hypocritical position and the least humble. No room for error on your part, which is common with zealots.

In a nutshell your attitude is: “You don’t believe in every word of the Bible, therefore nothing you say matters” But don’t worry, you are in good company, many evangelicals are just as closed minded and arrogant.

#28

Look Mark,

Gabe has some real, real theological issues he holds true. And he has and is giving us input. If you want to make a church so be it , but if you want to Shepard folks, maybe you would do well to listen to people like Gabe.

He will teach you more than a thousand theologians. And all the seminaries.

Just my opinion, thanks Gabe.

#29

I would never go to a Agnostic forum and say what I said. The reason is because the forum is for Agnostics who have a set of ideas that fit under thier banner. Coming into and EVANGELICAL Universalist forum and telling people the bible isnt the only book and that hell doesnt exist is just begging for a disagreement. I dont go into synagogues and walk around telling people they missed Jesus. It has to do with respecting the banner people worship under and not going into thier established domains and trying to talk them down. I think you’ll find thats pretty much the position of forums of all sorts of subjects.

#30

Well, if you are really into evangelism, you may ask the question as to why someone would consider themselves agnostic and still hanging around the EU, There is a real understanding here in this forum that all kinds of people can and do come to the table and are not only accepted but we all freely understand the Real deal is that Christ came for all, That Christ was the atonement FOR ALL SIN. :laughing:

#31

We all? I don’t think, all his other attributes notwithstanding (and I appreciate them), that Gabe would accept that statement of yours, Chad. How could he?

#32

I totally appreciate your desire for acceptance in a forum. But…and I say this from experience…it gets pretty tiresome when a topic cant be explored by those in the same villiage ideologically because those on a completely different continent continually over and over require rebuttal on the fundamental issues that create the forum.
I want to talk about starting a church so i start a post. Somebody then starts posting long comments about other religions and no hell. Its off topic. Feel free to start a thread of your own ideas. But dont barge in on mine and demand I let the topic get totally derailed. Yet here we are.

#33

Mark, you are new here. I was what I would consider a strong EU believer long before you found out this amazing thing you found out a few weeks ago. Feel free to search my posts from when I joined. I was also active on tentmaker for many years before that.

This might surprise you, but even though this forum has the word “evangelical” in it, probably less than half the members in this forum are in that camp.

This forum has been very open in the past, with great conversations and respect on all sides. As I read through my first post in this thread, I couldn’t help but wonder why it warranted such harsh words from you, nor do I know even now. I suspect you, like many others, judge people by their labels. To you, you look at my screen name and assume whatever it is about agnostics you wanted to assume and carried on with it.

I saw your attack as essentially ad hominem, as you discounted everything I said without addressing it and declared some dogmatic assertions. Yet, again, if you go back to my post, you will be hard pressed to find that I was dogmatic.

Now for a bit of harsh truth. Based on your responses, I can say I’d never be a member of your church with the attitude you have towards others beliefs. I suspect many in your flock would feel the same if they experienced the same attitudes towards them. But, maybe you wouldn’t be so bold in person? What you see here, is what you would see in person. You can pretend I am some trouble maker, since it would ease your conciense, but it wouldn’t be true. Whether people agree with me or not, 99.9% of my conversations are respectful, and I think most, maybe all would back that up.

Life is a journey, good luck on yours.

#34

Why would I have a problem with that Dave? You know me, and you act as if I don’t see this as a possibility.

Will I accept that God tortures people? No, I made that clear and I guess I would be surprised if any EU believes or accepts that.

I don’t recall denying that Christ will save all, only that I doubt it. As you very well know, I am an agnostic that believes that EU is a beautiful thing - that is God saving all. But I am also a rationalist, then the doubts. But we have been through this all before and you know this.

One further note: Doubting Thomas’s are very similar to what I would consider agnosticism. If it makes you feel better, consider me a weaker brother. I don’t care about that, just being honest with myself and others. To hide doubt, is dishonest to me. But I do wonder how many more are like me, towing the line because they perceive a critical and judgmental spirit towards them, they say the lines and put on a smile. Just a thought.

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#35

I do ‘know’ you Gabe and further, as I said above, I appreciate the honesty and clarity of your contributions.

Do you, in fact, agree with the above quote from Chad?

To specifically call yourself an Agnostic is to perhaps send different signals to different folks, right? Not everyone knows what exactly you are agnostic about, only that you are invested enough in the term to use it deliberately. Even more so, to have understood what we are all talking about, having been there and done that, and then to back away, begs for a fuller explanation than can be summed up in the concept ‘agnostic.’
Just sayin’, my friend - I think you are sure of some things, and not sure of other things, but that’s all of us. When what you are not sure of, or think noone can be sure of, cuts to the heart of what many consider the basis of all Being, Community, and Love - well, it’s a mixed message. That’s all I’m saying.
I’m personally very happy that you are a part of this Forum.

#36

Thanks Dave. I appreciate that. You as well. Your point is valid, though it is very difficult to self label. We decide on the best one we think fits, but we know not all labels fit all things about us. I think you already have a pretty clear idea based on my previous posts, and it would likely take an auto biography to answer your question, as would be the case for any of us here.

Just saying, Christ saving and atoning for all is a message I can get behind. Of course our ideas on what atonement are are likely to get more quibling out of us… :slight_smile:

#37

This is where you are sorely mistaken. Membership here has been very open and not an elite exclusivist position you are trying to domineer. Again, I have been here for years, and you come in and think you know how this place is ran and who is or is not accepted? Do you dominate your congregation this way?

#38

ME: Actually, that is a very interesting point. We pic reference names based on our beliefs. ‘Agnostic Gabe’ as denoted, at least to me, is someone who has wrestled with and looked back on their belief. Honest and it is what it is. ‘Pastor Mark’ somehow to me denotes a place of superiority, though that may not be the case, I am just stating a fact. I see it as I see it.

We’ll go from there. Little things can send big messages. :thinking:

Peace.

#39

You might not, but almost all of evangelicals would feel it is their duty. If one feels they have truth, why wouldn’t they share it?

You would be welcome on an agnostic forum, but if you became dogmatic, like you are, you probably wouldn’t last long. If you merely provided your opinion, they would respect it and who knows, you might even gain some converts.

But something tells me you are out of touch with evangelicals. Because every evangelical church I have attended puts a huge emphasis on witnessing and your statements seem to indicate tribe vs tribe mentality.

This will be my final post in this thread, out of respect for PastorMark. I must admit, I did not expect someone to be upset with different opinions in this thread, so it really took me by surprise. This forum has so many great conversations and often goes off topic. In fact, I think most threads this last year has been pretty much giant chat rooms, not narrowly focused threads.

That said, I can appreciate a thread staying on topic, I if I came in with the expectation that my thread stayed on topic, I might have been annoyed as well.

I am personally a fan of moderation, and sadly, we have not had any for a very long time. But in a way, if you think about it, that is how mature we are as a group. We have so many differing views, and yet most conversations remain respectful, for the most part.

That said, I’ma gonna drop out if this thread and I’ll harbor or no I’ll will towards PM.

#40

Pastor Mark,

Speaking of Tentmaker, i’d suggest Gary Amirault would be a good contact to share the OP with & get feedback from. http://www.tentmaker.org/

This might also be of interest:

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/form.html

And the long list of contacts (sites) here: SNIPPETS FROM MY HARD COPY UR LIBRARY

(which was posted in Roger Tutt’s thread, July 2, 2017.)

#41

I opened this topic to expound on the concept of the virtual church. PastorMark’s “The Fellowship of Evangelical Universalists” has suggested that it might be helpful if “Evangelical Universalism could become an organized denomination with creed and accountability as well as networking and support”.

His is a noble idea. However, judging from some of the replies, is it really worth supporting? How long would it last until splits took place, almost inevitable when we examine what happens in almost every organized church.

What typically takes place in a church service - let’s say an average community of believers in Christ?

Worship in one form or another;
Preaching based on the scriptures
Teaching
Fellowship
Communion

A ‘virtual church’, e.g. this Forum, could not include the first or the last of these elements, and preaching is not really feasible. Teaching and fellowship is definitely possible. When I was much younger, attending an independent Baptist church, there were many opportunities to “give your testimony”, telling the church or the youth group how the Lord was working in your life, such as how you came to know Him in the first place and how He was currently guiding you. Following is my own up-to-date testimony.

There was never a time in my life when I didn’t believe in God. I believe He created all things, including me. I heard and read the Bible stories from a young age. When I was 13 years old, I came to a full understanding about Jesus and salvation. I believed He died so that my sin would be forgiven and that I would go to heaven when I died.

I married my wife Alida in 1966. We made some major moves together, raising nine children on three different continents. Wherever we lived, we found a church home where the gospel was believed and preached and where there was genuine love shown by the church members. The denomination these churches were part of was not particularly important to us. One doctrine, however, that they held in common was the belief that eternal conscious torment is the fate awaiting all who die without having come to the Lord in repentance and faith. We believed it too.

Our life took an unwelcome turn in 2012 when Alida was diagnosed, first with Parkinson’s disease and then with Lewy Body Disease, a virulent form of dementia. She succumbed to it on December 27, 2017, dying in her own bed at home, her family of nine children gathered around her bed. When her spirit departed this life her face literally glowed.

Our church was very supportive throughout the five years of Alida’s illness. The pastor visited frequently. Many of the ladies prepared cooked meals for us. I would keep some of them in the freezer and take one out when we needed it. I warmed it up in a glass dish in our microwave oven. One evening I almost dropped the dish because it was so hot to my bare hands. That caused me to think about the agony that men women and children would experience if they were consigned to the punishment of hell-fire. The pain would be much more intense and would be endured for eternity, not just for the few seconds it took me to drop the bowl onto the countertop.

Licking my fingers, I asked myself “is that what hell is like”? Then, “can God really torment men, women and children in fire infinitely hotter for an eternity which never ends”? I knew I could no longer believe that, despite having been taught it as truth. “I am made in the image of God”, I argued to myself, “if God can do that, why can’t I”? I knew I could not set fire to an animal and watch it die. I was aware I might be in danger of committing blasphemy, departing from what I had been taught to believe. I realized it was precisely because I was made in God’s image that I couldn’t torture any living thing in such a way, let alone a man, woman or child. I began to question the whole doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

I shared my experiences with my pastor. I had previously told him I was becoming less enamoured of some of the doctrines held by the Reformed churches. In fact, I had shared my doubts about the whole idea of systematic theology which, in my opinion, seems to be taken as equivalent to scripture. I had also told him I could not, in all conscience, put my name to the Form of Subscription which all elders must sign. The Form requires one to agree that the confessions of the church “do fully agree with the Word of God”, to my mind claiming equivalence to Scripture.

I also told two of the elders about how I was questioning the doctrine of eternal damnation. Like my pastor, they would not entertain any thought that the church’s doctrines may be in error. One elder told me that he had heard another pastor explain that hell was “separation from God”. That’s a much softer way to consider what hell might be like compared with what most creeds state. But it ignores the fact of the omnipresence of God. Ps. 139:8 “If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there”.
Neither the elders, nor my pastor, would entertain any thought that the church’s doctrines may be in error. I have chosen to remain silent in future and forego any further discussion on the subject.

I checked what the churches confessed about judgment, eternity and hell.

Westminster Confession, Chapter XXXIII:
And therefore the consideration of this judgment, is justly terrible and dreadful to the wicked and ungodly, but most desirable and comfortable to the righteous and elect: because then their full deliverance shall be perfected, and there they shall receive the fruits of their labor and trouble which they have borne. Their innocence shall be known to all, and they shall see the terrible vengeance which God shall execute on the wicked, who most cruelly persecuted, oppressed and tormented them in this world; and who shall be convicted by the testimony of their own consciences, and being immortal, shall be tormented in that everlasting fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels.

Belgic Confession, Article 37
And therefore the consideration of this judgment, is justly terrible and dreadful to the wicked and ungodly, but most desirable and comfortable to the righteous and elect: because then their full deliverance shall be perfected, and there they shall receive the fruits of their labor and trouble which they have borne. Their innocence shall be known to all, and they shall see the terrible vengeance which God shall execute on the wicked, who most cruelly persecuted, oppressed and tormented them in this world; and who shall be convicted by the testimony of their own consciences, and being immortal, shall be tormented in that everlasting fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels.

The Baptist Confession
God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.

I continued to search the Internet. One such, about John Calvin, caused me to read about the fate of Michael Servetus who was burned at the stake for the crime of heresy. (He was a unitarian). Following is an account of his death. It was hard to read it. My respect for Calvin dwindled, although he was a captive of his time.

The testimony of eye-witness Sebastian Custello about the execution of Michael Servetus (1511 – 1553).
Servetus was denounced by Calvin as a heretic (he was Unitarian) and sentenced to death.
He was led to the stake saying “O God, save my soul, O Jesus, Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me”. No cruelty was spared on him as his stake was made of bundles of fresh wood of the live oak still green, mixed with its branches still bearing leaves. On his head, a straw crown was placed, sprayed with sulphur.
He was seated on a log with his body chained to a post with an iron chain. His neck was bound with four or five turns of a thick rope. This way, Servetus was being fried at a slow fire for over half an hour before he died. To his side were attached copies of his book which he sent ‘confidentially’ to Calvin for “his fraternal opinion.”
A legend has it that when a strong wind blew and separated the flames, Servetus exclaimed: “Poor me who cannot finish my life in this fire! The two hundred crowns and the gold necklace that they took from me should suffice to buy sufficient wood to burn me miserably”.
His last words were, “O Jesus, Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me.”

I joined this Forum in December 2017. Alongside excellent articles and videos that have been made available, its members are proving to be extremely helpful in my continuing search for truth about life after death. I have learned a lot and I think I have established very friendly relationships here.

How I wish I could have discussed all my doubts and struggles with Alida. She would have understood.