The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Fourth Soteriology and "The Ugly Truth"

Most of us are familiar with the three basic categories of broad soteriology. Keeping in mind there are variations (including among non-Protestants) these may be broadly classified as:

Katholic (universalistic) == God acts persistently to save all sinners from sin.

Calvinistic == God acts persistently to save some sinners from sin, but does not even intend (much less act) to save other sinners from sin.

Arminianistic == God acts to save all sinners from sin, but does not act persistently to save some sinners from sin.

I have occasionally mentioned that, logically, there is also a fourth soteriology, although I thought no Christian held it. It occurred to me this morning while chewing over something else, however, that while no Christian may formally and explicitly hold this fourth soteriology, I have routinely found most Christians do in fact hold this fourth soteriology in practical practice. Most nominal Arminians in my experience even hold it in an implictly formal way.

I was trying to come up with a name for this fourth option, but since I couldn’t recall any teacher who held it as an explicit example for naming purposes, I tried to think of any special characteristics of it that I could use for building a title. (For example I often call universalism “Katholic” since that’s what “universalistic” means in Greek.)

While thinking about it, I then realized that most times when I see non-universalists appeal to this fourth soteriology, they’re overtly trying to deny universalism or even acknowledging a bit of a handhold for it!

That, combined with its broad technical characteristics (with variations), leads me to call it Anti-Universalism.

Recapping the first three again for easier comparison, and adding the fourth:

Katholic (universalistic) == God acts with original persistence to save all sinners from sin.

Calvinistic == God acts with original persistence to save some sinners from sin, but does not even intend (much less act) to save other sinners from sin.

Arminianistic == God acts to save all sinners from sin, but does not act with original persistence to save some sinners from sin.

Anti-Katholic (anti-universalistic) == God does not even intend (much less act) to save some sinners from sin, and does not act with original persistence to save any other sinners from sin.

The Anti-Kath position doesn’t deny that God may (or even does) save at least some sinners from sin: the scriptures are too clear about at least some people being saved from sin, and besides there has to be something remaining that might be called (without gross abuse of language) “good news”.

But when I hear Calvs or Arms trying to deny universalism, or defending their positions against universalism, they tend to go with this fourth option sooner or later; and pretty commonly I’ll even hear them talk about it as being “the ugly truth” or something of that sort.

I’ve seen Calvs and Arms both go this way, although Arms more often. They approach it from different angles, of course, but the end result is categorically the same.

I’ll give a couple of examples.

One of the big selling points to Arminianism (and its variants) is that we can be sure the gospel really is offered to everyone; salvation really is open to everyone, and so the gospel really is good news for everyone. God isn’t secretly deciding ahead of time or from above that some people will never even have the chance of being saved. If people are lost, that’s their own fault for being sinners. God has done, and does do, everything He can on His side of things–maybe only up to a point, but He doesn’t exclude anyone up to that point.

“Well, what about those who haven’t heard?” The relevant issue here isn’t that sin doesn’t deserve to be punished, but that if God really is doing everything He can to save all sinners from sin, then He may save people post-mortem who die without formally accepting Christ “enough” to “be saved” (however much “enough” is supposed to formally be). But if God saves some people post-mortem, that could open up the possibility for God saving everyone post-mortem which would be universalism. Arminians can get around that within their soteriology (to some extent–Lewis for example just acknowledged the same Arminian principle he held pre-mortem, that eventually God gives up because He’s forced to, not because He wants or authoritatively chooses to.) But if an Arminian is strongly interested in granting even a little leeway toward universalism (which necessarily involves post-mortem salvation for at least some sinners) then we may hear a reply like, “Well God has just chosen that some people will not even have the opportunity to be saved. That’s why we have to go send people!” “But practically no one could be sent before Jesus came.” “Well God has just chosen that some people will not even have the opportunity to be saved, period. That’s the ugly truth, we may not like it, but we’ve got to go with what’s true.”

Calvinists (of various stripes) love to hear this, because this is a formally Calvinistic position. Pointing out this sort of thing is one way how Calvs convince Arms to be Calvs instead. In practice, though, the Arm has taken a Calv position in order to be Anti-Kath.

Another even more common, nearly universal (pardon the pun :wink: ) Arm example: “If God really and truly offers salvation from sin to all sinners, then what about the rebel angels?” “GASP!! ARGGHH!! NO NO NO NO NO!!! God doesn’t offer salvation to demons!” This kind of reply doesn’t usually involve the notion that God has in fact really and truly offered salvation from sin through Christ to rebel angels (as per Colossians 1 for example) but they have refused and at some point God either chose to give up or was eventually invincibly defeated in His salvific goals by the demons. No, usually this kind of reply involves the notion that God never even intended, much less ever acted, to provide salvation from sin to rebel angels at all. An Arminian could go with the former position, but usually takes the latter position instead.

And again, pointing out this sort of thing is one way how Calvs convince Arms to be Calvs instead. In practice, the Arm has taken a Calv position (i.e. that God just outright chooses not to even make salvation from sin possibly possible for some sinners) in order to be Anti-Kath.

Calvinists aren’t quite as likely to take the fourth option, in my experience, but I’ve seen it happen. Typically it happens when Calvinists are challenged on the concept that God is Who is omnipotently and authoritatively and finally and ultimately responsible, first and last and foremost, for sinners not repenting from their sins.

One of the big selling points for Calvinism is that whoever God decides to save from sin, we can be sure He will persist at it until He gets it done, and that He is omnicompetent to get it done. It’s a total victory for God’s grace, 100% successful, no losses. He doesn’t ungraciously lose His patience sooner or later, and He isn’t outright defeated sooner or later. If you’re one of the elect, that’s your good news. It’s not only good news, it’s great news!

But that would be universal salvation unless God on the other hand authoritatively decides that He will not even try to save some sinners from sin. There is no loss here either, because God never even intended to try. He never even empowers sinners with an ability to repent, much less leads them to do so. God may perhaps give some grace and love to the non-elect (or maybe not), but He absolutely does not grant saving love/grace to the non-elect.

The logic to this, however, eventually leaves God as the sole author of sin. Sinners are born with original sin without their choice, but by God’s decree, and by God’s decree some sinners will never have even the slightest real opportunity to repent and be saved by God. Oh, did our original ancestors and/or the rebel angels set up this situation? They did that by God’s decree, too. They had no possibility of choice not to do so. Well, maybe the original humans did (since God eventually saves them), but Satan didn’t–otherwise we could expect God to eventually save Satan! And that would be ridiculously false, right? But then how did Satan and the other angels fall from God’s grace? And if God doesn’t persist in bringing them home, then we can’t really trust that God will persist in bringing His elect home whom He graces either.

In order to protect God as not being the ultimate, first and final author of injustice, Calvinists routinely try to treat sinners as being in fact personally responsible for their sins, as if God does give them a real communion with Him that they willfully refuse–starting with Satan and the rebel angels, continuing with the first human ancestors, and continuing with us today even in our state of original sin.

Arminians (of various stripes) love to hear this, because this is a formally Arminian position. Pointing out this sort of thing is one way how Arms convince Calvs to be Arms instead. In practice, though, the Calv has only partially taken an Arm position in order to be Anti-Kath.

Anti-Katholic (anti-universalistic) == God does not even intend (much less act) to save some sinners from sin, and does not act with original persistence to save any other sinners from sin.

Arm variation == God does not act with original persistence (although maybe with earned persistence if people say and do the right things to convince Him) to save some sinners He intends to save from sin; and God does not even intend (much less act) to save from sin the overwhelming majority of Gentiles (and maybe even Jews) who lived before the start of Christ’s earthly ministry.

Arm variation == God does not act with original persistence (although maybe with earned persistence etc.) to save some sinners He intends to save from sin; and God does not even intend (much less act) to save rebel angels (or at least one of them, namely Satan) from sin.

Calv variation == God does not even intend (much less act) to save some sinners from sin (such as Satan and/or the vast majority of people before Christ’s ministry); and/or God also does not persist in acting to save at least some sinners from sin (in that God acts to empower them with the ability to repent and/or to be righteous from their creation but they choose of their own accord to refuse to repent and/or to be righteous from their creation thus leading eventually to their permanent damnation and/or to their fall from grace.)

Note that if a Calvinist does not keep the first element in some form (that God never even intended to save some sinners from sin) the Calv becomes Arminian either explicitly or tacitly. But either way the point is to avoid even approaching Katholicism (universal salvation).

So, the next time you hear a non-universalist talking about how “hell” is “an ugly truth” that we have to put up with whether we like it or not, press him or her on what this ugly truth is supposed to be.

That some people abuse the grace of God and insist on sinning? But most universalists believe this (although Calvinists strictly speaking cannot. A Calv who tries to go this route is being either a soft Arminian, believing in the earned persistence of salvation, or is taking the fourth option.)

That people who abuse the grace of God will be punished by God? But most universalists believe that (even ultra-universalists, in regard to this life though not in the Day to come. But often even then, in a way.)

So what’s the “ugly truth” that no universalist, as such, believes??

That God is the ultimate first and final author of injustice? That would definitely be an ugly truth, and no universalist would believe it!–but even Calvinists typically try to get around such an ugly belief (becoming Arminians in the process).

That God authoritatively chooses to give up even trying to save some sinners from sin? That would definitely be an ugly truth, and no universalist would believe it!–but those who propose it often go uglier than that, to avoid even approaching universalism.

That God is eventually defeated in trying to save some sinners from sin? That would definitely be an ugly truth, and no universalist would believe it!–but those who propose it are tacitly denying supernaturalistic theism (including trinitarian theism) to be true, or else are self-contradictorily holding both beliefs and deploying one of them to avoid even approaching universalism. (And those who propose it often go even uglier than than that, to avoid approaching universalism.)

That God never even tries to save some sinners from sin, and also doesn’t persist in saving some sinners He tries to save from sin? That would definitely be an ugly truth, and no universalist would believe it!–but those who propose it aren’t even being Calvs or Arms anymore. They’re taking the fourth option and denying the actual strong selling points of both Calvinism and Arminianism, in order to avoid even approaching affirming the strong selling points of both Calvinism and Arminianism.

Which would be: God persistently acts to save all sinners from sin.

Which would be universalism.

Checkmate! :mrgreen:

Hi Jason:

I was brought up Arminian but the logic above is completely alien to me. I can’t imagine an Arm using this logic. Their argument would usually go that only those who have heard the gospel but consciously and deliberately rejected Christ would be condemned. Those who have not had opportunity to accept would not be condemned.

Great, Jason! I had noticed this in the past in my conversations with Christians from both sides (Calvs and Arms). Most of my friends lean towards Arm., but when we got down to the nitty-gritty, I came away from the argument thinking, “wait, did they just flip to being Calvs?!” A similar thing happened with discussions with Calvs–I’d go away thinking, “hold on, he just went Arm with that argument!” I never really could put my finger on what exactly happened, though, so this explanation helps. I can totally see the grid with the four soteriological options. :wink:

Amazing how, when a Calv or Arm is confronted with biblical arguments for Kath, he quickly jettisons the logic and consistency of his theological system! Even ones who take pride in having a rational, coherent theology seem to pull out all the illogical stops if they have to stand firm against the universalist heresy! :laughing:

And it gets worse. I remember hearing our pastor say that any good Calv has a healthy dose of Arm in their theology. Meaning, he recognizes that there are problems with both views, but refuses to acknowledge the third alternative as valid. Hence, the “Calminians”…

You were raised with much softer Arms than I was! :wink:

Those who didn’t hear before Christ? Hopelessly toast, the end, period. No debate. Consequently, no surprise if those after Christ who never have a chance to even refuse salvation are hopelessly lost. If God wanted something different He would have made provision, but He didn’t make provision, therefore this is what He wanted.

The Arminians in my neck of the backwoods were about evenly split as to whether someone could lose their salvation or not, although my particular congregation taught we could earn God’s persistence in salvation if we said and did the right things with the right heart. (Obviously merely saying and doing the right things wouldn’t earn it God’s persistence, we had to mean it. But we couldn’t just mean it either. :wink: )

And then they add invectives against “human reasoning” and “man-made religion”. :unamused:

When I’m accused of being too systematic about Bible exegesis and/or too reasonable about the logic of God (theo-logy), I just call it a win and move along. :slight_smile:

Am I witnessing some jingoism from some universalists? Is winning an argument the most important thing or seeking truth?

Jason:
Thanks for your reply. I think you must be correct in that my arminian heritage seems very different to yours. My father was a Pentecostal minister and I have no doubt ibn saying that he believed God’s heart was, is and ever will be for every soul who ever lived. God loves all and does all to win all but it is the nature of reality that he has constraints.
Towards the end of his life my father would often quote “shall not the judge of all the earth do right!” and he knew the judge was the King of Love.
you say:

My father would have called himself an arminianist but would not have agreed with this statement. I don’t think he was alone.
God acts for eternity as far as is ever possible to save all sinners from sin. This is His nature and He is immutable. If the nature of reality is such that a soul is eternally lost, that cannot be attributed to a lack of persistance on God’s part.

I don’t see any need for an ‘ugly truth’ nor do I see any inconsistency in holding to this position.

I happen to be a hopeful universalist myself but I fail to see where these arminianists have been ‘mated’.

Well, for what it’s worth, my “checkmate” comment was directed at both Calvinist and Arminian theology, as was Jason’s post.

He was merely demonstrating how proponents of both systems (in boiled down form) appeal to a “fourth” soteriology that disagrees with their own beliefs to some extent in order to escape universalist conclusions, and how the logical conclusions from the problems created by this ultimately bring one back to universalism.

Hi Melchizedek

That’s what I took it to mean.

And I believe I have demonstrated how that is not the case. So if there’s any ‘mate’ its stale. Or, feel free to punch holes in the logic.

Probably because I wasn’t trying to checkmate them. :slight_smile: (Not with this post anyway. :mrgreen: )

So you wouldn’t consider a sinner losing himself in sin so strongly and so far that even God cannot possibly save him an ugly truth, if you believed that to be true? Do you think that be a beautiful truth instead? Something to rejoice in and glorify God about? Did your father?

Pentacostals are usually annihilationistic. Would you consider a sinner annihilating himself through the utter strength and depravity of his sin to be a beautiful truth if it was true? Or something to grieve about? Or alternately (depending on the annihilationistic theory), if the sinner eternally damned himself in his sins so that even God could not possibly save him but had to choose between keeping him in existence as a permadamned person or actively annihilating him out of existence, would that be a truth to rejoice over and praise God about for His mighty saving victories and the righteousness of His ultimate fair-togetherness between persons?

Annihilationists usually think God is showing mercy to the sinners He annihilates. Is the failure of God to save a sinner from sin a beautiful truth? Does the annihilation of a person as the final act of love so that even God cannot possibly love the sinner any further give you cause for praise (at least in theory if not in practice)? Did your father rejoice that God stopped persisting in loving the sinner this way, or in some other way?

Annihilationists typically appeal to the free will of the sinner and God’s loving respect for this which He created as the ‘person’-ness of the person (instead of treating the creature as only a puppet or non-rational machine). Annihilation is often proposed to follow once the person has destroyed his own free will to the point where even God could not keep his free will in existence, much less ever lead the sinner to repent and be saved anymore. And in any case once the person is annihilated (whether self-annihilation, against God’s wishes and efforts or allowed by God, or by God’s direct action), the person no longer exists to even possibly have free will. Is the final hopeless destruction of free will a beautiful, glorious truth to rejoice over, especially for people who recognize the value of free will in love between persons?

In my experience, the answer to all these questions has been “no no no no no etc.”. The Arminians either focus on other things related to all this that they regard to be beautiful truths (God’s omnipotent righteousness and justice, for example, so far as they can conceive of such a thing or things), or if the connotations are approached in a way that challenges Arminianism (with universalism as an alternative or not) then so far as they insist on holding to Arm soteriology (including the annihilationist versions exemplified above) they’ll position themselves as bearers of sad or ugly truths that they are strong enough and faithful enough to proclaim even though they might prefer something else to be true (but their wishful thinking isn’t what constitutes truth–unlike my universalism or whatever!)

But that’s a universalistic position, not an Arminian. If God keeps persisting to act to save all sinners from sin, then there is still hope in God for the sinner (even if there is in practical practice a neverending stalemate). God wouldn’t annihilate the sinner out of existence in such a case, for example. That would be to finally cease to love the sinner (after the annihilation if not during or before): a final action, by God (assuming God is the one doing the annihilation instead of only allowing it–but if He allows it He’s still authoritatively responsible), for fulfilling non-fair-togetherness between persons.

Maybe your father was a minimal universalist and didn’t know it, or was afraid to show it. But if he actually believed in a final hopelessness where God stopped persisting in saving the sinner from sin, with the soul now only being punished by God without intention from God to save the person from sin, or with the soul now being sequestered off in a pocket dimension to exist independently from God and so away from God’s omnipresence (which would be a denial of supernaturalistic theism by the way), or with the soul being annihilated by God (eiither directly or by God’s permission): then God stops persisting for one reason or another. Or if God persists up to the point where the soul annihilates itself, completely against the wishes and power of God (which would also be a denial of supernaturalistic theism by the way), then God has to stop persisting because the sinner doesn’t exist anymore, even if God wouldn’t otherwise stop persisting.

In which case your father wasn’t even a minimal universalist. But neither did he in fact believe, if he believed any of those things, that God keeps on persisting forever until He saves the sinner from sin (even if that’s an ongoing stalemate that happens never to end. Which wouldn’t be much of a beautiful truth about God’s competency, in my opinion, even if it happened to be true. :wink: )

Meanwhile, did your father believe God keeps on persisting forever in trying to save rebel angels from sin (assuming he believed rebel angels exist)? Or that God even ever tried to do so?

Because if he believed rebel angels exist, but that God never even tried to save them from their sins (much less persists in doing so), then he was taking the fourth option and wasn’t, when push came to shove, an Arminian. (Nor a proponent of Calv soteriology since they would believe God persists in salvation to victory and never gives up nor is ever forced to give up.)

If on the other hand he believed God at least tried to save rebel angels from their sins but sooner or later for one or another reason gives up doing so, then he would be a consistent Arminian. (Or perhaps if he didn’t believe in the existence of rebel angels at all.) I have trouble believing he would have considered the truths involved in any such lack of persistence from God to be beautiful and praiseworthy, though.

But if he really, as you indicated, believed that God never chose to give up persisting, and was never forced to give up persisting, but always eternally persists in acting to save all sinners from sin: then he was a universalist, and not an Arminian after all, even if he misunderstood because he thought universalists necessarily had to believe God would be victorious in His persistence. But that isn’t technically necessary; a stalemate would still involve continuing ongoing persistence by God: God’s salvation would still be universally wide in scope and universally deep in persistence. (Even if not universally competent to achieve His intention of salvation, but still universally competent to prevent an outright loss.)

I feel like I should emphasize again: this article is not a deductive argument for Kath soteriology, nor against Calv or Arm soteriology (or even against Anti-Kath soteriology!–i.e. the fourth option). In fact, I am not sure I would bother calling it an argument in favor of universalism at all. That’s wasn’t my intention anyway.

There are two not-necessarily connected topics in that article, although I came to a realization about one of them (that non-universalists do with some regularity take the 4th option after all despite what I had previously expected) while mentally writing up an article on the other topic: that non-universalists often position themselves as the heroically tragic bearers of an ugly or sad truth over-against the wishful thinking–and even the willfully wishful thinking–of any universalist.

My original intention was to point out that when non-universalists do this, they ought to be pressed on what the details of that ugly truth are supposed to be. Along the way I realized (in thinking of personal examples) that Calvs and Arms often, when pressed on the details of their soteriology, take the 4th option in various ways rather than risk granting any kind of foothold for universalism.

I did not say (and continually qualified myself otherwise) that ALL CALVS AND ARMS DO THIS!!! They don’t even all go the “ugly truth” route, although that’s pretty common, too, when they start to feel like their position doesn’t seem quite good enough to be true. Oh, yes, well, things could conceivably be better, but alas the truth isn’t better than what it is, and what it is is sad or ugly or grievous or whatever even if we wished otherwise.

That isn’t an inconsistent position to take in itself–all of us who believe in sin at all find it sad, ugly and grievous, for example. But I do think non-universalist proponents shouldn’t be left to vaguely throw that out there. Whatever sad, ugly truth they think they have to affirm over-against what universalists believe needs to be spelled out.

And if they take the 4th option along the way, well that ought to be pointed out, too; as well as if they take the 4th option without appealing to the heroic value of tragic affirmation of an ugly truth.

I’ll give my own “theological” father (for want of a better word) as an example. C. S. Lewis was an extremely consistent Arminian. I do not recall him ever taking the 4th option. He affirmed the scope of God’s salvation for all sinners, including rebel angels. He may not have affirmed that God persisted much in acting to save rebel angels, but he did affirm the scope in at least a little practice (even if not in much detail), not only in principle. And as everyone knows who has even moderately read his theological work, Lewis strongly affirmed the active scope of God to save all human (and even, if any existed, all non-human but non-angelic) sinners from sin, whether they lived before Christ’s ministry, or afterward but never could hear of it from human evangelists, or heard of it but heard a poisoned version that they were in fact right to reject, or heard a good version but honestly misunderstood it and so rejected it. Lewis affirmed this so strongly that he went the logical distance and affirmed post-mortem salvation, too; and even salvation out of hell (even if he thought it rather rare).

What he didn’t affirm, as a good consistent Arminian, was the persistence. Even then he affirmed a lot of persistence; but not ever-continuing persistence.

In fact, even when (being a genius) he realized that God, being essentially love, must in fact persist in saving sinners from sin without ceasing, he would turn around in the same book (The Problem of Pain) and deny it later. That was an inconsistent theological position to take, but he was fixing an inconsistency in his Arminianism by doing so.

He called the result an ugly truth (or words to that effect), too.

:sunglasses:

You read it here first, folks.

But isn’t damnation permanant by definition?

No. My comment wasn’t aimed at you.

I assumed that when you coined the term ‘ugly truth’, you meant it to mean a truth that God, at some point in time (or eternity) stops doing all He can to save all sinners and lets them roast. That indeed would be an ‘ugly truth’.
If, in fact, you just meant any sort of bad news (such as the fact that we all experience pain and death) then I fail to see the value of coining the expression.

Definitely not so, this side of the pond. I assure you that my father was representative of all Pentecostal ministers in the AoG and Elim movements in GB and Northern Ireland and they all believed in ECT. I do not believe that the AoG in USA is annihilationist.

Irrelevant.

I’m not sure why you have taken offence or why you are bad-mouthing my late father. I have told you already that my father believed that God never stops loving ALL sinners - this is the ‘Beautiful truth’.

I’ll take your word for it. I’m not familiar with any.

There are many ‘ugly truths’ in your belief system as there are in any sane minded soul. All I am saying is that the beauty of God’s eternal, universal Love holds as true for my arminian father as it does for you and I.
Your supposed ‘arminian’ position is a strawman.

Not true.

That does not follow. You are making assumptions about the nature of eternal reality of which you and I know next to nothing.

When I used the term ‘stalemate’, I was referring to the sparring arguments envisioned by other posters as a ‘checkmate’ for UR. I was not reffering to God involving Himself in a stalemate.

Again, not necessarily true. I can put my dog down as an act of love believing that I will send him to oblivion rather than let him endure immense suffering.

the ‘non-fair-togetherness between persons’ is already fulfilled if they are suffering hellishly. (Not that I or my Dad believe in annihilationism)

Did you READ my previous post? Or didn’t I make myself clear?

I think we must have some mis-communication Jason. No doubt it’s my fault. I assure you, my father was an arminian who believed that God’s immutable nature was to Love all sinners eternally and yet some would experience ECT. I’ll not refer to any more from your post because I’m sure our wires are crossed.
I’d be happy to continue the discussion if we can uncross those wires.
God bless

Jason,

Is this quite correct? I thought the line was usually that God did all He could – giving grace to all men, but at some point nothing more can be done. Oh, but then there’s the “death deadline” – repentance is impossible after physical death. I keep forgetting about that. :confused:

So after death, either it’s too late because God says, “Time’s up!” (more common) or the man has rejected Christ so much or degraded into sinfulness to such an extent that he’s not human enough to save. I wonder if that latter option will become more prevalent as universalism becomes louder: It sounds better than to say that God shuts the door on those who want to repent.

Regarding those who have not heard, or those who lived before Christ, I’ve heard many say that God knows what they would have chosen and accepts or rejects them on that basis. Or they say, “We have to trust God to do what’s right.” Which, depending on the speaker, either means:

“We have to trust that what God does is right, even if it sounds bad to us.”
or
“We don’t know what God is going to do, but we can trust that He’ll do what’s best.”

Just thinking as I type here …
Sonia

Ah, I think I’m beginning to see the problem here. In my experience, most Arminians do affirm that God persists in acting to save sinners from sin, but He ultimately fails for at least some; usually for reasons similar to what Sonia pointed out, or because of some overriding facet of human free will. The most common form I see today is that we send ourselves to “hell” of our own free will, and that it doesn’t have anything to do with God’s lack of persistence. It’s all on us. Martin Zender addresses this in his book “The really bad thing about free will”.

Does that version ring more true with your experience, pilgrim?

Yes. Absolutely, thank you Melchizedek. The only thing I might add is that it need not even be due to some overriding facet of human free will (though this is one valid argument) but could alternatively be due to an impossibility (even to God) due to the nature of reality post-mortem (ie the die is cast).
Thank you Sonia and Melchizedek. I don’t think the ‘fourth soteriology’ is of great value because it can only apply to those who have not understood true arminianism. There may be many muddled thinkers out there but I believe we can address each one as we find them.

sounded like Jason grew up with another type of Arminian to you, Pilgirm…so i would think his logic works for that sort, if not the kind you knew. therefore while it may not be of use to you, it’s of use to him and possibly others. i think it does depend on your “flavour” of either calvinism or arminianism.

honestly i think alot of arminians are hopefully universalist, but don’t want to go that far. i certainly was…i didn’t know how to reconcile hell texts, and of course i’d been taught all the basic stuff (though my upbringing was calminian as has been said…there was a mix of free will AND predestination in there, the view that God knows the future, so He knows that person X will follow Him and person Y won’t, so He goes back in time and predestines X but not Y, and therefore X could freely choose God but not have fear of losing salvation, but Y was screwed, as God already knew he’d not follow.), but i could see these gaping holes which rather coincide with what Jason said, and i reasoned around them, but didn’t even know of the hope of universalism.

i don’t think any nastiness was intended. personally i can see the point of this, if only for the hope that a debate might help someone take on board the Beautiful Truth, and not imply that God is either too weak to save all or deliberately intends for some to never be saved.

I’m not sure I understand this position. Even for the Arminian wouldn’t “the nature of reality post-mortem” have been designed/determined by God? And if so, why would a God who genuinely wants to persist in acting to save sinners from sin (as long as is necessary) design the nature of reality post-mortem so that it would be impossible for him to do so? And if God didn’t design/determine the nature of reality post-mortem, how and why is it the way that it is?

This is a wonderfully interesting thread Jason; Thanks for sharing the progression of this idea here! A great deal of what you’ve said resonates with me.

Helpful too the push-back by pilgrim; largely explained (for me anyway) by Melchizedek’s comments.

It’s been very helpful for me to see this dynamic (thanks Jason for emphasizing this in your writings) in terms of the scope and persistence of God’s love.
Scope ==> some vs. everyone. Arms cannot imagine God’s scope is not complete and all encompassing.
Persistence ==> Calvs cannot imagine God’s persistence ending, or being thwarted in it’s desire, or failing in any way.
I very much like that you identify these points as the strong points of each of these two systems. (And why not: put ‘em together and presto! Universalism!!)

But the existence of ECT hell does have a way of forcing one to come to terms with apparent failures of either God’s scope (unthinkable for the Arminian) or His persistence (unthinkable for the Calv). And it seems almost axiomatic that a believer (of any type) does not take kindly to having his God described in terms of failure; he will do what is necessary to “protect” the image and reputation of his God.

So sure: the apparent “failings” of salvation (be it annihilation or ECT) can fairly be called “ugly truths”. Much more common in my experience is “sad” truths. (Jason included that in his list…) One author I know (an annihilationist) actually coined the term “A Deep and Dazzling Darkness” – and as I expected, the book was nothing but a strained and protracted excuse to get God off the hook for the failure of salvation in certain cases.

I thus see Jason’s idea here as a very useful and helpful attempt to gently remind both Calvs and Arms that all failures of salvation really must be laid directly at God’s feet. And failure it is; hence “ugly truths”.

And all in an effort to avoid the only system in which there is NO failure on God’s part:
Universalism…

Of course it’s unlikely that either Calvs or Arms will be inclined to accept our (Universalists) diagnoses of their “failure avoidance” thinking. (I’m not even sure Jason would agree with my way of putting it!! :laughing: ) But it’s fascinating to me to see how the insistence that the only true way God’s salvific impulse and effort can been seen to NOT be a failure (Universalism) is so roundly rejected that some actually end up tacitly embracing the WEAK parts of Calv (ie God’s scope is not total) and of Arms (God’s persistence can be ended/altered/neutered by certain things) which leaves them very close to the Anti–Kath position that Jason suggests here!!

Very interesting Jason!

Bobx3